Pre-SDA Prophecy

Pavel Mosko · May 22, 2023

Before there was Seventh Day Adventism, there were claims of prophetic revelation received by the former Millerites after the Great Disappointment when Christ did not return as expected in 1844. So this thread is going to look at that going into the Shut Door prophecy. Myles Christian a former 3rd generation Adventist has a long video that I will be eventually covering that goes deep on the context and nature of that prophecy.
But before any of that happened there is the story of Hiram Edson that happened the day after the Great Disappointment.

"One hundred and sixty-nine years ago Millerites were counting down the hours. In just two more days they expected Jesus to come. Then the sanctuary would finally be cleansed.

Jesus, however, did not come on October 22, 1844." (quote from 2013 article, now 179 years from that date).

Read more at: The Day After . . . | Adventist Review

"When October 23, 1844, dawned and the little group of Millerites huddled in Edson’s farm had managed to check the first outpouring of grief, Edson led the way to his barn. Here they gathered and spent the morning in prayer. After this season of prayer, Edson, accompanied by his friend Owen Crosier, decided to make a trip across his cornfield. They wanted to visit some of their Millerite neighbors and encourage them. As they were making their way across the field Edson stopped short and seemed to stare straight ahead. Puzzled, Crosier pulled to an abrupt stop behind him calling out “Brother Edson, what are you stopping for?”

To which Edson replied, “God is answering our morning prayer, giving light regarding our disappointment”. Edson later explained that as he was walking he felt as if a hand was laid on his shoulder and he seemed to have a vision of the heavenly sanctuary where he saw that Jesus had that very day entered into the Most Holy Place of the Heavenly Sanctuary to begin the work of judgment."

https://lineagejourney.com/read/hiram-edson-the-farmer-in-the-cornfield/

SabbathBlessings · May 22, 2023

Pavel Mosko said:
Before there was Seventh Day Adventism, there were claims of prophetic revelation received by the former Millerites after the Great Disappointment when Christ did not return as expected in 1844. So this thread is going to look at that going into the Shut Door prophecy. Myles Christian a former 3rd generation Adventist has a long video that I will be eventually covering that goes deep on the context and nature of that prophecy.

But before any of that happened there is the story of Hiram Edson that happened the day after the Great Disappointment.

"One hundred and sixty-nine years ago Millerites were counting down the hours. In just two more days they expected Jesus to come. Then the sanctuary would finally be cleansed.

Jesus, however, did not come on October 22, 1844."

Read more at: The Day After . . . | Adventist Review

"When October 23, 1844, dawned and the little group of Millerites huddled in Edson’s farm had managed to check the first outpouring of grief, Edson led the way to his barn. Here they gathered and spent the morning in prayer. After this season of prayer, Edson, accompanied by his friend Owen Crosier, decided to make a trip across his cornfield. They wanted to visit some of their Millerite neighbors and encourage them. As they were making their way across the field Edson stopped short and seemed to stare straight ahead. Puzzled, Crosier pulled to an abrupt stop behind him calling out “Brother Edson, what are you stopping for?”

To which Edson replied, “God is answering our morning prayer, giving light regarding our disappointment”. Edson later explained that as he was walking he felt as if a hand was laid on his shoulder and he seemed to have a vision of the heavenly sanctuary where he saw that Jesus had that very day entered into the Most Holy Place of the Heavenly Sanctuary to begin the work of judgment."

https://lineagejourney.com/read/hiram-edson-the-farmer-in-the-cornfield/

You need to keep in mind of some basic facts that tend to get overlooked.

The SDA's did not "predict" the Second Coming of Jesus Christ in 1844 and the SDA church did not form until careful study of the scriptures close to 20 years later in 1863.

The Millerites in the time of 1844 was led by a Baptist minister William Miller. EGW was 17 years old in 1844 and was a Methodist at the time. I know fact checking is not up there in all of these plethora of SDA threads you create, but some people still think its important.

What 1844 did provide is a clear timeline of where we are. God has a heavenly Sacturary that the earthy one was modeled after Hebrews 8:5 so the timeline was right, just the wrong event. If you carefully study the scripture in Daniel and Revelations, it matches history to a tee up to 1844.

Here's some in depth bible study on Revelation and Daniel easy to understand chapter by chapter on understanding these tough chapters in scriptures. I would recommend having your bible handy and a notepad for notetaking. There are 112 30 minute bible studies going through each part of Revelation and Daniel.

Gregory Thompson · May 22, 2023

Pavel Mosko said:
Before there was Seventh Day Adventism, there were claims of prophetic revelation received by the former Millerites after the Great Disappointment when Christ did not return as expected in 1844. So this thread is going to look at that going into the Shut Door prophecy. Myles Christian a former 3rd generation Adventist has a long video that I will be eventually covering that goes deep on the context and nature of that prophecy.
But before any of that happened there is the story of Hiram Edson that happened the day after the Great Disappointment.

"One hundred and sixty-nine years ago Millerites were counting down the hours. In just two more days they expected Jesus to come. Then the sanctuary would finally be cleansed.

Jesus, however, did not come on October 22, 1844." (quote from 2013 article, now 179 years from that date).

Read more at: The Day After . . . | Adventist Review

"When October 23, 1844, dawned and the little group of Millerites huddled in Edson’s farm had managed to check the first outpouring of grief, Edson led the way to his barn. Here they gathered and spent the morning in prayer. After this season of prayer, Edson, accompanied by his friend Owen Crosier, decided to make a trip across his cornfield. They wanted to visit some of their Millerite neighbors and encourage them. As they were making their way across the field Edson stopped short and seemed to stare straight ahead. Puzzled, Crosier pulled to an abrupt stop behind him calling out “Brother Edson, what are you stopping for?”

To which Edson replied, “God is answering our morning prayer, giving light regarding our disappointment”. Edson later explained that as he was walking he felt as if a hand was laid on his shoulder and he seemed to have a vision of the heavenly sanctuary where he saw that Jesus had that very day entered into the Most Holy Place of the Heavenly Sanctuary to begin the work of judgment."

https://lineagejourney.com/read/hiram-edson-the-farmer-in-the-cornfield/

What comes to mind is, without the great disappointment the modern version of church prophecy would not exist. The concept of a rubber prophecy is instrumental to continue a trend of unfulfilled prophecies and people still calling themselves a prophet.

This great disappointment eventually evolved into the contemporary, constant and continual disappointment.

The devil's children prophecy that originally was spoken against Ukraine, then later on the rest of the world has a similar quality.

Pavel Mosko · May 22, 2023

Michael Collum said:
What comes to mind is, without the great disappointment the modern version of church prophecy would not exist. The concept of a rubber prophecy is instrumental to continue a trend of unfulfilled prophecies and people still calling themselves a prophet.

This great disappointment eventually evolved into the contemporary, constant and continual disappointment.

The devil's children prophecy that originally was spoken against Ukraine, then later on the rest of the world has a similar quality.

Yes, what you're saying is very true based on a term "Present Truth" that seems lead people to a lot of elasticity in regard to redefining prophecy.

I got a lot of experience talking about this in relation to the modern Prophetic movement, in the so called NAR (New Apostolic Revolution) as it later got termed. Many of the later Apostles of that movement believed they would some day "set the Church in order", even though it comes out in many ways that such people's understanding of doctrine, the Bible, Church history is very lacking when it comes to such ambitions.

I have had in mind for a long time a thread, Blog post or series and video on "Why Modern Prophets are without Excuse" on this kind of subject. It details a lot of scripture that most folks would be aware of. It also debunks the frequent excuses that prophets like to make. Probably the most interesting point that I will lift came from a small time prophet who was perturbed by such things. He had a high quality control standards and believed people should be more rigorous when it came to praying about and sitting on the words they get and only release things that they are 100% sure of.

Anyway this guy mentioned the verse of saint Paul that points to the fact in Hebrews 8:7 that we got a "Better Gospel" than the one that OT prophets had. So the question is "Why is there so much false prophecy now, when we have no record of any death penalty type case for any ancient prophet of Israel giving bogus words in the name of Yahweh? Of course, the biggest reason is self-evident to most people, in Christianity excommunication is the toughest penalty that can be given for church discipline. And most the time even that and other church discipline has no real teeth in a free society where people can just go to some other church in town.

Pavel Mosko · May 22, 2023

SabbathBlessings said:
You need to keep in mind of some basic facts that tend to get overlooked.

The SDA's did not "predict" the Second Coming of Jesus Christ in 1844 and the SDA church did not form until careful study of the scriptures close to 20 years later in 1863.

The Millerites in the time of 1844 was led by a Baptist minister William Miller. EGW was 17 years old in 1844 and was a Methodist at the time. I know fact checking is not up there in all of these plethora of SDA threads you create, but some people still think its important.

I get all of that, but will also note the following things:

1 If a person is really invested in the history of Christian doctrine, the Bible and Church history, then they will find Millerism and Adventist claims spurious. Basically, no Christian previously believed in anything like this. This is actually something that White indirectly admits herself in that last bold dark blue link at the end of the post. But this is a big red flag for Believers of historic Christianity because it is like "preaching another Gospel", "laying a new foundation" etc. and there are explicit scriptures against that.

2) Ellen White defended Miller till the very end.

"I have seen that the chart of 1843 was directed by the hand of the Lord, and that the figures were as He wanted it, that his hand was on the figures and hid an error in some of the figures, so that no one could see it until His hand was removed. " First writings, p. 74

The End of Chapter 21 "The Great Controversy".

"Angels of God accompanied Wm. Miller in his mission. He was firm and undaunted. He fearlessly proclaimed the message committed to his trust. A world lying in wickedness, and a cold, worldly church were enough to call into action his energy, and lead him to willingly endure toil, privation and suffering. Although opposed by professed Christians and the world, and buffeted by Satan and his angels, he ceased not to preach the everlasting gospel to crowds wherever he was invited, and sound the cry, Fear God and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come."

The Great Controversy: Chapter 22. William Miller

I am having trouble looking up this the original quote of the meme below but it's original context was defending William Miller (I successfully brought it up on EGW writings website a week or two ago). Somehow however the White Estate web data base does not seem to be working for me today. But the "mass of scripture" quote was said directly in the context of Henry Miller, specifically of him date setting in spite of Christ warning against that specific thing and other scriptures that spoke people used criticize Miller and later White.

This version of "The Great Controversy" seems much more of an explicit defense of Miller by White

What did Ellen G. White say? | WilliamMiller1844.com

The Spirit of Prophecy, volume 4 (1884 Great Controversy) has this to say about William Miller. Its author, Ellen White lived and experienced what it was like to be a Millerite believer.

www.williammiller1844.com

Pavel Mosko · May 22, 2023

I scooped this timeline from my Ellen White Facebook group.

Seventh-day Adventist's entire Sanctuary doctrine is founded upon sinking sand. And it was upon this doctrine that they (the SDAs) eventually separated themselves from the other Millerite groups.
Chronological Order of the development.

1832 - William Miller determines that Jesus would return [to earth] sometime between March 21, 1843 and March 21, 1844. He begins to preach this message on his own time.

1840 - EGW becomes a follower of Miller.
{EGW later between 1840 & 1843 wrote this: "In company with my friends I attended these meetings and listened to the startling announcement that Christ was coming in 1843, only a few short years in the future. Mr. Miller traced down the prophecies with an exactness that struck conviction to the hearts of his hearers. He dwelt upon the prophetic periods, and brought many proofs to strengthen his position." So EGW was certain the timing was correct!}

March 21, 1843 - Jesus does not return. (strike 1)
{EGW wrote this: "God directed the mind of William Miller to the prophecies and gave him great light upon the book of Revelation." "Angels of God repeatedly visited that chosen one [Miller], to guide his mind and open to his understanding prophecies which had ever been dark to God's people."}
April, 1843 - W. Miller revisits his prediction and determines that it is for certain that He will return on March 21, 1844.

March 21, 1844 - Jesus does not return. (strike 2)
March 28, 1844 - W. Miller again revisits his prediction and determines that it was flawed due to the difference between the Rabbinical calendar and the Karaite calendar, the actual date of Jesus return was to be April, 18, 1844.

April 18, 1844 - Jesus does not return. (strike 3)
{At this point you would have expected the majority of Miller's followers to have left him, but no, they oddly didn't care that Miller had been wrong on three different occasions in his attempt to predict the exact day of Jesus' return} {EGW however felt different as numerous Preachers were responding to the Millerite claim by pointing out the passage in Matthew 24:36, but to that EGW had this to say: "The preaching of definite time called forth great opposition from all classes, from the minister in the pulpit down to the most reckless, heaven-daring sinner. "No man knoweth the day nor the hour," was heard from the hypocritical minister and the bold scoffer." EGW further said this: "Many shepherds of the flock, who professed to love Jesus, said that they had no opposition to the preaching of Christ's coming, but they objected to the definite time. God's all-seeing eye read their hearts. They did not love Jesus near. They knew that their unchristian lives would not stand the test, for they were not walking in the humble path marked out by Him."}

August, 1844 - Samuel Snow comes to W. Miller's rescue with his new interpretation. This "new" interpretation said that they had been looking at the beginning rather than at the end of the event, and declared that Jesus would return on the Karaite calendar "day of atonement" in 1844, or better known as October 22, 1844.

October 22, 1844 - Jesus does not return. (strike 4)
{At this point the Millerite movement began to break apart with each group declaring themselves the "true" Advent people and these groups formed differing doctrines (one group that came from this is the JW's), the largest group that remained eventually became the SDAs that we know today}

October 23, 1844 - Hiram Edson states that he believes that "light would be given" concerning this belief.
{Shortly after this time Edson claims to have received a revelation and joins with O. R. L. Crosier and F. B. Hahn and they come up with the idea that Miller's understanding was only flawed in the locale, it wasn't the earthly sanctuary (i.e., Earth), it was the heavenly one.} {EGW went even further and declared that the failed earthly fulfillment prediction was because God wanted His people to be disappointed, so to cause this God covered part of the vision with His hand, forcing W. Miller to make false claims! "God designed that His people should meet with a disappointment."; "His hand covered a mistake in the reckoning of the prophetic periods."}

{EGW in February of 1845 claimed to have had a "vision" which allegedly confirmed the invisible fulfillment of Jesus moving between the apartments of the Sanctuary (Interestingly this first vision contained nothing about the Sabbath as the test for God's people, that didn't get added until March of 1849, only 7 months after she suddenly decided the Sabbath was super important!)}

{When Miller eventually confessed that he was wrong in his predictions, and wrong to attempt to set the day and hour of Christ's return, EGW had this to say: "God suffered him to come under the power of Satan, and death to have dominion over him. He hid him in the grave, away from those who were constantly drawing him from God. Moses erred just as he was about to enter the promised land. So also, I saw that Wm. Miller erred as he was soon to enter the heavenly Canaan, in suffering his influence to go against the truth. Others led him to this. Others must account for it. But angels watch the precious dust of this servant of God, and he will come forth at the sound of the last trump. —Spiritual Gifts, Volume 1 (1858), page 168"}

SabbathBlessings · May 22, 2023

Pavel Mosko said:
I scooped this timeline from my Ellen White Facebook group.

Seventh-day Adventist's entire Sanctuary doctrine is founded upon sinking sand. And it was upon this doctrine that they (the SDAs) eventually separated themselves from the other Millerite groups.
Chronological Order of the development.

1832 - William Miller determines that Jesus would return [to earth] sometime between March 21, 1843 and March 21, 1844. He begins to preach this message on his own time.

1840 - EGW becomes a follower of Miller.
{EGW later between 1840 & 1843 wrote this: "In company with my friends I attended these meetings and listened to the startling announcement that Christ was coming in 1843, only a few short years in the future. Mr. Miller traced down the prophecies with an exactness that struck conviction to the hearts of his hearers. He dwelt upon the prophetic periods, and brought many proofs to strengthen his position." So EGW was certain the timing was correct!}

March 21, 1843 - Jesus does not return. (strike 1)
{EGW wrote this: "God directed the mind of William Miller to the prophecies and gave him great light upon the book of Revelation." "Angels of God repeatedly visited that chosen one [Miller], to guide his mind and open to his understanding prophecies which had ever been dark to God's people."}
April, 1843 - W. Miller revisits his prediction and determines that it is for certain that He will return on March 21, 1844.

March 21, 1844 - Jesus does not return. (strike 2)
March 28, 1844 - W. Miller again revisits his prediction and determines that it was flawed due to the difference between the Rabbinical calendar and the Karaite calendar, the actual date of Jesus return was to be April, 18, 1844.

April 18, 1844 - Jesus does not return. (strike 3)
{At this point you would have expected the majority of Miller's followers to have left him, but no, they oddly didn't care that Miller had been wrong on three different occasions in his attempt to predict the exact day of Jesus' return} {EGW however felt different as numerous Preachers were responding to the Millerite claim by pointing out the passage in Matthew 24:36, but to that EGW had this to say: "The preaching of definite time called forth great opposition from all classes, from the minister in the pulpit down to the most reckless, heaven-daring sinner. "No man knoweth the day nor the hour," was heard from the hypocritical minister and the bold scoffer." EGW further said this: "Many shepherds of the flock, who professed to love Jesus, said that they had no opposition to the preaching of Christ's coming, but they objected to the definite time. God's all-seeing eye read their hearts. They did not love Jesus near. They knew that their unchristian lives would not stand the test, for they were not walking in the humble path marked out by Him."}

August, 1844 - Samuel Snow comes to W. Miller's rescue with his new interpretation. This "new" interpretation said that they had been looking at the beginning rather than at the end of the event, and declared that Jesus would return on the Karaite calendar "day of atonement" in 1844, or better known as October 22, 1844.

October 22, 1844 - Jesus does not return. (strike 4)
{At this point the Millerite movement began to break apart with each group declaring themselves the "true" Advent people and these groups formed differing doctrines (one group that came from this is the JW's), the largest group that remained eventually became the SDAs that we know today}

October 23, 1844 - Hiram Edson states that he believes that "light would be given" concerning this belief.
{Shortly after this time Edson claims to have received a revelation and joins with O. R. L. Crosier and F. B. Hahn and they come up with the idea that Miller's understanding was only flawed in the locale, it wasn't the earthly sanctuary (i.e., Earth), it was the heavenly one.} {EGW went even further and declared that the failed earthly fulfillment prediction was because God wanted His people to be disappointed, so to cause this God covered part of the vision with His hand, forcing W. Miller to make false claims! "God designed that His people should meet with a disappointment."; "His hand covered a mistake in the reckoning of the prophetic periods."}

{EGW in February of 1845 claimed to have had a "vision" which allegedly confirmed the invisible fulfillment of Jesus moving between the apartments of the Sanctuary (Interestingly this first vision contained nothing about the Sabbath as the test for God's people, that didn't get added until March of 1849, only 7 months after she suddenly decided the Sabbath was super important!)}

{When Miller eventually confessed that he was wrong in his predictions, and wrong to attempt to set the day and hour of Christ's return, EGW had this to say: "God suffered him to come under the power of Satan, and death to have dominion over him. He hid him in the grave, away from those who were constantly drawing him from God. Moses erred just as he was about to enter the promised land. So also, I saw that Wm. Miller erred as he was soon to enter the heavenly Canaan, in suffering his influence to go against the truth. Others led him to this. Others must account for it. But angels watch the precious dust of this servant of God, and he will come forth at the sound of the last trump. —Spiritual Gifts, Volume 1 (1858), page 168"}

You might consider a more reliable source considering most you posted is either false or out of context.. In 1840 EGW was 13 years old and was a Methodist. The SDA church was not formed until 1863 20 something years after 1844 which was led by a baptist minster, not EGW. It’s easy to find misleading information on just about every denomination on the internet. If you really want to know what SDA’s believe and are trying to be “unbiased” just go to the source What do Seventh Day Adventists Really Believe? - Adventist.org. I know in your last thread about SDA‘s the stuff you found on the internet turned out not to even be the SDA church.

If you really want to understand what happened in 1844 and the history of the SDA church from an official SDA source here you go…

If you want to understand the sanctuary from an Official SDA Pastor here you go and I recommend having your bibles ready.

SabbathBlessings · May 22, 2023

Pavel Mosko said:
I get all of that, but will also note the following things:

1 If a person is really invested in the history of Christian doctrine, the Bible and Church history, then they will find Millerism and Adventist claims spurious. Basically, no Christian previously believed in anything like this. This is actually something that White indirectly admits herself in that last bold dark blue link at the end of the post. But this is a big red flag for Believers of historic Christianity because it is like "preaching another Gospel", "laying a new foundation" etc. and there are explicit scriptures against that.

2) Ellen White defended Miller till the very end.

"I have seen that the chart of 1843 was directed by the hand of the Lord, and that the figures were as He wanted it, that his hand was on the figures and hid an error in some of the figures, so that no one could see it until His hand was removed. " First writings, p. 74

The End of Chapter 21 "The Great Controversy".

"Angels of God accompanied Wm. Miller in his mission. He was firm and undaunted. He fearlessly proclaimed the message committed to his trust. A world lying in wickedness, and a cold, worldly church were enough to call into action his energy, and lead him to willingly endure toil, privation and suffering. Although opposed by professed Christians and the world, and buffeted by Satan and his angels, he ceased not to preach the everlasting gospel to crowds wherever he was invited, and sound the cry, Fear God and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come."

The Great Controversy: Chapter 22. William Miller

Scripture says His way is in the sanctuary Psalms 77:13 not many churches talk about or understand the sanctuary. The earthy sanctuary was modeled after God’s heavenly sanctuary And its a really interesting and important study….

I’ll post an in-depth video so you can get your information directly from the source…

I am having trouble looking up this the original quote of the meme below but it's original context was defending William Miller (I successfully brought it up on EGW writings website a week or two ago). Somehow however the White Estate web data base does not seem to be working for me today. But the "mass of scripture" quote was said directly in the context of Henry Miller, specifically of him date setting in spite of Christ warning against that specific thing and other scriptures that spoke people used criticize Miller and later White.

This version of "The Great Controversy" seems much more of an explicit defense of Miller by White

What did Ellen G. White say? | WilliamMiller1844.com

The Spirit of Prophecy, volume 4 (1884 Great Controversy) has this to say about William Miller. Its author, Ellen White lived and experienced what it was like to be a Millerite believer.

www.williammiller1844.com

View attachment 331368

I like the picture you provided and one thing I noticed in almost every thread you create and from your posts is the lack of scripture.

In regards to the one scripture you posted in this thread..

Pavel Mosko said:
anyway this guy mentioned the verse of saint Paul that points to the fact in Hebrews 8:7 that we got a "Better Gospel" than the one that OT prophets had.

From my understanding of the gospel there is just one gospel, not two.

Gal 1:6 There is just one gospel
Gal 3:8 The gospel was preached to Abraham
Heb 4:2 the Gospel was preached to us just as it was to them also
Revelation 14:6 It’s an everlasting gospel

Pavel Mosko · May 23, 2023

SabbathBlessings said:
From my understanding of the gospel there is just one gospel, not two.

Yeah, that kind of is the problem. Because you SDA got Jesus acting like a Cohen / Aaronic priest in your doctrine/theology and art. The whole point of that chapter is it mentions how the new covenant is better than the old covenant.

Pavel Mosko · May 23, 2023

SabbathBlessings said:
I like the picture you provided and one thing I noticed in almost every thread you create and from your posts is the lack of scripture.

In regards to the one scripture you posted in this thread..

I reference scripture all the time. I do not proof text and drop scripture just to virtue signal. I have had plenty of experience with Pentecostals and Charismatics that do that, quoting scripture out of context and trying to use that to justify some doctrine or practice that is questionable (something that person would not advocate if they had a more thorough understanding of the Bible and Christian historic doctrine and practice.)

SabbathBlessings · May 23, 2023

Pavel Mosko said:
Yeah, that kind of is the problem. Because you SDA got Jesus acting like a Cohen / Aaronic priest in your doctrine/theology and art. The whole point of that chapter is it mentions how the new covenant is better than the old covenant.

I'm not sure what "you SDA" means, but doesn't sound like its meant to be very pleasant.

Regarding the New Covenant, why does the scripture say its a better covenant....? A covenant mind you means an agreement.

Hebrews 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

It wasn't God's law that was the problem with the Old Covenant as the law of God is perfect Psalms 19:7 and you cannot improve on perfection. The Old Covenant was based on the people doing. The New Covenant is what God does.

Same laws- God now writes them in the hearts and minds of His people Hebrews 8:10 same law that Jermiah knew in his day which includes the Ten Commandments Jer 31:31-34

Which is why Jesus and the apostles all teach on the Ten Commandments and kept them as our example to follow. Jesus is now our High Priest in the New Covenant and kept and taught the same laws as our example. Do you consider Jesus a Cohen / Aaronic priest. John 15:10, 1 John 5:3, 1 Cor 7:19, Luke 4:16-30, Matthew 5:19-30, Matthew 19:17-19, Matthew 15:3-9, John 14:15, Revelation 14:12, Revelation 22:14-15

Pavel Mosko · May 23, 2023

SabbathBlessings said:
Which is why Jesus and the apostles all teach on the Ten Commandments and kept them as our example to follow. Jesus is now our High Priest in the New Covenant and kept and taught the same laws as our example. Do you consider Jesus a Cohen / Aaronic priest. John 15:10, 1 John 5:3, 1 Cor 7:19, Luke 4:16-30, Matthew 5:19-30, Matthew 19:17-19, Matthew 15:3-9, John 14:15, Revelation 14:12, Revelation 22:14-15

Jesus is a high priest in the Line of Melchizedek. Big difference. The Aaronic priest was a sinful man, who gave offerings that were temporary band aids for the sinful condition of Israel.

Jesus however gave himself once and for all for our sins, and this finished work was done at the cross. While you guys have it only the penalty of sin, being completed at the cross, where the Atonement is still to be made.

You guys conflate Jesus' role as intercessor and mediator with the Atonement, but without that difference there would not be much reason for SDA.

And SDA by the way means Seventh Day Adventism or Seventh Day Adventists.

Pavel Mosko · May 23, 2023

SabbathBlessings said:
Regarding the New Covenant, why does the scripture say its a better covenant....? A covenant mind you means an agreement.

Hebrews 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

It wasn't God's law that was the problem with the Old Covenant as the law of God is perfect Psalms 19:7 and you cannot improve on perfection. The Old Covenant was based on the people doing. The New Covenant is what God does.

Same laws- God now writes them in the hearts and minds of His people Hebrews 8:10 same law that Jermiah knew in his day which includes the Ten Commandments Jer 31:31-34

Paul points out that the Old Covenant was not perfect.

1) It involved the shedding of blood for sins.

2) He points out how one of the functions of the Law was to increase sin and to point to the need for a savior.

As I pointed out a number of times SDA like to conflate the 10 commandments and The Commandments of Jesus etc. but they are not the same. I will however at least agree with the notion that the goal of the Decalogue is to give an objective standard for Christian morality. The problem is that the so-called division of Moral law and Ritual law is not present in the actual scriptures! That is an artificial distinction that has to be read via visions, and tradition of the SDA.

Jesus actual commands etc. are stricter that the law in some ways governing things like the heart, but better when it comes to the minutiae of the law, that the halacha regulations tended to cover.

BobRyan · May 23, 2023

Pavel Mosko said:
I get all of that, but will also note the following things:

1 If a person is really invested in the history of Christian doctrine, the Bible and Church history, then they will find Millerism and Adventist claims spurious. Basically, no Christian previously believed in anything like this.

IF you take your same "not looking at the Bible - just want to see popular views" solution then the early Christian church faced many of the same problems in that no one before them predicted that the Messiah was going to be crucified -- in fact John the baptizer complained about the fact that Jesus did not appear to be fulfilling the mission everyone was expecting for the Messiah.

SabbathBlessings · May 23, 2023

Pavel Mosko said:
Paul points out that the Old Covenant was not perfect.

1) It involved the shedding of blood for sins.

2) He points out how one of the functions of the Law was to increase sin and to point to the need for a savior.

As I pointed out a number of times SDA like to conflate the 10 commandments and The Commandments of Jesus etc. but they are not the same. I will however at least agree with the notion that the goal of the Decalogue is to give an objective standard for Christian morality. The problem is that the so-called division of Moral law and Ritual law is not present in the actual scriptures! That is an artificial distinction that has to be read via visions, and tradition of the SDA.

Jesus actual commands etc. are stricter that the law in some ways governing things like the heart, but better when it comes to the minutiae of the law, that the halacha regulations tended to cover.

A covenant is an agreement- the agreement was not perfect, not the Ten Commandments which was written personally by God and spoken personally by God. God is perfect how could the law He personally wrote not be? The Ten Commandments was placed in the ark of the Covenant in the Most Holy of God's temple that the earthy temple was modeled after God's heavenly Temple. Hebrews 8:5 and is in heaven Revelation 11:19 God's law IS Perfect Psalms 19:7

Animal Sacrifices was used in the Old Covenant as a way of atonement for the forgiveness of sins. Jesus became our Sacrificial Lamb so we no longer sacrifice animals for the forgiveness of sins Hebrews 10:10, Col 2:14-17 we can go directly to Jesus who is now our High Priest. Sin is still the same as in the Old Covenant- the law of God and Paul points right to the Ten to define what sin is when broken. Romans 7:7 Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4

Jesus quoted and taught directly from the Ten Commandments Matthew 15:3-9, Matthew 19:17-19, Matthew 5:19-30 and came to do the will of the Father John 6:38 and came to magnify the law Isaiah 42:21 which means make greater and not to destroy. Matthew 5:17 so no disagreement over the Ten Commandments by Jesus God or the Holy Spirit, which is why they are kept by God's people right to the end of time Revelation 22:14-15 Revelation 14:12 and why the devil goes to war with those who still keep God's commandments Revelation 12:17, we just need to decide which side of the war are we going to be on.

BobRyan · May 23, 2023

Pavel Mosko said:
Paul points out that the Old Covenant was not perfect.

The Old Covenant is "obey and live" as we see in Gal 3 and in Exodus 2.

It does not work for fallen humanity except as Paul says in Rom 3:19-20 to convict all the world of sin ... for "all have sinned" Rom 3:23.

A better understanding would help your view.

Pavel Mosko said:
1) It involved the shedding of blood for sins.

Heb 9 "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins".

That is not the problem with the OC. The problem with it is that all have sinned.

Pavel Mosko said:
2) He points out how one of the functions of the Law was to increase sin and to point to the need for a savior.

To increase the guilt in that "through the law comes the knowledge of sin" Rom 3:19-20

The problem is not the LAW "do not take God's name in vain" the problem is the sinner who takes god's name in vain. We can only be forgiven through the gospel.

Pavel Mosko said:
As I pointed out a number of times SDA like to conflate the 10 commandments and The Commandments of Jesus etc

As I pointed out a number of times the New Testament says JESUS is the one speaking at Sinai - His commandments (Heb 8:6-12)

Since you don't read the posts you miss a lot of these answers to your suggestions.

Jesus quotes the Law of Moses as "The Commandments" in Matt 19 and Paul does the same thing in Rom 13. Without actually reading ther threads, reading the posts in your own threads -- a lot of this gets missed by you.

Pavel Mosko said:
I will however at least agree with the notion that the goal of the Decalogue is to give an objective standard for Christian morality.

Paul says through the law comes the knowledge of what sin is" - Rom 3:20 -- consider the option of agreeing with scripture.
1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the LAW"

Pavel Mosko said:
The problem is that the so-called division of Moral law and Ritual law is not present in the actual scriptures!

Until read 1 Cor 7:19 and Hebrews 10. You would know all of this if you read the posts in your own threads.

Pavel Mosko said:
That is an artificial distinction that has to be read via visions, and tradition of the SDA.

Until you read my signature line and see that almost all Christian denomination on planet Earth make that same distinction as do SDAs between ceremonial laws ended in Heb 10:4-12 at the cross and moral laws like the TEN that continue as Paul affirms in Eph 6:2 where IN that TEN - the "First commandment with a promise is -- Honor your father and mother".

If you read the posts in your own threads you would already know this.

SabbathBlessings · May 23, 2023

Pavel Mosko said:
Jesus is a high priest in the Line of Melchizedek. Big difference. The Aaronic priest was a sinful man, who gave offerings that were temporary band aids for the sinful condition of Israel.

Jesus however gave himself once and for all for our sins, and this finished work was done at the cross. While you guys have it only the penalty of sin, being completed at the cross, where the Atonement is still to be made.

You guys conflate Jesus' role as intercessor and mediator with the Atonement, but without that difference there would not be much reason for SDA.

And SDA by the way means Seventh Day Adventism or Seventh Day Adventists.

Are you saying we are free to be lawless? That Jesus did not die to save us from sin as is stated Matthew 1:21 but so that we can continue to sin? Do you have a text that says we are free to sin?

Acts 2:38 says: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Repent means we need to ask Jesus for forgiveness of sin, when we sin. Repentance means there is a change of heart, no longer wanting to be a slave to sin, but instead be a slave to God in obedience to Him. Romans 6:16

Gregory Thompson · May 23, 2023

Pavel Mosko said:
Yes, what you're saying is very true based on a term "Present Truth" that seems lead people to a lot of elasticity in regard to redefining prophecy.

I got a lot of experience talking about this in relation to the modern Prophetic movement, in the so called NAR (New Apostolic Revolution) as it later got termed. Many of the later Apostles of that movement believed they would some day "set the Church in order", even though it comes out in many ways that such people's understanding of doctrine, the Bible, Church history is very lacking when it comes to such ambitions.

I have had in mind for a long time a thread, Blog post or series and video on "Why Modern Prophets are without Excuse" on this kind of subject. It details a lot of scripture that most folks would be aware of. It also debunks the frequent excuses that prophets like to make. Probably the most interesting point that I will lift came from a small time prophet who was perturbed by such things. He had a high quality control standards and believed people should be more rigorous when it came to praying about and sitting on the words they get and only release things that they are 100% sure of.

Anyway this guy mentioned the verse of saint Paul that points to the fact in Hebrews 8:7 that we got a "Better Gospel" than the one that OT prophets had. So the question is "Why is there so much false prophecy now, when we have no record of any death penalty type case for any ancient prophet of Israel giving bogus words in the name of Yahweh? Of course, the biggest reason is self-evident to most people, in Christianity excommunication is the toughest penalty that can be given for church discipline. And most the time even that and other church discipline has no real teeth in a free society where people can just go to some other church in town.

Have you considered the Orthodox prophecy about the Ukraine war, basically saying God is advocating the sacrifice of an entire generation of children? Human sacrifice is so abhorred by God that He sent no one else as a sacrifice but His son. The mutation of the prophecy that says this has to happen around the world .. is advocating human sacrifice, something God opposes.

Have you considered the Catholic prophecies about Mary apparitions? This reminds me of that woman presence people said they saw in the Lakeland revival under the NAR movement. That mystical thing the catholic church does to Mary that the Orthodox do not, comes off as worshiping a goddess. As it is said about testing prophecies, abstain from the appearance of evil.

I guess the first considered movement is the NAR prophet movement, because they make a point of being noticed. This movement seems very obsessed with proving they are right, and using gift displays to prove their doctrine is correct. Regarding prophets, Jesus said we know by their fruit if they are false prophets. Jesus did say signs would be following those who believe, but also said "I never knew you" to people who claimed to have signs following .. so the character matters most, and this prophetic movement doesn't get results in this area. This is important because in the time of Jeremiah God's complaint about the false prophets was that they did not turn the people away from their sins.

Have you considered the trend among baptist pastors to arrange their selection of scriptures to style "the pastor" as the prophet of the church? So everyone prays for the pastor, and coincidentally their thoughts end up in his head .. not telepathy though .. regardless of how it manifests .. how dare you think that?

The point of this is to illustrate that the church has a problem with labelling occult things, "prophetic."

Not sure what God is going to do about it, but it has been an object of prayer.

BobRyan · May 23, 2023

Michael Collum said:
Have you considered the Orthodox prophecy about the Ukraine war,

There is an orthodox church in Ukraine and another version of an Orthodox church in Russia - which of those two Orthodox churches are you talking about for that prophecy??

And there is yet another here in America

Open Letter to the Synod of the Orthodox Church in America on the War in Ukraine

by Archpriest Denis J. M. Bradley His Beatitude, Metropolitan TikhonMembers of the Holy Synod of the Orthodox Church in America Dear Archpastors: We[1] write as painfully concerned, truth–seeking, and truth–committed Orthodox Christians: we are chagrined clergy and lay members of the Orthodox...

publicorthodoxy.org

BobRyan · May 23, 2023

Pavel Mosko said:
You guys conflate Jesus' role as intercessor and mediator with the Atonement, but without that difference there would not be much reason for SDA.

So then you have or have not read scripture regarding the high priest and the "Sin offering" on "the Day of Atonement" teaching of God in Leviticus 16. Or is it your POV That SDAs wrote that chapter of the Bible?

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