Losing their religion: why US churches are on the decline

parousia70 · Jan 28, 2023

Tuur said:
The focus on eschatology in the US isn't an evangelism thing. You may not remember it, but the US was so obsessed with eschatology in the 1970s that The Late Great Planet Earth had a good number of sale and it was adapted into a film narrated by Orson Wells. Grocery stores had small book racks in those days, and one chain in particular was full of such books. None of this would have happened if it was purely an evangelical thing.

It's strictly my own observation, but the eschatology obsession in the US coincided with a period of national decline, and practically ended during a period of national resurgence. That many in the US thought the world was coming to an end as the nation appeared to fade on the international scene isn't flattering, but there it is.

The broader, mainstream main stream popularity of eschatological obsession notwithstanding, (and yes, I do remember it, and all the other authors forays into the field) it’s origin is and birthplace indeed American Evangelical Christianity and dates back to the mid 1800s.

It wasn’t the Catholics, Episcopalians, orthodox…

It was American protestant evangelical Christianity that foisted this grift upon the population… Sure, the bloom did indeed fall off the rose for the secular world rather swiftly, but the fanaticism in the evangelical circles has only grown. It’s much more fervent now than it was in the 70s.

They might not sell as many books today, but the grift continues…

The sad part for me relates to the OP. For the church members refusing to drink the end times Kool-Aid, they’re struggling finding places to worship and fellowship, so they are simply leaving church alltogether.

Tuur · Jan 28, 2023

parousia70 said:
It was American protestant evangelical Christianity that foisted this grift upon the population… Sure, the bloom did indeed fall off the rose for the secular world rather swiftly, but the fanaticism in the evangelical circles has only grown. It’s much more fervent now than it was in the 70s.

"Grift," eh? Are you speaking as an evangelical or as someone from the outside looking in?

dqhall · Jan 28, 2023

Tuur said:
The focus on eschatology in the US isn't an evangelism thing. You may not remember it, but the US was so obsessed with eschatology in the 1970s that The Late Great Planet Earth had a good number of sale and it was adapted into a film narrated by Orson Wells. Grocery stores had small book racks in those days, and one chain in particular was full of such books. None of this would have happened if it was purely an evangelical thing.

It's strictly my own observation, but the eschatology obsession in the US coincided with a period of national decline, and practically ended during a period of national resurgence. That many in the US thought the world was coming to an end as the nation appeared to fade on the international scene isn't flattering, but there it is.

The Late Great Planet Earth was published in 1970. Like Revelation, much of it is difficult to understand and symbolic, at times unintelligible. In time The Late Great Planet Earth lost popularity due to its predictions not coming true.

The usual sins of lust, greed, ignorance, deceit and anger contributed to society’s lack of improvement.

Tuur · Jan 28, 2023

Unlike the Christ By [Insert year here] books (and yes, they existed), The Late Great Planet Earth doesn't have a definite timetable. It isn't difficult to understand. I had a book on Revelations that was far more complicated. Due to the eschatology craze of the time, to this day my eyes start to glaze over when someone mentions Daniel's weeks.

The thing about eschatology is that it isn't a "grift." We can argue about the particulars (well, the rest of you can; see "my eyes start to glaze over" above), but not eschatology itself. Some of the objections reminds me of an argument at a church business meeting where some wanted to cut down trees they thought were in danger of falling on the church and others arguing it wasn't necessary because "They've been here all these years and haven't fallen yet."

There's another thing, so far overlooked in this topic: Each of us faces our own personal end-time "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment;" (Hebrews 9:27). Whatever anyone things of eschatology, all of us will our own passing. And that's no grift at all.

dqhall · Jan 28, 2023

Tuur said:
Unlike the Christ By [Insert year here] books (and yes, they existed), The Late Great Planet Earth doesn't have a definite timetable. It isn't difficult to understand. I had a book on Revelations that was far more complicated. Due to the eschatology craze of the time, to this day my eyes start to glaze over when someone mentions Daniel's weeks.

The thing about eschatology is that it isn't a "grift." We can argue about the particulars (well, the rest of you can; see "my eyes start to glaze over" above), but not eschatology itself. Some of the objections reminds me of an argument at a church business meeting where some wanted to cut down trees they thought were in danger of falling on the church and others arguing it wasn't necessary because "They've been here all these years and haven't fallen yet."

There's another thing, so far overlooked in this topic: Each of us faces our own personal end-time "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment;" (Hebrews 9:27). Whatever anyone things of eschatology, all of us will our own passing. And that's no grift at all.

“Late Great Planet Earth,” has been off the best seller’s list for years. The Gospel of John is ever popular. It has verses about a shepherd and sheep. Jesus was not able to abandon his disciples and flee the Garden of Gethsemane when he saw the armed men approaching. He stayed and pled for the release of his disciples. He laid down his life for his friends. They did not have sufficient numbers to overpower the servants of the chief priests, those of the Sanhedrin.

I was a reading a list of popular male names in America. John, Matthew, Mark, Paul and Peter were there. I did not find Luke on the list.

dzheremi · Jan 28, 2023

parousia70 said:
It was American protestant evangelical Christianity that foisted this grift upon the population… Sure, the bloom did indeed fall off the rose for the secular world rather swiftly, but the fanaticism in the evangelical circles has only grown. It’s much more fervent now than it was in the 70s.

They might not sell as many books today, but the grift continues…

When you have an ever-shrinking market to sell to, you have to push your product even harder. It also doesn't hurt to diversify, and-- say, is that another Pureflix-brand Left Behind movie? Oh, wait, I'm sorry...Pure Flix doesn't do the Left Behind series of movies. They do the God's Not Dead series of movies. My mistake.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jan 28, 2023

ByTheSpirit said:
The reason for Church attendance decline to me is the focus on churches becoming more seeker friendly. When the church offers nothing new to its people, they leave. People are taught come to God and your problems disappear, and when the problems persist, they leave.

Churches have lost touch with the Holy Spirit who fell on the 120 on the Day of Pentecost. What most church call the power of the Holy Spirit is just a damp squib. Too much organising in the supper room instead of agonising in the upper room. Instead of prophets there are puppets. A church that is not supernatural is superficial. Professing Christians are playing instead of praying.

coffee4u · Jan 29, 2023

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
How do Churches avoid being political and social societies on a basic level? The Church has always been a society of sorts and always been engaged in the political to one degree or another. Which aspect of these is causing a decline?

Churches need to teach the pure milk and then the meat of the Word, but instead they have put one foot into the world. People are deceived by listening to teachings that their itching ears wish to hear.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jan 29, 2023

coffee4u said:
Churches need to teach the pure milk and then the meat of the Word, but instead they have put one foot into the world. People are deceived by listening to teachings that their itching ears wish to hear.

The Church has always had one foot in the world and it hasn't really stopped Christianity from growing until modernity. There are causes behind this that cannot be explained away by saying we aren't teaching correctly. It seems to me are seeing the rampant effects of technology (how it isolates us socially and disconnects us from real flesh and blood people), entertainment (conditioning us with certain narratives which emotionally deconstruct Christian narratives), secular education (which is essentially Godless and doesn't build up faith) and the unwillingness of Christians to visibly separate themselves from the wider society. That last point in particular is crucial because we seem to think we can be better Christians by attaching ourselves to these larger units which operate on different pretenses than what Christians do, be work, nation or whatever else that dissolves what should be the natural bonds of Christians.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jan 29, 2023

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
The Church has always had one foot in the world and it hasn't really stopped Christianity from growing until modernity. There are causes behind this that cannot be explained away by saying we aren't teaching correctly. It seems to me are seeing the rampant effects of technology (how it isolates us socially and disconnects us from real flesh and blood people), entertainment (conditioning us with certain narratives which emotionally deconstruct Christian narratives), secular education (which is essentially Godless and doesn't build up faith) and the unwillingness of Christians to visibly separate themselves from the wider society. That last point in particular is crucial because we seem to think we can be better Christians by attaching ourselves to these larger units which operate on different pretenses than what Christians do, be work, nation or whatever else that dissolves what should be the natural bonds of Christians.

There is a Scripture that a friend of the world is no friend of God, and that they who are in the flesh cannot please God. If the large part of the Church has one foot in the world and are functioning in the flesh rather than the Spirit, then it would be fair to say that the large part of the Church is still unconverted and this is why services in those churches are flat and powerless. All they have is religion, like the Laodicean church that Jesus said was poor, blind and naked, instead of the successful church they thought they were.

It begs the question: How can a church that has one foot in the world and therefore not converted, get people genuinely saved?

ByTheSpirit · Jan 29, 2023

Watchman1 said:
Churches have lost touch with the Holy Spirit who fell on the 120 on the Day of Pentecost. What most church call the power of the Holy Spirit is just a damp squib. Too much organising in the supper room instead of agonising in the upper room. Instead of prophets there are puppets. A church that is not supernatural is superficial. Professing Christians are playing instead of praying.

no argument from me, personal examples serve no purpose but I could share a few of what you speak and its sad.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jan 29, 2023

ByTheSpirit said:
no argument from me, personal examples serve no purpose but I could share a few of what you speak and its sad.

I will repeat what I posted in another thread:

The reason why I am saying the things I am saying about the church in general is not to "beat up the body of Christ" as one member accused me of doing. The church I attend is a Union, Methodist/Presbyterian non-Charismatic church that if we get 20 to a service it is a revival. Although I am Spirit-filled Reformed, we have people who are modernist liberals as well. But they are welcoming and accepting when I preach the Word to them. But I am also praying for them that they will receive more of the Holy Spirit and have a clearer appreciation of who Jesus is.

What I am reflecting in my posts, is that no matter how fruitful a church is, there is more that we can receive from God, especially in the power of the Holy Spirit to awaken the secular community to their danger as they are on the road to hell. No matter how many blessing we receive in our churches, there are multitudes around our churches who are going to hell. So, I feel a dissatisfaction that we are not getting hold of God to access the dynamic power of the Holy Spirit that convicts sinners outside of the church of sin, righteousness and judgment to come.

We should not rest in satisfaction that our programmes are bearing fruit for our members, but we should have a greater burden for those who are lost. That burden can come only from the heart of God through the work of the Holy Spirit in us, and the only way that can happen is through constant prayer that lays hold of God and won't let Him go until the Holy Spirit falls.

My church is probably nowhere as fruitful as yours, but I have decided not to let that stop me from expressing dissatisfaction with the general state of the churches and calling out for more believers who will pray without ceasing for revival that will bring a harvest of souls for the Lord.

Sir Robbins · Jan 29, 2023

what caused my former church to fail was they pushed for discipleship outside the church and neglected what was going on within and they started to fail internally as a result. They changed their name to add the phrase "a church, distributed" and it went downhill fast from there. Sure the outreach was good but it is that great when you start neglecting your own congregation at the desire to bring in new folks?

Presbyterian Continuist · Jan 29, 2023

I heard David Wilkerson telling of young people that he had led to the Lord through Teen Challenge and when he took them along to a church, they wouldn't accept the converts because "they might ruin our young people with their immoral ways and drug taking". These converts had wonderfully received Jesus as their Saviour and were working with the Holy Spirit to get them free from their former lives. As a result of the rejection by that church. some of them walked right away from Christ, saying that "these people were supposed to be Christians, but they don't believe in the same Christ that David told us about. We feel scammed into religion which we no longer want." It would suck to be those religious church people when they have to face up to Christ at the Judgment.

My daughter received Christ as an 11 year old and attended church with me until she was around 16. Then she was invited to teach Sunday School at a local Pentecostal church. At 17, as a result of being bullied at school she developed clinical depression and struggled with that for the next year until she came right. I asked her whether she wanted to go back to church. She told me, "No. I don't want those people to tell me how to live." It seemed that there were people at that church who were imposing that church's rules on young people as to what they should wear, the type of makeup they should have, and what was an acceptable hairstyle. I suspect they told her that being depressed was a sin and she needed a spirit of depression cast out of her. It seemed to me that these church people didn't know what the grace of God was all about and that it is the Holy Spirit who changes people into who God wants them to be. Also, a person is not fully converted to Christ in five minutes. It takes time, love and support from fellow believers who know the grace of God and who are patient for the Holy Spirit to renew a convert's mind. I think my daughter did the right thing to ditch that church with its hypocrites in it, even though it advertises itself as "Spirit-filled". But with people there imposing rules and regulations on young people I just wonder if they know what spirit they are of. Certainly not the Holy Spirit. I am praying for her that the Holy Spirit will guide her back to Christ and to a church that loves Jesus and accepts people for who they are and has the tolerance and faith to allow the Holy Spirit to transform her by the renewing of her mind.

ByTheSpirit · Jan 30, 2023

Watchman1 said:
I heard David Wilkerson telling of young people that he had led to the Lord through Teen Challenge and when he took them along to a church, they wouldn't accept the converts because "they might ruin our young people with their immoral ways and drug taking". These converts had wonderfully received Jesus as their Saviour and were working with the Holy Spirit to get them free from their former lives. As a result of the rejection by that church. some of them walked right away from Christ, saying that "these people were supposed to be Christians, but they don't believe in the same Christ that David told us about. We feel scammed into religion which we no longer want." It would suck to be those religious church people when they have to face up to Christ at the Judgment.

My daughter received Christ as an 11 year old and attended church with me until she was around 16. Then she was invited to teach Sunday School at a local Pentecostal church. At 17, as a result of being bullied at school she developed clinical depression and struggled with that for the next year until she came right. I asked her whether she wanted to go back to church. She told me, "No. I don't want those people to tell me how to live." It seemed that there were people at that church who were imposing that church's rules on young people as to what they should wear, the type of makeup they should have, and what was an acceptable hairstyle. I suspect they told her that being depressed was a sin and she needed a spirit of depression cast out of her. It seemed to me that these church people didn't know what the grace of God was all about and that it is the Holy Spirit who changes people into who God wants them to be. Also, a person is not fully converted to Christ in five minutes. It takes time, love and support from fellow believers who know the grace of God and who are patient for the Holy Spirit to renew a convert's mind. I think my daughter did the right thing to ditch that church with its hypocrites in it, even though it advertises itself as "Spirit-filled". But with people there imposing rules and regulations on young people I just wonder if they know what spirit they are of. Certainly not the Holy Spirit. I am praying for her that the Holy Spirit will guide her back to Christ and to a church that loves Jesus and accepts people for who they are and has the tolerance and faith to allow the Holy Spirit to transform her by the renewing of her mind.

You bring up a very good point here that is worth repeating and really hammering. The attitude of Churchians towards outsiders.

I was once in a church of about 350 or so. Middle of the sermon and an African American walks into the congregation with street clothes on. The entire congregation at the same time deeply gasped and exhaled and it became eerily silent, sermon even stopped, until this kid left. I felt so disgusted after that. I was just a teen at the time, but that is just one experience of many where Ive seen Churchians run people away from Christ with a holier than thou attitude and it is absolutely repulsive.

iluvatar5150 · Jan 30, 2023

Tuur said:
"Grift," eh? Are you speaking as an evangelical or as someone from the outside looking in?

I'm an evangelical and this movement is absolutely loaded with grift. Prosperity gospel is grift. The hyper-politicization is grift. The end time fervor is grift.

The church isn't going to grow until it starts offering something to people that they need and that they can't get anywhere else. This is easier to do when your congregation is poor, uneducated, inclined towards authoritarian moralism, and trusting of institutions - but all of those are becoming less true every day. When the congregation is more affluent, they don't need the church to fill their material needs. When the congregation is educated, it becomes more difficult for the church to stimulate their intellectual curiosity about scripture, faith, and spirituality and more difficult for the church to counsel them on their inter-personal interactions. When the congregation is less inclined towards authoritarian moralism, decrying the sins of others becomes less attractive and more obviously hypocritical. When the congregation stops trusting institutions, they stop seeing The Church as being a net benefit for society.

Much of the evangelical church is stuck in a rut, clinging to a worldview that's shallow and self-serving. And more and more folks can see through the facade.

lismore · Jan 30, 2023

The USA has similar issues to the UK, but I think the UK is further down the road. This parable is relevant I think:

Matthew 13: 45 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls, 46 who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it"

Someone who has been truly born again has the Kingdom of God as their priority, they might be buffeted but the Kingdom of God will still be their priority. What they have is real and cannot be taken away. The merchant sold all that he had to gain the pearl of great price. All in. That just isn't happening in great numbers in our day. It is something only the true gospel of Jesus Christ can do. Wherever the true gospel is preached there is fruit, good fruit. It's not about preaching/ worship style or fashion, age or social status, these are pretexts, the truly born again believer is sold out for God and would walk over hot coals to serve God and his people.

Sadly false gospels create false converts and allow wolves into leadership positions who tear others. The antidote, the gospel. To scare off wolves and bring back the wounded sheep.

God Bless

Andrewn · Feb 1, 2023

Assemblies of God Growing with Pentecostal Persistence

How has the 3.2-million-member denomination avoided decline?

Assemblies of God Growing with Pentecostal Persistence - Christianity Today

How has the 3.2-million-member denomination avoided decline?

www.christianitytoday.com

SavedByGrace3 · Feb 1, 2023

Conformity to worldly standards does not build a strong and growing church. The first time a "socially acceptable" church runs into a little opposition or persecution, the less committed members run for the hills: or maybe a more "moderate to liberal" congregation where they are more comfortable. The more "liberal to moderate" a church becomes, that is the more "socially relevant and conforming" it is, the less Christian it becomes. You may as well join the moose lodge or some dance club.
Christianity is radical. It has "new creatures" that hold to values that do not match cultural standards (watch the current news).
I suspect the AoG is growing because Christians are leaving other less dedicated congregations to get with the genuine thing. All Pentecostal Churches benefit in the long run because they do not step back from their stance on Holiness, the true Gospel, the Baptism in the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues. Also the gospel fact that healing is included in the atonement. This is something that many churches have stepped away from.

iluvatar5150 · Feb 1, 2023

Andrewn said:
Assemblies of God Growing with Pentecostal Persistence
How has the 3.2-million-member denomination avoided decline?

Assemblies of God Growing with Pentecostal Persistence - Christianity Today

How has the 3.2-million-member denomination avoided decline?

www.christianitytoday.com

If I had to guess, it’s the combination of moderate levels of pentecostal hooplah, moderate levels of prosperity theology, and moderately hip aesthetic that’ve kept their numbers up.

Growing up, the AG churches I knew were super conservative in both belief and aesthetic, whereas as an adult, I’ve been surprised on more than one occasion to find that the church I’m visiting is AG. Somewhere in the late 90’s / early 2000’s, they seem to have had a big makeover where the leaders all discovered tailored shirts and tight jeans. They allow women pastors, so they dodge some of the usual sexism charges. And they keep the hamalahamala and prosperity stuff sufficiently low key that they’re not immediately branded as weirdos and scammers.

Southern Baptists, OTOH, are still Southern Baptists. There might be fewer suits and louder music, but our changes haven’t been nearly as drastic.

SavedByGrace3 said:
Conformity to worldly standards does not build a strong and growing church.

idk about strong, but it can certainly grow a church. You just have to expand your concept of “worldly” beyond some vague wokeness or something. Adopting corporate strategies for audience growth is still an example of conforming to the world.

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