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We need more meat and not as much milk

Jeff Saunders

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This is for the encouragement of the UR camp . Hebrews 5:11-6:2 “Concerning this we have an abundance of things to say, and it is difficult to explain since you have become lethargic as listeners For indeed though by this time you ought to be teachers, you again have need of someone to teach you the most elementary principles of God’s oracles, and have come to require milk, not solid food. For everyone who feeds on milk is without experience in the word of righteousness, since he is an infant; But solid food is for full -grown men, whose sensibilities have been trained by use to discern both good and evil. Therefore, departing from the elementary message about the Anointed, let us press onward to full maturity, not establishing yet again the foundation: of turning the heart away from dead observances, and of faithfulness toward God; Instruction regarding baptism, as well as the laying-on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and the judgement of the age.” Sometimes it drives me nuts that so many people do not understand what Jesus did on the cross , no matter how many times you show them from scripture they just don’t understand. Then I was reading this verse above and I was wondering if the reason they don’t get it is because we in the UR camp are munching down on a T-bone steak and they are sipping on milk and are happy with the milk and don’t even realize that there is meat they think the milk is it. If you don’t get the resurrection of the dead, and the judgement of the age correct which is milk how are they ever going to understand the whole of what God is doing.I have even been told your overstating Gods love , like that’s possible, how can you go above infinite? Can you you infinite plus one? If you don’t understand that God is infinite love and infinite power then the whole idea of God loving the world and his power to rescue His whole creation is nonsense. It’s like when we try to show them they think , how is that steak going to fit in my sippy cup, they just don’t understand God yet they are not ready for steak they don’t even have the milk thing correct and we wonder why they don’t see it. I wonder if they have been blinded by the god of this world, because he likes it when we think God is weak and can’t overcome satan’s plan to usurp his Gods plan.
 

Maria Billingsley

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This is for the encouragement of the UR camp . Hebrews 5:11-6:2 “Concerning this we have an abundance of things to say, and it is difficult to explain since you have become lethargic as listeners For indeed though by this time you ought to be teachers, you again have need of someone to teach you the most elementary principles of God’s oracles, and have come to require milk, not solid food. For everyone who feeds on milk is without experience in the word of righteousness, since he is an infant; But solid food is for full -grown men, whose sensibilities have been trained by use to discern both good and evil. Therefore, departing from the elementary message about the Anointed, let us press onward to full maturity, not establishing yet again the foundation: of turning the heart away from dead observances, and of faithfulness toward God; Instruction regarding baptism, as well as the laying-on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and the judgement of the age.” Sometimes it drives me nuts that so many people do not understand what Jesus did on the cross , no matter how many times you show them from scripture they just don’t understand. Then I was reading this verse above and I was wondering if the reason they don’t get it is because we in the UR camp are munching down on a T-bone steak and they are sipping on milk and are happy with the milk and don’t even realize that there is meat they think the milk is it. If you don’t get the resurrection of the dead, and the judgement of the age correct which is milk how are they ever going to understand the whole of what God is doing.I have even been told your overstating Gods love , like that’s possible, how can you go above infinite? Can you you infinite plus one? If you don’t understand that God is infinite love and infinite power then the whole idea of God loving the world and his power to rescue His whole creation is nonsense. It’s like when we try to show them they think , how is that steak going to fit in my sippy cup, they just don’t understand God yet they are not ready for steak they don’t even have the milk thing correct and we wonder why they don’t see it. I wonder if they have been blinded by the god of this world, because he likes it when we think God is weak and can’t overcome satan’s plan to usurp his Gods plan.
Curious why you posted in " controversial ". If you are preaching " meat" as you say, there should be no controversy. God is not the author of confusion yet, this is very controversial ,confusing and a stumbling block for many.
Also, since UR is a moving target, can you with confidence give a concise and clear explanation of this theological system? Thanks for your help!
Blessings.
 
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bling

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Are there things that are impossible to do, even God cannot do them?
Could God make another Christ, if Christ is not a created being?
Can God make us choose of our own free will (which he gave us) to Love someone we have chosen of our own free will not to Love?
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Curious why you posted in " controversial ". If you are preaching " meat" as you say, there should be no controversy. God is not the author of confusion yet, this is very controversial ,confusing and a stumbling block for many.
Also, since UR is a moving target, can you with confidence give a concise and clear explanation of this theological system? Thanks for your help!
Blessings.
I posted in the controversial because on this forum thats the place that they have allowed it to be , I dont think its controversial but others do . As for it being a moving target how is it any different from any other way of looking at scripture ? Do you think that any other group does't have differing ideas about how the Bible should be explained? Besides God is a infinite God and we are finite and look through a glass dimly so anyone who thinks they got God figured out 100% is just deceiving themselves.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I posted in the controversial because on this forum thats the place that they have allowed it to be , I dont think its controversial but others do . As for it being a moving target how is it any different from any other way of looking at scripture ? Do you think that any other group does't have differing ideas about how the Bible should be explained? Besides God is a infinite God and we are finite and look through a glass dimly so anyone who thinks they got God figured out 100% is just deceiving themselves.
So your are not able to provide a concise theological explanation of UR?
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Are there things that are impossible to do, even God cannot do them?
Could God make another Christ, if Christ is not a created being?
Can God make us choose of our own free will (which he gave us) to Love someone we have chosen of our own free will not to Love?
the only things that are impossible for God is for him to go against his nature, he can't lie, he can't do anything that is not loving. God never will go against our free will ( he is the one who gave it to us) but the difference is when you have tasted and seen Gods love you then know that no person can reject that love forever, God does not give up , the whole leave the 99 till the one is found thing, he will pursue all his creation untill God is all in all 1Cor 15;28 I still don't get why so many people think that this time in a mortal body is the only time that matters . Phil 2:10
" that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth " I do believe those under the earth are those who have has the mortal body die.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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So your are not able to provide a concise theological explanation of UR?
UR can be explained by the Greek word that the early Greek church called Apokatastasis which is that God will reconcile all his creation to himself. also we translate the Hebrew Olam and the Greek word aionios as of the age or age enduring not eternal . then we read scripture through the lens that John 4:42 when it says Jesus is the savior of the world , we say yes not but he is only the potential savior \John 17:2 God gave Jesus authority over all flesh that to all whom God gave him, he may give life John 13:3 the Father has given all things into Jesus. all flesh is all flesh not some flesh \Rom 5:8 Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation of all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. again all men not some\2 Peter 3:9 Gods will that none should parish , we dont make up two wills of God to justify this verse.\Col 1:19-22 God is to reconcile all things to himself through Jesus , again all is all not some\1 Tim 2:3-6 God wants all men to be saved , and he is God and God gets what he wants\Phil 2:10-11 Every knee should bow in heaven and earth and under the earth and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, every tongue confess the very thing we are told is what we must do to follow Jesus. There are many more verses but I think you get the idea . really what I do if is put the emphasis on these verses and filter other scripture through them instead of taking what people say is a eternal hell and try to add to or take away from from the plain reading of all the scripture that says Jesus is the savior of the world . thats the condensed version as I see it.
 
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bling

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the only things that are impossible for God is for him to go against his nature, he can't lie, he can't do anything that is not loving. God never will go against our free will ( he is the one who gave it to us) but the difference is when you have tasted and seen Gods love you then know that no person can reject that love forever, God does not give up , the whole leave the 99 till the one is found thing, he will pursue all his creation untill God is all in all 1Cor 15;28 I still don't get why so many people think that this time in a mortal body is the only time that matters . Phil 2:10
" that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth " I do believe those under the earth are those who have has the mortal body die.
If A=B and B=C than A=C and God cannot change that.

If Christ is not a made being than God cannot create another Christ.

You are making man’s problem out to be a knowledge issue: “when you have tasted and seen Gods love you then know that no person can reject that love forever”. Where do you find that in scripture? There are lots of places where people refuse God’s Love. You say: “God never will go against our free will”, but God has gone against lots of people’s free will choice, Jonah went the other way for a while.

If knowledge was the problem, God could easily provide knowledge to everyone, so there would be no reason for humans to waste their time on this cruel world, so why are we here?

Yes, God can knock out our legs from under us and we will drop to our knees, there are lots of ways to get us on our knees, but only dome people willingly want to bow before Christ and did bow before him while on earth.

If you are saying everyone will eventually accept God’s Love and Love God, to avoid continuing torment, that would only be true if you redefine Godly type Love to be some robotic knee jerk reaction or a forced “love”.

Everything needs to start with the objective.

The differences and issues begin with misunderstanding of the objective. Most Christians like: Man’s objective is to “bring glory to God” and have scripture references to support that objective, but a person can take any commandment or direction of God given in scripture and have Biblical support for call that command: “Man’s Objective”. We are certainly commanded to do that command, so why is it not man’s objective?

There are the two superior commands which all other commands are subordinate to and combined would be like: “Love God (and secondly others) with all your heart, soul, mind, and energy.” That appears to be man’s “Mission Statement”. The huge problem with fulfilling that “Mission Statement” is the fact that the “Love” needed would have to be huge, way beyond anything man could develop, learn, deserve, earn, pay back, be instinctive to man, or somehow just be forced upon humans.

Thus, the reason you have free will, is because it is required for you to complete your earthly objective.

This messed up world which includes satan roaming around is not here for your pleasure, but to help each of us to become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

There are just somethings even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), like create another Christ, since Christ has always existed, the big impossibility for us is; create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also, if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type Love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)

Read the story of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15, the young son was generously given more then he could handle (like most of us today), which the father would realize. The prodigal son returned to his father, not out of “Love”, but selfishly wanting a job he did not deserve or should even ask for. Just because the son became just willing to accept pure undeserved charity from the father he hated, allowed the father to shower him with gifts. God is that way with you.

God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest gift being having a Love like His.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.

God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force [Love] in all universes, since that force [Love] compels even God to do all He does) and thus the willing become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time.

This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them, burden them, to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

Sin has purpose in helping willing humans in fulfilling their objective. God does not like it but allows it.

Unfortunately, I, along with others, needed to see and know the brevity of life in order to respond sooner than later. Time is not on our side, since we do not get better, but worse. If everyone had at least 60 years, there would be no rush to repent and repenting does not get easier with time. We all tend to spiral down into the pigsty of life (like the prodigal son) and that does help, if when we do come to our senses we turn to the Father, but that does not have to take 60 years.

Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.

If the nonbeliever had knowledge of God's existence that person would not need faith in God's existence, but faith is needed for humility and humility is needed to humbly accept pure charity and the only way to get Godly type Love is through accepting it as pure charity in the form of forgiveness.

This also shows a “need” for man to sin.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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If A=B and B=C than A=C and God cannot change that.

If Christ is not a made being than God cannot create another Christ.

You are making man’s problem out to be a knowledge issue: “when you have tasted and seen Gods love you then know that no person can reject that love forever”. Where do you find that in scripture? There are lots of places where people refuse God’s Love. You say: “God never will go against our free will”, but God has gone against lots of people’s free will choice, Jonah went the other way for a while.

If knowledge was the problem, God could easily provide knowledge to everyone, so there would be no reason for humans to waste their time on this cruel world, so why are we here?

Yes, God can knock out our legs from under us and we will drop to our knees, there are lots of ways to get us on our knees, but only dome people willingly want to bow before Christ and did bow before him while on earth.

If you are saying everyone will eventually accept God’s Love and Love God, to avoid continuing torment, that would only be true if you redefine Godly type Love to be some robotic knee jerk reaction or a forced “love”.

Everything needs to start with the objective.

The differences and issues begin with misunderstanding of the objective. Most Christians like: Man’s objective is to “bring glory to God” and have scripture references to support that objective, but a person can take any commandment or direction of God given in scripture and have Biblical support for call that command: “Man’s Objective”. We are certainly commanded to do that command, so why is it not man’s objective?

There are the two superior commands which all other commands are subordinate to and combined would be like: “Love God (and secondly others) with all your heart, soul, mind, and energy.” That appears to be man’s “Mission Statement”. The huge problem with fulfilling that “Mission Statement” is the fact that the “Love” needed would have to be huge, way beyond anything man could develop, learn, deserve, earn, pay back, be instinctive to man, or somehow just be forced upon humans.

Thus, the reason you have free will, is because it is required for you to complete your earthly objective.

This messed up world which includes satan roaming around is not here for your pleasure, but to help each of us to become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

There are just somethings even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), like create another Christ, since Christ has always existed, the big impossibility for us is; create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also, if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type Love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)

Read the story of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15, the young son was generously given more then he could handle (like most of us today), which the father would realize. The prodigal son returned to his father, not out of “Love”, but selfishly wanting a job he did not deserve or should even ask for. Just because the son became just willing to accept pure undeserved charity from the father he hated, allowed the father to shower him with gifts. God is that way with you.

God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest gift being having a Love like His.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.

God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force [Love] in all universes, since that force [Love] compels even God to do all He does) and thus the willing become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time.

This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them, burden them, to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

Sin has purpose in helping willing humans in fulfilling their objective. God does not like it but allows it.

Unfortunately, I, along with others, needed to see and know the brevity of life in order to respond sooner than later. Time is not on our side, since we do not get better, but worse. If everyone had at least 60 years, there would be no rush to repent and repenting does not get easier with time. We all tend to spiral down into the pigsty of life (like the prodigal son) and that does help, if when we do come to our senses we turn to the Father, but that does not have to take 60 years.

Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.

If the nonbeliever had knowledge of God's existence that person would not need faith in God's existence, but faith is needed for humility and humility is needed to humbly accept pure charity and the only way to get Godly type Love is through accepting it as pure charity in the form of forgiveness.

This also shows a “need” for man to sin.
I am sorry but I am having a hard time understanding what you are getting at. Let me ask a few questions , why is it impossible for God to create a person with instinctively Godly love ? He is God after all if thats what he wanted he could do it. and why would God have a totally unselfish love because he would not get anything out of it? It seems you think God need to get something out of it when God needs nothing he is totally sufficient in himself he has no needs.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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UR can be explained by the Greek word that the early Greek church called Apokatastasis which is that God will reconcile all his creation to himself. also we translate the Hebrew Olam and the Greek word aionios as of the age or age enduring not eternal . then we read scripture through the lens that John 4:42 when it says Jesus is the savior of the world , we say yes not but he is only the potential savior \John 17:2 God gave Jesus authority over all flesh that to all whom God gave him, he may give life John 13:3 the Father has given all things into Jesus. all flesh is all flesh not some flesh \Rom 5:8 Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation of all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. again all men not some\2 Peter 3:9 Gods will that none should parish , we dont make up two wills of God to justify this verse.\Col 1:19-22 God is to reconcile all things to himself through Jesus , again all is all not some\1 Tim 2:3-6 God wants all men to be saved , and he is God and God gets what he wants\Phil 2:10-11 Every knee should bow in heaven and earth and under the earth and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, every tongue confess the very thing we are told is what we must do to follow Jesus. There are many more verses but I think you get the idea . really what I do if is put the emphasis on these verses and filter other scripture through them instead of taking what people say is a eternal hell and try to add to or take away from from the plain reading of all the scripture that says Jesus is the savior of the world . thats the condensed version as I see it.
Thanks for sharing but none of the scriptures quoted give us the doctrine of Universal Reconciliation. One must be " in Him" in order to be saved. The only way is to believe "in Him".
Blessings.
 
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UR can be explained by the Greek word that the early Greek church called Apokatastasis which is that God will reconcile all his creation to himself. also we translate the Hebrew Olam and the Greek word aionios as of the age or age enduring not eternal . ***
Both "aionios" and "olam" are adjectives. "Age" is a noun. An adjective cannot be translated as a noun. In the 1906 Jewish Publication Society translation "olam" is translated "ever lasting" 300+ times. Never "age."
Link to JPS: Online Bible

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB p. 96]
…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB p. 518]
In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. One cannot translate a noun as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the NT 2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in, e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.
 
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This is for the encouragement of the UR camp . Hebrews 5:11-6:2 “Concerning this we have an abundance of things to say, and it is difficult to explain since you have become lethargic as listeners For indeed though by this time you ought to be teachers, you again have need of someone to teach you the most elementary principles of God’s oracles, and have come to require milk, not solid food. For everyone who feeds on milk is without experience in the word of righteousness, since he is an infant; But solid food is for full -grown men, whose sensibilities have been trained by use to discern both good and evil. Therefore, departing from the elementary message about the Anointed, let us press onward to full maturity, not establishing yet again the foundation: of turning the heart away from dead observances, and of faithfulness toward God; Instruction regarding baptism, as well as the laying-on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and the judgement of the age.” Sometimes it drives me nuts that so many people do not understand what Jesus did on the cross , no matter how many times you show them from scripture they just don’t understand. Then I was reading this verse above and I was wondering if the reason they don’t get it is because we in the UR camp are munching down on a T-bone steak and they are sipping on milk and are happy with the milk and don’t even realize that there is meat they think the milk is it. If you don’t get the resurrection of the dead, and the judgement of the age correct which is milk how are they ever going to understand the whole of what God is doing.I have even been told your overstating Gods love , like that’s possible, how can you go above infinite? Can you you infinite plus one? If you don’t understand that God is infinite love and infinite power then the whole idea of God loving the world and his power to rescue His whole creation is nonsense. It’s like when we try to show them they think , how is that steak going to fit in my sippy cup, they just don’t understand God yet they are not ready for steak they don’t even have the milk thing correct and we wonder why they don’t see it. I wonder if they have been blinded by the god of this world, because he likes it when we think God is weak and can’t overcome satan’s plan to usurp his Gods plan.
If you were right I would agree with you. You are not. God offers salvation to all. Not all accept it. Unbelievers will die twice, believers will never die. There is no Bible statement to the effect that people escape the lake of fire. God will not have dead people in His kingdom or in the new heavens and new earth. You need to grow up and learn that God must be taken seriously. It's a terrifying thing to fall into His hands.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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This is for the encouragement of the UR camp . Hebrews 5:11-6:2 “Concerning this we have an abundance of things to say, and it is difficult to explain since you have become lethargic as listeners For indeed though by this time you ought to be teachers, you again have need of someone to teach you the most elementary principles of God’s oracles, and have come to require milk, not solid food. For everyone who feeds on milk is without experience in the word of righteousness, since he is an infant; But solid food is for full -grown men, whose sensibilities have been trained by use to discern both good and evil. Therefore, departing from the elementary message about the Anointed, let us press onward to full maturity, not establishing yet again the foundation: of turning the heart away from dead observances, and of faithfulness toward God; Instruction regarding baptism, as well as the laying-on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and the judgement of the age.” Sometimes it drives me nuts that so many people do not understand what Jesus did on the cross , no matter how many times you show them from scripture they just don’t understand. Then I was reading this verse above and I was wondering if the reason they don’t get it is because we in the UR camp are munching down on a T-bone steak and they are sipping on milk and are happy with the milk and don’t even realize that there is meat they think the milk is it. If you don’t get the resurrection of the dead, and the judgement of the age correct which is milk how are they ever going to understand the whole of what God is doing.I have even been told your overstating Gods love , like that’s possible, how can you go above infinite? Can you you infinite plus one? If you don’t understand that God is infinite love and infinite power then the whole idea of God loving the world and his power to rescue His whole creation is nonsense. It’s like when we try to show them they think , how is that steak going to fit in my sippy cup, they just don’t understand God yet they are not ready for steak they don’t even have the milk thing correct and we wonder why they don’t see it. I wonder if they have been blinded by the god of this world, because he likes it when we think God is weak and can’t overcome satan’s plan to usurp his Gods plan.
It is interesting what Paul states "baby" milk doctrines and teachings to be. Who would have deemed these topics to be the elementary, first principles of the oracles of God?

Hebrews 6:1-3 KJV
1. Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2. Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3. And this will we do, if God permit.

  1. the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of
  2. faith toward God,
  3. the doctrine of baptisms, and of
  4. laying on of hands, and of
  5. resurrection of the dead, and of
  6. eternal judgment.
Who would have thought "laying on of hands" to be a foundational teaching?
Some would question that resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment to be "milk" doctrines.
If these be "elementary" doctrines, what would be the "mature" doctrines?
Obvious to me that there is more to these things than most believe.
Derek Prince did a very good series on "Foundational Truths."
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Both "aionios" and "olam" are adjectives. "Age" is a noun. An adjective cannot be translated as a noun. In the 1906 Jewish Publication Society translation "olam" is translated "ever lasting" 300+ times. Never "age."
Link to JPS: Online Bible

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB p. 96]
…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB p. 518]
In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. One cannot translate a noun as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the NT 2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in, e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.
You know modern Greek so let me ask you a question I was listening to a orthodox priest who said in Greek there are words that the same word can be used as a noun and an adjective, are you familiar with that?
 
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Jeff Saunders

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If you were right I would agree with you. You are not. God offers salvation to all. Not all accept it. Unbelievers will die twice, believers will never die. There is no Bible statement to the effect that people escape the lake of fire. God will not have dead people in His kingdom or in the new heavens and new earth. You need to grow up and learn that God must be taken seriously. It's a terrifying thing to fall into His hands.
So you think believers mortal body doesn’t die? And I would like you to show what scripture you use that says people can’t accept Jesus after the mortal body dies. The only verse that people use to defend that view is It is appointed once for man to die then the judgement, but it never says the judgement is eternal hell but that’s what is read into that very.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Thanks for sharing but none of the scriptures quoted give us the doctrine of Universal Reconciliation. One must be " in Him" in order to be saved. The only way is to believe "in Him".
Blessings.
They may not give you the doctrine of UR but they give you the truth of UR . And yes one must be in Him , that is why Jesus said no one comes to the Father but through me. The point is God does not give up on us just be your mortal body dies. Why do you think you can only accept Jesus while in the mortal body? Scripture does not say that anyplace I can see.
 
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Der Alte

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You know modern Greek so let me ask you a question I was listening to a orthodox priest who said in Greek there are words that the same word can be used as a noun and an adjective, are you familiar with that?
I studied Greek at the graduate level and NEVER "heard" that. Too bad we can't find some credible, verifiable, historical evidence.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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I love the discussions about Greek, translations, and transcriptions.
But I think that most of what Jesus spoke was in Aramaic. Please feel free to educate me.
If the gospels were Greek translations of Aramaic stories, then we are at the mercy of those who translated them from A to G.
So in some cases we are getting the Aramaic (maybe Hebrew) to the Greek to the Latin to the old English to the modern English.
Discouraging for the student of scriptures. I end up just doing my best to listen to the Holy Spirit.
Can you encourage me in this regard???
 
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Der Alte

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I love the discussions about Greek, translations, and transcriptions.
But I think that most of what Jesus spoke was in Aramaic. Please feel free to educate me.
If the gospels were Greek translations of Aramaic stories, then we are at the mercy of those who translated them from A to G.
So in some cases we are getting the Aramaic (maybe Hebrew) to the Greek to the Latin to the old English to the modern English.
Discouraging for the student of scriptures. I end up just doing my best to listen to the Holy Spirit.
Can you encourage me in this regard???
That is the rumor. But only Matthew was said to have been written in a language other than Greek either Aramaic or Hebrew. It would not make sense for the disciples to write in Aramaic or Hebrew then send the writings to peoples that did not speak either; Rome, Galatia, Ephesus, Corinth, Philippi, Colossae etc,
 
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SavedByGrace3

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That is the rumor. But only Matthew was said to have been written in a language other than Greek either Aramaic or Hebrew. It would not make sense for the disciples to write in Aramaic or Hebrew then send the writings to peoples that did not speak either; Rome, Galatia, Ephesus, Corinth, Philippi, Colossae etc,
Yeah, I see what you mean. Perhaps Paul knew Greek. Even Luke. But Peter, John, and Mark. I wonder.
Thanks!
BTW, you were a beautiful baby! :blush:
 
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