Those who believe the perfect in 1 Cor 13:10 refers to the 2nd coming...

Guojing said:

You appear to have great difficulty presenting your points without talking down to others?

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Are you getting personal with this? I was the one who ended the conversation. If you want to make it out into harassment I can help you talk to the mods about it. Your choice.

Guojing said:

So would you agree that charity can exist without faith?

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The Spirit that God puts in those who do charity apart from hearing the Gospel is the same Spirit of Faith in which the Gospel is proclaimed. is just that they are not aware of.

Guojing said:

No one is harassing you. I am asking a question to you, based on the 2 statements you have made in this discussion thread.

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I ended the conversation, why are you trying to keep it going? Any more and it is harassment.

Guojing said:

To confirm, you are one of those who believe that faith and hope are necessary even after we see Christ face to face?

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"Necessary" is not the right word. Faith and hope simply are. Like holiness and righteousness, they are immutable.

Guojing said:

So to confirm, in your view, charity cannot be present without faith and hope?

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Charity cannot be present without the "Spirit of God", that is for those who hears the Gospel and those who have not.

For those who hears the Gospel and believe, charity is an act of Faith which demonstrate the believer’s hope in Christ through His teachings.

Guojing said:

I will just accept that you are saying faith and hope are like the pre-requisites for charity.

Okay, in that case, I can understand how you reconcile the perfect as the 2nd coming of Christ, with 1 Corinthians 13:13.

In your view, once the 2nd coming happen, there is no need for faith and hope because charity will include those 2 as well.

Would that be the correct representation of your view?

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Hi, at the second coming we are like Jesus (perfect stage), we see Him as He is...1John 3:2

In other words,...Faith that grow in hope reach "maturity" (that is Love). A fully mature Christian in the fullness of the Glory of the Son of God..Ephesians 4:13-

Postvieww said:

I am still waiting for someone to make an effective scriptural case that any gifts have ceased. These debates usually degenerate into a word salad of over used phrases. For example God no longer works thru a healer. No man is a healer but God still uses men as a conduit for His power. God is not limited to use men but He May as He wills use men to disperse gifts to others. This has not changed and will never change until Christ returns.As I said before in a revival service a man of God gave me a word of knowledge about a physical problem I had for several years . I had never discussed this with anyone I just lived with it. The preacher laid hands on me told me God was healing me and He did I was and I still am. Notice he said God was healing me. No man can heal but God can and does use His servants to accomplish many things in this world. Frankly I am bewildered as to why so many in the church fight this blessing God has for us.

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Cessationism:
Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.
(Note: This does not mean miracles have ceased, but it means that the gift of healing or the gift of miraculous gifts and prophecy as seen in the early church has ceased).

1. Tongues and prophecy have ceased ~ 1 Corinthians 13:8-13. Verse 8 says, “...whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;” and verse 8 says, “whether there be tongues, they shall cease;” The question is when do tongues and prophecies cease? Verse 10 says “ when that which is perfect is come”; And verse 11 says, “when I became a man, I put away childish things.” Are we going to be children (and not men) upon this Earth until Christ takes us home?
   
   
2. Both 1 Corinthians 13 and James 1 describe something that is “perfect” and “looking into a mirror.” In 1 Corinthians 13, that which is “perfect” (neuter in the Greek) fits the reference to the “Perfect law of liberty” (James 1:25) (Which would also be neuter). The law of the Lord is “perfect” (Psalms 19:7). All Scripture (the Bible) is profitable so that the man of God may be “perfect” unto every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). James 1:23 and 1 Corinthians 13:12 both describe the Bible as a mirror/glass that we see our reflection in. Some people look into a mirror and forget their physical appearance. Some people look into the Bible mirror and forget their spiritual appearance. Therefore, Glass / Mirror = Perfect = The Word of God. 1 Corinthians 13:12 describes the "perfect" as a glass mirror, just as James 1:23 does. 2 Corinthians 3:18 also shows the glass, and hence the perfect to be the Word of God, which transforms us. It says: "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord" (Also see verse 15 in the same chapter). As we look into God's Word and we see Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit transforms us into the very image of Jesus Christ. "We all" means all believers, seeing in the Bible/glass, the glory of the Lord. "Open face" means that we can hide nothing from God; We must be open and honest with Him.
   
   
3. Tongues were for a sign that the Jews looked for. 1 Corinthians 1:22 says, “For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:” But Jesus says, “ An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign;” (Matthew 12:39). Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1 Corinthians 14:22). "In the law it is written, with men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people (Jews); and yet for all that (all the tongues) will they (Jews) not hear me (warning ignored), saith the Lord". 1 Corinthians 14:21. Tongues here clearly are a warning to the Jews that they ignore. 1 Corinthians 14:21 is quoting from Deuteronomy 28:49 where God warns of judgment coming from "a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand."
   
   
4. The three greatest prophets and miracle workers in the Bible are Moses, Elijah, and Jesus. We see that the miracles that they performed were a way to authenticate them as a messenger from GOD and the Word of God that they provided (that would be immortalized into Scripture). We notice that after each of these prophets, there was a time of silence where no miracles were done. Just like with the prophets Moses, Elijah, and Jesus, miracles authenticated the apostles' message as from God. "And they (apostles) went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the Word with signs (tongues, prophecies, healing, etc.) following. Amen." Mark 16:20. Today the need for tongues and miracles has ceased. God has authenticated the apostles and the New Testament that they penned. This proves the temporary nature of tongues and miracles.
   
   
5. We can see that after the book of Acts, the gifts no longer operated in Paul’s life like they once had. The sign gifts, tongues, prophecy, the gift of healing, etc. were operating all through the Book of Acts, and these gifts are mentioned in the letters that Paul wrote during the Acts period. But when we turn to the letters written after the Book of Acts—the 4 Prison Epistles, and the 3 Pastoral Epistles, we find that the sign gifts either aren’t mentioned at all or we see—as with the gift of healing—that they were no longer operating in Paul’s life. What he could do in Acts 28, he could no longer do in Philippians, or in 1 and 2 Timothy. He could heal all the sick on the island in Acts 28:9, but he couldn’t heal any of his closest co-workers—Timothy, Epaphroditus, Trophimus—after the close of the Book of Acts (See this article here for the full explanation).
   
   
6. Notice that both 1 Corinthians 13:11 and Ephesians 4:13 equate attaining fullness of knowledge with becoming a perfect or mature man. What have childish things got to do with temporary gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge? Answer: Paul is comparing a human advancing from childhood to adulthood, with the church passing from infancy in the first century marked by prophecy, tongues and knowledge gifts to maturity marked by believers depending on the Bible, faith, hope and charity from 96 AD to the rapture. By 96 AD the childish gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge had ceased, and church manhood had been reached. A man comes to fulness of the knowledge of Christ by Scripture; For all Scripture is profitable for doctrine that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). (Note: Back in the early church, the gift of knowledge was the giving of special revelation of either history, and or doctrine that the apostles did not have on their own; In the OT, Moses received the gift of knowledge to pen the details of history in the Torah; In the NT, Certain men of God (in the early church) had received new knowledge from God to teach new doctrine, like Peter, James, John, and Paul etc. so as to write inspired Scripture).
   
   
7. While God can heal people directly Himself today, the gift of miracles is not given to any one believer that we know today. No Charismatic can always heal. Yet, the Bible says that they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. This means 100% recovery all the time. No one can do this today, as the apostles could in Acts 5:12-16. "By the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people.....they (believers) brought forth the sick into the streets.....and they were healed every one". (Acts 5:16).
   
   
8. New revelation (prophecy) or new words from God are not to be added (Revelation 22:18-19). If a person were to add to God’s Word, the plagues that are within the book known as the Bible (not the plagues in Revelation) would be added to them. We have occurrences of this actually happening. See these two links here: Bible Correctors lose Voice Bible Corrector Loses Voice on Ankerberg Show
   
   
9. The Apostles and Prophets were merely the foundation built upon the foundation of Jesus. “For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone;” (Ephesians 2:18-20). We are said to have access by one Spirit unto the Father that is build upon the “foundation” of the apostles and prophets. Being an apostle is a gift (See 1 Corinthians 12:28-31). The qualifications of being an apostle was to have seen the risen Lord Jesus Christ (See Acts of the Apostles 1:22-26). Paul said he met the qualifications as being an apostle because he had seen the risen Lord. 1 Corinthians 9:1 “…Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?” Paul called himself the “last prophet.” (1 Corinthians 15:8-9). Paul says that God has set forth the apostles last (1 Corinthians 14:9).

10. The context of I Corinthians is rebuking 13 errors, such as tongues, and it is not recommending tongues. The Corinthian church was filled with problems that Paul corrects in this book, such as:


As we can see the Corinthian church was deep in error and false doctrine. It was the only church that emphasized tongues as today's Charismatics do. Charismatics therefore place themselves in very bad company. Charismatics fail to understand that Paul is not endorsing tongues, but is rebuking the wrong use of tongues and is strongly regulating tongues contrary to today's Charismatics. Today's emphasis on assemblies with more than on person speaking at the same time is plainly wrong (1 Corinthians 14:27). Paul feared that even one person speaking in tongues without proper interpretation would give the appearance of barbarians or insanity (1 Corinthians 14:11) (1 Corinthians 14:23). What would he think of today's mass hysteria? Today's spontaneous, wild use outside of Scriptural limits is wrong. The gift of prophecy, far superior in every way to tongues, was under the control of the prophets For it is written: “Remember that people who prophesy are in control of their spirit and can take turns.” (1 Corinthians 14:32) (NLT). So Paul's repeated instructions about the right use of the gift of tongues required it to be a very controllable gift, not a force or power controlling the user. Paul valued 5 words with the understanding rather than 10,000 words without the understanding (i.e., tongues)! So Preaching is far superior in God's purpose and for the churches' profit (1 Corinthians 14:19) (1 Corinthians 14:39). The gifts had a purpose and a place in time. They were to authenticate the church and the New Covenant. But seeing that which is "perfect" has come (the Bible), we do not need any more revelation. The Bible has all the revelation or instruction that we need today.

Postvieww said:

I am still waiting for someone to make an effective scriptural case that any gifts have ceased. These debates usually degenerate into a word salad of over used phrases. For example God no longer works thru a healer. No man is a healer but God still uses men as a conduit for His power. God is not limited to use men but He May as He wills use men to disperse gifts to others. This has not changed and will never change until Christ returns.As I said before in a revival service a man of God gave me a word of knowledge about a physical problem I had for several years . I had never discussed this with anyone I just lived with it. The preacher laid hands on me told me God was healing me and He did I was and I still am. Notice he said God was healing me. No man can heal but God can and does use His servants to accomplish many things in this world. Frankly I am bewildered as to why so many in the church fight this blessing God has for us.

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What is the meaning of "face to face" in 1 Corinthians 13? Well, I believe we will see our image conform or change to the image of Christ in light of the "Bible / Glass / Mirror" by our obedience to Jesus's commands (Note: See the pictures below within this post). As we obey His Word, we conform more to the likeness of Christ and when we look in the mirror of God's Word (the Bible), we see the image of Christ in the reflection and not our old reflection by the fact that we are conforming to that "perfect Word" that He has given us. So yes. We do see Christ in the mirror "face to face" but it is only by our conforming to Christ by our obedience to Him. The focus of 1 Corinthians 13 is love. Loving as Christ loved. As a whole: 1 Corinthians 12, 1 Corinthians 13, 1 Corinthians 14 are dealing with gifts. Although the miraculous gifts (not the non-miraculous gifts) were necessary at one time (to confirm the Word of the New Covenant and the early church), I believe these gifts have most likely ceased, and they are no longer needed (Because that which is "perfect" has come, i.e. the Bible) whereby we can be "perfect" or be a "mature man" by obeying God's Word by faith (and not by sight). For 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says that all Scripture is profitable for doctrine so that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work.

"And all of us, as with unveiled face, [because we] continued to behold [in the Word of God] as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are constantly being transfigured into His very own image in ever increasing splendor and from one degree of glory to another; [for this comes] from the Lord..." (2 Corinthians 3:18) (AMPC).

"As all of us reflect the glory of the Lord with unveiled faces, we are becoming more like him with ever-increasing glory by the Lord’s Spirit." (2 Corinthians 3:18) (ISV).

"The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master." (John 6:40).

2 "Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure."
(1 John 3:2-3).



To all:

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." (Romans 12:2).

16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Gifts are something people can see. But the Word of God (the Bible) is a faith thing.

Jesus said,
"...blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." (John 20:29).

This would be us today with the Bible.
We don't need spiritual gifts to see in order to believe.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1).

Side Note:

The second image (above) that has a picture of Christ is not what Jesus obviously looks like. I only posted this image for illustrative purposes only. Jesus is not white or European and He more than likely did not have long hair, either.

Postvieww said:

I am still waiting for someone to make an effective scriptural case that any gifts have ceased. These debates usually degenerate into a word salad of over used phrases. For example God no longer works thru a healer. No man is a healer but God still uses men as a conduit for His power. God is not limited to use men but He May as He wills use men to disperse gifts to others. This has not changed and will never change until Christ returns.As I said before in a revival service a man of God gave me a word of knowledge about a physical problem I had for several years . I had never discussed this with anyone I just lived with it. The preacher laid hands on me told me God was healing me and He did I was and I still am. Notice he said God was healing me. No man can heal but God can and does use His servants to accomplish many things in this world. Frankly I am bewildered as to why so many in the church fight this blessing God has for us.

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If we compare 1 Corinthians 13, and James 1, we can see similarities between these two chapters.

#1. Perfect is present in both.


#2. Mirror/Glass is present in both.


#3. Looking into a Mirror/Glass is present in both.


#4. Love is present in both.


James 1 and 1 Corinthians 13 are warm up chapters (for the next chapter) in making a point about believers having a lack of love.

James 1 sets the stage (Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction) in how James warned the brethren in James 2 giving favor to the rich brethren and not showing favor to the poor brethren was a lack of love.

1 Corinthians 13 sets the stage (Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal) for Paul rebuking the Corinthian brethren in their lack of love by speaking in tongues publicly without an interpreter (prophecy), whereby they would have been edified or built up in the faith. God is not the author of confusion in the church. The mysteries of the kingdom is given to God’s people, but to unbelievers, they are not given.

Please keep in mind that I do believe the early church believers were allowed to pray in tongues privately (with no interpreter). But this was not some kind of gibberish heavenly language that they could not understand. Paul says I will pray with the understanding also in 1 Corinthians 14:15. This was real foreign languages as spoken in Acts 2. When they spoke these languages in Acts 2, they also were able to understand these languages as if it was in their own language. There was complete understanding. So if an early church believer prayed privately to God in tongues it would have been a real foreign language AND they would have clearly understood what that particular foreign language was saying just like their was full understanding of those who had the tongues gift in Acts 2.

Postvieww said:

I have been away from this forum for a while but in the past I was very active and at that time I only recall maybe one example of someone changing a view because of debate.

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As of this date, over the years, I have changed my position on 21 things in my growing knowledge and study of God’s Word.

Check out this thread here:

Postvieww said:

Thats why we have different denominations they are all right in their own eyes, they all believe they have some revelation that some other denomination does not have.

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I am not into denominations. I am into just believing God’s Word and believing it and living it out to the best of my ability with God’s help. To live a life that is pleasing to God is the most important thing, and miracle chasing seems to have the wrong focus in my opinion. Granted, Paul did say to seek earnestly the spiritual gifts, but I would understand that today as meaning, “the non-miraculous spiritual gifts” like: Teachings, evangelism, etcetera. I believe our Lord has now set things up for faith to exist more fully. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. While I am not saying God does not do miracles today. I am saying that God has made things today for us to have faith by sight unseen and not because we need a confirmation of God by seeing a miracle or by having some kind of mega spiritual experience at a church. I see things like being slain in the spirit and or convulsing on the ground and barking like animals as not being of God. Yet, many consider these things to be spiritual and good. Yet, in other religions, we see similar experiences. Even tongues speaking is done in other religions. Granted, I am not saying God cannot make His people to speak in tongues today. But I believe if he did, it would not be so open or public. If God did, it would be during an extremely dark time like in the tribulation period. But again, I am still very cautious. My soul is too important to trust in those who claim to do miracles. Some praise the Azusa street revival but they do not know that there were spiritists and mediums there and the kissing between women and men went on (with them being strangers). Convulsions were also present at this event, as well.

Postvieww said:

1 Corinthians 13
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
Did Paul speak with tongues of men? Probably Could Paul have spoke in a language e not known to him that he referred to as tongues of angels? Probably.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
Did all of these this apply to Paul? Probably
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
Did he give goods to the poor? Probably. Would he have given his body to be burned? I'm sure he would have.

Can angels speak in whatever language nessecary to accomplish God's mission? Of course.
Do you know there is not langue they speak not known to men today? I really doubt it.



Really what language do you think angels speak French maybe or possibly German. You can't possibly say with athourity there are not languages not known to man used in heaven.

Unless one knows Chinese it probably sounds like gibberish to most people.

I agree tongues are alway a language but not necessarily one you can identify. There have been languages lost to history and time, there were still languages.

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An article from WayofLife:


Source:

In the article, did you notice the repeated words in the examples given by those who spoke in gibberish tongues?
I say this is a problem because Jesus condemned praying in van repetition.
One is praying vain words if they don’t know what they are praying and it is vain repetition if one repeats gibberish words that you don’t understand. Jesus said that these types will think they will be heard for their much speaking.

Side Note:

I do disagree with the author of the article on point, though. The author of the article does not appear to understand that the early church was allowed to pray privately to God according to 1 Corinthians 14. However, this was not gibberish modern day tongues speaking that people do not understand but it was the same real foreign languages they spoke and understood in Acts chapter 2. In Acts 2, they were not only able to speak another language but they were able to understand it, too. So for example: If you lived during the early church days, and God gave you the gift of tongues to speak in Greek, you could privately pray to God speaking Greek, and you would also be able to understand Greek (by the power and working of the Holy Spirit). Greek would not be your native tongue but you would be able to speak and understand it if God gifted you the gift of tongues in Greek. This is what Paul meant in verse 15 when he said he would pray (privately pray) with the understanding also. Paul was not talking about privately praying in some unknown gibberish that he did not understand. Clarity of understanding was Paul’s whole point in 1 Corinthians 14.

Postvieww said:

I believe all of Jesus’s acts while on earth were as a flesh and blood man anointed by God. It is my belief no miracle or any healings were accomplished as God. I believe every supernatural action by Jesus could be categorized under one of the gifts of the Spirit

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Jesus had power as God during His earthly ministry:


As for the Father and Spirit doing miracles through Jesus:

We know the Father did works (miracles) through Jesus (John 14:8-12). We know Jesus cast out devils and healed others by the working of the Spirit (Matthew 12:22-32). But this is not in conflict with Jesus having His own power as God as I have demonstrated by the verses above.

I believe Jesus only suppressed His divine attribute of "having all knowledge" or His "Omniscience" (Which took place sometime before the world came into being). This is what I believe the "glory" that Jesus spoke of that He wished to share in again with the Father before the world existed in John 17:5. For Habakkuk 2:14 says, "For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." Also see 2 Corinthians 4:6.

The NLT is heretically wrong for saying that Jesus gave up His divine privileges In Philippians 2:7.
I believe the KJB that says, “But made himself of no reputation” is the true accurate rendering here.

Guojing said:

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
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One question I would like to ask and discuss with those who believes the "perfect" in this passage refers to the 2nd coming of Christ.

Why would Paul write we still need to have "hope" after Christ comes back and we are with him in heaven?

The Bible definition of hope is "a confident expectation and desire for something good in the future."

Why should hope still remain when we can see Christ face to face, and we have our redeemed body? Do we still need to have hope then and why?

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I agree with you that the miraculous gifts (like tongues,, prophecy, revelatory knowledge) have ceased and not miracles in general (if that is what you believe). I also agree with you that ”the perfect” is in reference to the completed canon of Scripture (with the finishing of the book of Revelation). Whether Paul knew the truth behind the “the perfect” himself is not revealed to us. God could have simply relayed to Paul the message of what to say to the Corinthians (even with him knowing in part).

However, I disagree with your defense on Cessationism on this point in your OP (Even though I agree with Cessationism).
You are not reading 1 Corinthians 13:13 correctly (if I am understanding you right).

Verse 10 - The perfect is come is yet future from Paul’s perspective when he was writing to the Corinthians. The canon of Scripture was not complete when he was writing his letter to the Corinthians.

Verse 11 - Has a double meaning behind it. The first meaning is prophetic and it does speak of the future where the church will grow out of infancy and rely solely on faith in God’s Word (Completed Scripture) along with the cessation of tongues speaking (sounding like babbling children - but was a part of God’s plan because of judgment and prophecy, i.e., an interpreter would give a warning to the Jewish nations, and other unbelievers). The second meaning speaks to Paul’s present time, whereby Paul is rebuking the Corinthians for speaking in tongues without an interpreter in a public assembly. They were like babbling babies with no real meaning given to edify the church. Paul does say if there is on interpreter, they can pray to God in tongues but this would be in a real foreign language and not gibberish like today’s modern tongues AND the person praying would understand the foreign language that they were speaking to God (Because that is the example given to us in Acts 2 involving tongues). This is why Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14:15 that he will pray with the understanding also.

Verse 12 - The first half of this verse is speaking in the present time of Paul when he says we [the church] look through a glass darkly and they know in part. The second half is prophetic or yet future when the “face to face” in the mirror is able to happen (or when the perfect comes with the close of the cannon of Scripture) whereby the church will know more fully (When the book of Revelation is completed).

Verse 13 - You seem to think “faith, hope, and love’ is something that happens exclusively AFTER the perfect has come. That is NOT what this verse is saying (if that is what you are suggesting). Paul here is speaking in his present tense time as he is writing to the Corinthians about how NOW abides faith, hope, and love and it will continue even past the time when the perfect has come (Which would be the close of Scripture). There is no ending point given for faith, hope, and love in 1 Corinthians 13. Granted, faith and hope will end when we each die. Faith and hope will end forever for all when the Judgment happens and the New Earth comes. But love will continue for all eternity for God’s faithful people (Who do not justify sin and they live properly by faith).

Even those who say that when Jesus returns is the perfect coming are not correct here.
When Jesus returns (With Christ destroying the nations of this world), there will be the Millennium or 1,000 year reign of Christ.
At the end of that 1,000 years, there will be another test of those who live during the Millennium. Satan will be loosed out of the bottomless pit and tempt the nations to attack God’s true faithful people.

Those who say that Glorification is ”the perfect” are basically saying that at death, or the Rapture is “the perfect coming.” Yet, again, there will be believers at the end of the Millennium who will have their faith tested In the final battle (Which is at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ - which is yet future). So this does not work, either. What makes the most sense if “the perfect” is referring to the close of the canon of Scripture (Whereby we can live more fully by faith than before). Our knowledge is more complete and full when the the canon of Scripture became was finished.