LCMS Evolution, Age of Universe

FaithT · Mar 6, 2023

I’m LCMS and there are two things about my faith that really bother me. I’m a theistic evolutionist but LCMS church teaching is against evolution and that the earth and universe are around 6000 years old.
Who here that are LCMS are theistic evolutionists and disagree with the church teachings on these two things? Anybody?

Also, for those of you who are creationists and believe the universe is 6000 years old, can you point me to CURRENT scientific information that has strong evidence for your position, that’s not from the websites Answers In Genesis, Creation.com, or ICR? I believe I’ve read all that they have to say on the subject.

I mean there are fossils and artifacts that date to way beyond 6000 years and all the evidence seems to point to evolution.

FaithT · Mar 7, 2023

Anyone?

Job 33:6 · Mar 25, 2023

FaithT said:
I’m LCMS and there are two things about my faith that really bother me. I’m a theistic evolutionist but LCMS church teaching is against evolution and that the earth and universe are around 6000 years old.
Who here that are LCMS are theistic evolutionists and disagree with the church teachings on these two things? Anybody?

Also, for those of you who are creationists and believe the universe is 6000 years old, can you point me to CURRENT scientific information that has strong evidence for your position, that’s not from the websites Answers In Genesis, Creation.com, or ICR? I believe I’ve read all that they have to say on the subject.

I mean there are fossils and artifacts that date to way beyond 6000 years and all the evidence seems to point to evolution.

All is answered here.

FaithT · Mar 25, 2023

Job 33:6 said:
All is answered here.

Are you LCMS? And if so, do you agree or disagree with the teachings of those two things?

JM · Mar 26, 2023

FaithT said:
I’m LCMS and there are two things about my faith that really bother me. I’m a theistic evolutionist but LCMS church teaching is against evolution and that the earth and universe are around 6000 years old.
Who here that are LCMS are theistic evolutionists and disagree with the church teachings on these two things? Anybody?

Also, for those of you who are creationists and believe the universe is 6000 years old, can you point me to CURRENT scientific information that has strong evidence for your position, that’s not from the websites Answers In Genesis, Creation.com, or ICR? I believe I’ve read all that they have to say on the subject.

I mean there are fossils and artifacts that date to way beyond 6000 years and all the evidence seems to point to evolution.

I think the LCMS is correct and after years of study I cannot believe in the so called science behind evolution.

FaithT · Mar 26, 2023

JM said:
I think the LCMS is correct and after years of study I cannot believe in the so called science behind evolution.

What were the sites/books etc. you studied?

JM · Mar 26, 2023

FaithT said:
What were the sites/books etc. you studied?

I've been a Christian for 25 years and worked in libraries for 31. I can't list every title I've read but I've read a majority of the popular titles and many or the lesser known titles. I have also studied philosophy and history enough to know, "this to shall pass."

Unfollowing thread. I can't pack 30 years of study across multi disciplines into a thread.

Best of luck.

J_B_ · Apr 8, 2023

FaithT said:
Who here that are LCMS are theistic evolutionists and disagree with the church teachings on these two things? Anybody?

I know you've asked this question many times here. I among others have answered, but it appears to still bother you. I'd like to help, but I don't know how.

FaithT · May 9, 2023

JM said:
I think the LCMS is correct and after years of study I cannot believe in the so called science behind evolution.

What about this: the general consensus among paleontologists is that birds evolved from dinosaurs. When virtually the entire scientific community belive this as fact, then what?
And now they think they may have found the missing link between dinosaurs and birds with the Cratonavis Zhui.

Cratonavis zhui: A Dinosaur-like Bird?

Click to expand...

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Job 33:6 · May 9, 2023

FaithT said:
What about this: the general consensus among paleontologists is that birds evolved from dinosaurs. When virtually the entire scientific community belive this as fact, then what?
And now they think they may have found the missing link between dinosaurs and birds with the Cratonavis Zhui.

I would recommend the Facebook page titled "answers to answers in Genesis".

FaithT · May 9, 2023

Job 33:6 said:
I would recommend the Facebook page titled "answers to answers in Genesis".

I just checked them out and they are OEC. I’m looking for a YEC perspective. I do believe the earth is old but I’m wanting to learn more about the other side of the debate.

Job 33:6 · May 9, 2023

FaithT said:
I just checked them out and they are OEC. I’m looking for a YEC perspective. I do believe the earth is old but I’m wanting to learn more about the other side of the debate.

They aren't actually OEC. But sure, that's fine.

Answers in Genesis is probably the best YEC resource available for that position. Which isn't saying much.

J_B_ · May 10, 2023

FaithT said:
What about this: the general consensus among paleontologists is that birds evolved from dinosaurs. When virtually the entire scientific community belive this as fact, then what?
And now they think they may have found the missing link between dinosaurs and birds with the Cratonavis Zhui.

Much of that is based on inductive reasoning.

FaithT · May 10, 2023

J_B_ said:
Much of that is based on inductive reasoning.

So, what exactly are you saying? That their conclusion that birds evolved from dinosaurs is true or false?

J_B_ · May 11, 2023

FaithT said:
So, what exactly are you saying? That their conclusion that birds evolved from dinosaurs is true or false?

You referred to it as a fact. Many biologists would probably agree with you in a colloquial sense, but in proper scientific terms, this is not a fact. It is a conclusion drawn by inductive reasoning. That needs to be clarified before the conversation can even start.

Job 33:6 · May 11, 2023

FaithT said:
I’m LCMS and there are two things about my faith that really bother me. I’m a theistic evolutionist but LCMS church teaching is against evolution and that the earth and universe are around 6000 years old.
Who here that are LCMS are theistic evolutionists and disagree with the church teachings on these two things? Anybody?

Also, for those of you who are creationists and believe the universe is 6000 years old, can you point me to CURRENT scientific information that has strong evidence for your position, that’s not from the websites Answers In Genesis, Creation.com, or ICR? I believe I’ve read all that they have to say on the subject.

I mean there are fossils and artifacts that date to way beyond 6000 years and all the evidence seems to point to evolution.

Maybe you should explain why you are asking your questions and what it is that you're trying to get a better understanding of.

Are you looking for a new church?

You should understand that many churches view the Bible on scientific grounds. And through the lense of a 21st century enlightened scientifically minded person. For example, some churches have followers that thing that the earth is flat. Because they read verses in the Bible about earth being shaped like a circle over the face of the waters, and then think that the Bible is describing geology or astronomy. Or many read passages about the pillars that hold up the earth and think that is science and that NASA is wrong and is making fake satellite images.

Historically, when Galileo discovered heliocentrism, or at least observed that the sun didn't revolve around the earth, the Catholic church also had a problem with this. The Bible says that earth is on pillars and shall not be moved. And so the Catholic church had a problem with heliocentrism because they felt that the Bible was describing science. And therefore they opposed astronomers.

The same goes for the age of the earth. Many churches today think that the Bible is describing the age of the earth when it says that earth was created in 7 days.

You aren't losing your mind. You're just seeing a conflict that has been around for thousands of years, driven by people's inability to distinguish theology from science.

And the same goes with evolution as well.

FaithT · May 11, 2023

Job 33:6 said:
Maybe you should explain why you are asking your questions and what it is that you're trying to get a better understanding of.

Are you looking for a new church?

You should understand that many churches view the Bible on scientific grounds. And through the lense of a 21st century enlightened scientifically minded person. For example, some churches have followers that thing that the earth is flat. Because they read verses in the Bible about earth being shaped like a circle over the face of the waters, and then think that the Bible is describing geology or astronomy. Or many read passages about the pillars that hold up the earth and think that is science and that NASA is wrong and is making fake satellite images.

Historically, when Galileo discovered heliocentrism, or at least observed that the sun didn't revolve around the earth, the Catholic church also had a problem with this. The Bible says that earth is on pillars and shall not be moved. And so the Catholic church had a problem with heliocentrism because they felt that the Bible was describing science. And therefore they opposed astronomers.

The same goes for the age of the earth. Many churches today think that the Bible is describing the age of the earth when it says that earth was created in 7 days.

You aren't losing your mind. You're just seeing a conflict that has been around for thousands of years, driven by people's inability to distinguish theology from science.

And the same goes with evolution as well.

I’m not looking for a new church, I’m trying to understand what my church believes and teaches. I have a Catholic background and switched to Lutheran LCMS. They don’t believe in macroevolution and I’m trying to see the other side of things. Their side.

FaithT · May 11, 2023

Job 33:6 said:
Maybe you should explain why you are asking your questions and what it is that you're trying to get a better understanding of.

Are you looking for a new church?

You should understand that many churches view the Bible on scientific grounds. And through the lense of a 21st century enlightened scientifically minded person. For example, some churches have followers that thing that the earth is flat. Because they read verses in the Bible about earth being shaped like a circle over the face of the waters, and then think that the Bible is describing geology or astronomy. Or many read passages about the pillars that hold up the earth and think that is science and that NASA is wrong and is making fake satellite images.

Historically, when Galileo discovered heliocentrism, or at least observed that the sun didn't revolve around the earth, the Catholic church also had a problem with this. The Bible says that earth is on pillars and shall not be moved. And so the Catholic church had a problem with heliocentrism because they felt that the Bible was describing science. And therefore they opposed astronomers.

The same goes for the age of the earth. Many churches today think that the Bible is describing the age of the earth when it says that earth was created in 7 days.

You aren't losing your mind. You're just seeing a conflict that has been around for thousands of years, driven by people's inability to distinguish theology from science.

And the same goes with evolution as well.

I’m losing my mind over these endless questionsI have…..my husband has been going to church with me lately even though he doesn’t believe as the LCMS does. There’s no way I could get him to become Catholic, though I don’t want to go back to Catholicism either. I just don’t know what to do bc I love my church but I think macroevolution might be factual.

J_B_ · May 11, 2023

FaithT said:
I’m trying to understand what my church believes and teaches.

I take it then, that my reply was not helpful. The problem is that the answer is not black and white. It requires some explanation, so you'll have to invest a little time if you want to understand me. I will do my best to keep it brief and let you ask only the questions you need to ask.

FaithT said:
I’m losing my mind over these endless questions I have…

I'm sorry. I get two impressions from you. I don't know you well enough to know if I'm right. Regardless, it seems to me that 1) You don't have a pastoral guide that you trust, and 2) You remain bound by the authoritative claims of the Catholic Church and haven't yet grasped the freedom that Christ brings, which is part of living faith as a Lutheran. In other words, you want a pope to tell you what's true and false and has the authority to make those claims without fail. The Lutheran church doesn't have that.

FaithT · May 11, 2023

J_B_ said:
I take it then, that my reply was not helpful. The problem is that the answer is not black and white. It requires some explanation, so you'll have to invest a little time if you want to understand me. I will do my best to keep it brief and let you ask only the questions you need to ask.

I'm sorry. I get two impressions from you. I don't know you well enough to know if I'm right. Regardless, it seems to me that 1) You don't have a pastoral guide that you trust, and 2) You remain bound by the authoritative claims of the Catholic Church and haven't yet grasped the freedom that Christ brings, which is part of living faith as a Lutheran. In other words, you want a pope to tell you what's true and false and has the authority to make those claims without fail. The Lutheran church doesn't have that.

No, I have a very trustworthy pastor, but in Catholicism, they have the freedom to believe in evolution or not. In the LCMS it’s taught that macroevolution doesn’t occur.

LCMS Evolution, Age of Universe

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