Those who believe the perfect in 1 Cor 13:10 refers to the 2nd coming...

[Guojing]

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
====

One question I would like to ask and discuss with those who believes the "perfect" in this passage refers to the 2nd coming of Christ.

Why would Paul write we still need to have "hope" after Christ comes back and we are with him in heaven?

The Bible definition of hope is "a confident expectation and desire for something good in the future."

Why should hope still remain when we can see Christ face to face, and we have our redeemed body? Do we still need to have hope then and why?

 

[HTacianas]

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
====

One question I would like to ask and discuss with those who believes the "perfect" in this passage refers to the 2nd coming of Christ.

Why would Paul write we still need to have "hope" after Christ comes back and we are with him in heaven?

The Bible definition of hope is "a confident expectation and desire for something good in the future."

Why should hope still remain when we can see Christ face to face, and we have our redeemed body? Do we still need to have hope then and why?

He's not saying that hope is necessary afterwards but only until. That which is perfect is still to come but for now the hope for it abides.

 

[sandman]

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
====

One question I would like to ask and discuss with those who believes the "perfect" in this passage refers to the 2nd coming of Christ.

Why would Paul write we still need to have "hope" after Christ comes back and we are with him in heaven?

The Bible definition of hope is "a confident expectation and desire for something good in the future."

Why should hope still remain when we can see Christ face to face, and we have our redeemed body? Do we still need to have hope then and why?

In a way it does…. but not in the way described.

The word prefect is the Greek word teleios meaning “brought to it’s end, finished.”

Same word used in reference to the one body of Christ, with Christ as the head.
So when the body is complete then Christ will return.

I.Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect (teleios) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Regarding your question:
The When denotes future. It hasn’t happened yet.

1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

 

[Guojing]

He's not saying that hope is necessary afterwards but only until. That which is perfect is still to come but for now the hope for it abides.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Interesting, so if vs 8, 13, what you stated is correct, that means you believe there must be a definite period of time in between the 2nd coming of Christ, and the ceasing of tongues, prophecies and word of knowledge correct?

The timeline goes

tongues, and prophecies cease >>>> Faith, hope and charity remains necessary >>>>> 2nd coming of Christ (where as you claim faith hope and charity is no longer necessary)

Do you understand what I am saying?

 

[Guojing]

In a way it does…. but not in the way described.

The word prefect is the Greek word teleios meaning “brought to it’s end, finished.”

Same word used in reference to the one body of Christ, with Christ as the head.
So when the body is complete then Christ will return.

I.Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect (teleios) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Regarding your question:
The When denotes future. It hasn’t happened yet.

1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

So my question to you is, why do you think we still need hope when we can see Christ face to face in our redeemed body?

 

[sandman]

You lost me ....As far as what I read we have hope until the return. So in what you are thinking you are correct, but everything is talking about future....
When, For now we see, now I know in part

 

[Guojing]

You lost me ....As far as what I read we have hope until the return. So in what you are thinking you are correct, but everything is talking about future....
When, For now we see, now I know in part

Going back to my OP

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
===

Do you agree that Paul is explaining that tongues, prophecies and word of knowledge will cease first while 3 best gifts remain (1 Corinthians 12:31), which is faith hope and charity?

You can also read my clarifying point here Those who believe the perfect in 1 Cor 13:10 refers to the 2nd coming...

 

[HTacianas]

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Interesting, so if vs 8, 13, what you stated is correct, that means you believe there must be a definite period of time in between the 2nd coming of Christ, and the ceasing of tongues, prophecies and word of knowledge correct?

The timeline goes

tongues, and prophecies cease >>>> Faith, hope and charity remains necessary >>>>> 2nd coming of Christ (where as you claim faith hope and charity is no longer necessary)

Do you understand what I am saying?

I do understand what you are saying and there may be something to it. But I don't see those as hard and fast rules as much general principles. There may be tongues, there may be prophecies, or there may be some other things. I don't know. But I do stay away from people who claim to speak in tongues or who claim to be prophets. I don't see anything useful in either of them.

 

[Guojing]

I do understand what you are saying and there may be something to it. But I don't see those as hard and fast rules as much general principles. There may be tongues, there may be prophecies, or there may be some other things. I don't know. But I do stay away from people who claim to speak in tongues or who claim to be prophets. I don't see anything useful in either of them.

I am trying to reason that it makes much more sense for the perfect in vs 10 to refer to something else other than Christ's 2nd coming.

The entire chapter of 1 Cor 13 will make more sense if it does.

 

[Servant78]

Faith hope and charity is just a vehicle until perfection arrives.

 

[Guojing]

Faith hope and charity is just a vehicle until perfection arrives.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Interesting, so if vs 8, 13, what you stated is correct, that means you believe there must be a definite period of time in between the 2nd coming of Christ, and the ceasing of tongues, prophecies and word of knowledge correct?

The timeline goes

tongues, and prophecies cease >>>> Faith, hope and charity remains necessary >>>>> 2nd coming of Christ (where as you claim faith hope and charity is no longer necessary)

Do you understand what I am saying?

 

[HTacianas]

I am trying to reason that it makes much more sense for the perfect in vs 10 to refer to something else other than Christ's 2nd coming.

The entire chapter of 1 Cor 13 will make more sense if it does.

I'm afraid you might end up with a lot of speculation. I heard someone once who said that which was to come and was perfect was the bible. An interesting point I suppose but I don't agree with it. I heard also that the ancients used mirrors (the glass mentioned is not a glass at all but refers to a brass mirror) as a form of astral projection to receive visions. I certainly wouldn't involve myself in that.

It's good that you are asking questions about these things but be careful of the answers you get.

 

[Guojing]

I'm afraid you might end up with a lot of speculation. I heard someone once who said that which was to come and was perfect was the bible. An interesting point I suppose but I don't agree with it. I heard also that the ancients used mirrors (the glass mentioned is not a glass at all but refers to a brass mirror) as a form of astral projection to receive visions. I certainly wouldn't involve myself in that.

It's good that you are asking questions about these things but be careful of the answers you get.

That is why I love bible discussion forums on the Internet. Such questions rarely get asked and discussed in detail during church meetings, small groups etc.

People are just eager to eat the food, go home quickly and just "follow what the leadership" says. =)

 

[ByTheSpirit]

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
====

One question I would like to ask and discuss with those who believes the "perfect" in this passage refers to the 2nd coming of Christ.

Why would Paul write we still need to have "hope" after Christ comes back and we are with him in heaven?

The Bible definition of hope is "a confident expectation and desire for something good in the future."

Why should hope still remain when we can see Christ face to face, and we have our redeemed body? Do we still need to have hope then and why?

Paul is saying that until Christ returns faith, hope, and love will remain. Then when he returns, and we see “face to face”, we will be mature and complete. Not needing things like gifts or the like.

Id like to ask you a question. In your understanding what is “the perfect” in this passage referring to?

 

[Guojing]

Paul is saying that until Christ returns faith, hope, and love will remain. Then when he returns, and we see “face to face”, we will be mature and complete. Not needing things like gifts or the like.

Id like to ask you a question. In your understanding what is “the perfect” in this passage referring to?

For your first paragraph, as I have been stating to others here

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Interesting, so if vs 8, 13, what you stated is correct, that means you believe there must be a definite period of time in between the 2nd coming of Christ, and the ceasing of tongues, prophecies and word of knowledge correct?

The timeline goes

tongues, and prophecies cease >>>> Faith, hope and charity remains necessary >>>>> 2nd coming of Christ (where as you claim faith hope and charity is no longer necessary)

Do you understand what I am saying?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
====

One question I would like to ask and discuss with those who believes the "perfect" in this passage refers to the 2nd coming of Christ.

Why would Paul write we still need to have "hope" after Christ comes back and we are with him in heaven?

The Bible definition of hope is "a confident expectation and desire for something good in the future."

Why should hope still remain when we can see Christ face to face, and we have our redeemed body? Do we still need to have hope then and why?

Simple comprehension. Paul reverts from the future to the present. When he says, "and now" etc., he doesn't refer to after the second coming of Christ. He is referring to the present time. This means that during the Church Age before the second coming, faith, hope, and charity abides, and as he stated previously in the chapter, love takes priority over everything else and forms the foundation for Christian living.

It is amazing to me that people interpret, "And now abideth faith, hope and charity". as after the second coming of Christ. Perhaps they need to look up the word "now" in the English dictionary.

 

[Guojing]

Simple comprehension. Paul reverts from the future to the present. When he says, "and now" etc., he doesn't refer to after the second coming of Christ. He is referring to the present time. This means that during the Church Age before the second coming, faith, hope, and charity abides, and as he stated previously in the chapter, love is takes priority over everything else and forms the foundation for Christian living.

It is amazing to me that people interpret, "And now abideth faith, hope and charity". as after the second coming of Christ. Perhaps they need to look up the word "now" in the English dictionary.

So my standard follow up question to such a point, as I repeated a number of times here already to others

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Interesting, so if vs 8, 13, and what you stated is correct, that means you believe there must be a definite period of time in between the 2nd coming of Christ, and the ceasing of tongues, prophecies and word of knowledge correct?

The timeline goes

tongues, and prophecies cease >>>> (Church age according to you) Faith, hope and charity remains necessary >>>>> 2nd coming of Christ (where as you claim faith hope and charity is no longer necessary)

Do you understand what I am saying?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Interesting, so if vs 8, 13, what you stated is correct, that means you believe there must be a definite period of time in between the 2nd coming of Christ, and the ceasing of tongues, prophecies and word of knowledge correct?

The timeline goes

tongues, and prophecies cease >>>> Faith, hope and charity remains necessary >>>>> 2nd coming of Christ (where as you claim faith hope and charity is no longer necessary)

Do you understand what I am saying?

The Scripture doesn't say that there is any period of time between the "now" abiding faith hope and charity, and the future time after the Church Age when tongues and prophecy will disappear. You are adding something to the Scripture reference that isn't actually there.

What you are saying about tongues and prophecy is what the extreme Cessationist cult members would want you to believe.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

For your first paragraph, as I have been stating to others here

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Interesting, so if vs 8, 13, what you stated is correct, that means you believe there must be a definite period of time in between the 2nd coming of Christ, and the ceasing of tongues, prophecies and word of knowledge correct?

The timeline goes

tongues, and prophecies cease >>>> Faith, hope and charity remains necessary >>>>> 2nd coming of Christ (where as you claim faith hope and charity is no longer necessary)

Do you understand what I am saying?

not what I said at all. Gifts will continue until Christ returns, along with faith, hope, and love. No where, anywhere in the Bible does it state gifts will cease until Christs return. The gifts were given to build up the Church and until the Church is reunited with Christ they will continue, along side faith, hope, and love.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So my question to you is, why do you think we still need hope when we can see Christ face to face in our redeemed body?

You are ignoring the meaning of the word "now", therefore your question is pointless.