When does the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast BEGIN?

5thKingdom · Jan 16, 2023

The Scripture is clear:

The Revelation Beast (the Great Tribulation) BEGINS after the Last Saint is "sealed" (saved).
Consider the implications of this Biblical fact... First, there is no 1000 period AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed".
And secondly, that means Salvation ENDS before the Revelation Beast (the Great Tribulation) BEGINS.

Rev 7:1-3
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth,
that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east,
having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

The Great Commission of the Church Age continues as the Saints "lived and reigned with Christ" completing the "Body of Christ"
AFTER the Great Commission ENDS at the "End-of-the-Age [Mat 28:18-20] AFTER the Last Saint has been "sealed" (saved)
THEN (and only then) can the Revelation Beast / Great Tribulation BEGIN
Rev 7:1-3 PROVES this reality.

(1) Those teaching there is a 1000 year period AFTER the Great Commission, AFTER Last Saint has been saved and AFTER Salvation ends...
they are teaching a doctrine that CONTRADICTS the Biblical Truth revealed in Rev 7:1-3.

(2) And... are they REALLY teaching their 1000 year period is AFTER the Last Saint is saved and AFTER Salvation is finished?
I don't think they are.

The A-Millennial Kingdom of the Great Commission is FOLLOWED
by the Great Tribulation Kingdom (the Revelation Beast or Daniel's Fourth Beast)
Rev 7:1-3 PROVES this reality.

/

5thKingdom · Jan 17, 2023

Over 75 views and not ONE VERSE to refute anything said.

eleos1954 · Jan 17, 2023

5thKingdom said:
The Scripture is clear:

The Revelation Beast (the Great Tribulation) BEGINS after the Last Saint is "sealed" (saved).
Consider the implications of this Biblical fact... First, there is no 1000 period AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed".
And secondly, that means Salvation ENDS before the Revelation Beast (the Great Tribulation) BEGINS.

Rev 7:1-3
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth,
that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east,
having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

The Great Commission of the Church Age continues as the Saints "lived and reigned with Christ" completing the "Body of Christ"
AFTER the Great Commission ENDS at the "End-of-the-Age [Mat 28:18-20] AFTER the Last Saint has been "sealed" (saved)
THEN (and only then) can the Revelation Beast / Great Tribulation BEGIN
Rev 7:1-3 PROVES this reality.

(1) Those teaching there is a 1000 year period AFTER the Great Commission, AFTER Last Saint has been saved and AFTER Salvation ends...
they are teaching a doctrine that CONTRADICTS the Biblical Truth revealed in Rev 7:1-3.

(2) And... are they REALLY teaching their 1000 year period is AFTER the Last Saint is saved and AFTER Salvation is finished?
I don't think they are.

The A-Millennial Kingdom of the Great Commission is FOLLOWED
by the Great Tribulation Kingdom (the Revelation Beast or Daniel's Fourth Beast)
Rev 7:1-3 PROVES this reality.

All will go through the great tribulation .... but it will be cut short. The door to salvation is open until Jesus returns.

The Abomination of Desolation
(Mark 13:14–23; Luke 21:20–24)

15So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

19How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 22If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.

23At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is!’ do not believe it.24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. 25See, I have told you in advance.

5thKingdom · Jan 18, 2023

Almost 200 view and not ONE VERSE of Scripture contradicting the post

5thKingdom · Jan 20, 2023

5thKingdom said:
The Scripture is clear:

The Revelation Beast (the Great Tribulation) BEGINS after the Last Saint is "sealed" (saved).
Consider the implications of this Biblical fact... First, there is no 1000 period AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed".
And secondly, that means Salvation ENDS before the Revelation Beast (the Great Tribulation) BEGINS.

Rev 7:1-3
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth,
that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east,
having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Lost Witness · Jan 20, 2023

5thKingdom said:
The Scripture is clear:

The Revelation Beast (the Great Tribulation) BEGINS after the Last Saint is "sealed" (saved).
Consider the implications of this Biblical fact... First, there is no 1000 period AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed".
And secondly, that means Salvation ENDS before the Revelation Beast (the Great Tribulation) BEGINS.

Rev 7:1-3
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth,
that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east,
having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

The Great Commission of the Church Age continues as the Saints "lived and reigned with Christ" completing the "Body of Christ"
AFTER the Great Commission ENDS at the "End-of-the-Age [Mat 28:18-20] AFTER the Last Saint has been "sealed" (saved)
THEN (and only then) can the Revelation Beast / Great Tribulation BEGIN
Rev 7:1-3 PROVES this reality.

(1) Those teaching there is a 1000 year period AFTER the Great Commission, AFTER Last Saint has been saved and AFTER Salvation ends...
they are teaching a doctrine that CONTRADICTS the Biblical Truth revealed in Rev 7:1-3.

(2) And... are they REALLY teaching their 1000 year period is AFTER the Last Saint is saved and AFTER Salvation is finished?
I don't think they are.

The A-Millennial Kingdom of the Great Commission is FOLLOWED
by the Great Tribulation Kingdom (the Revelation Beast or Daniel's Fourth Beast)
Rev 7:1-3 PROVES this reality.

/

“I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
"why is the above verse a question if it happens before the Great tribulation?"

5thKingdom · Jan 20, 2023

Lost Witness said:
“I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
"why is the above verse a question if it happens before the Great tribulation?"

The verse above doe NOT happen before the Great Tribulation.

The chronology of the end is simple:

AFTER the Great Commission is finished at the "End of the Age" [Mat 28:18-20]
AFTER the Last Saint has been "sealed" (saved) [Rev 7:1-3
THEN the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast begins

The Revelation Beast continues for the duration of the Great Tribulation.
At the END of the Great Tribulation the Lord Returns the resurrection happens and the Last Saints are "changed" without dying.

That is the chronology of the Gospel
Any questions?

Jim

Marilyn C · Jan 20, 2023

5thKingdom said:
The Scripture is clear:

And secondly, that means Salvation ENDS before the Revelation Beast (the Great Tribulation) BEGINS.

`a great multitude that no one could number.......These are the ones who come out of the GREAT TRIBULATION and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.` (Rev. 7: 9 & 14)

Lost Witness · Jan 20, 2023

5thKingdom said:
The verse above doe NOT happen before the Great Tribulation.

The chronology of the end is simple:

AFTER the Great Commission is finished at the "End of the Age" [Mat 28:18-20]
AFTER the Last Saint has been "sealed" (saved) [Rev 7:1-3
THEN the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast begins

The Revelation Beast continues for the duration of the Great Tribulation.
At the END of the Great Tribulation the Lord Returns the resurrection happens and the Last Saints are "changed" without dying.

That is the chronology of the Gospel
Any questions?

Didn't say it did? (I Put "IF" in response to a post you made)
was wondering why it seems you feel the saints are only sealed before the great tribulation and not during as well? :scratch:

Call it being "hopeful' but seems to me that saints are Born as a Direct result OF the Great Tribulation too?
Refer Below,

Marilyn C said:
`a great multitude that no one could number.......These are the ones who come out of the GREAT TRIBULATION and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.` (Rev. 7: 9 & 14)

5thKingdom · Jan 21, 2023

Lost Witness said:
was wondering why it seems you feel the saints are only sealed before the great tribulation and not during as well?

Good question.
The Bible is clear [Rev 7:1-3] the Great Tribulation (Revelation Beast) CAN NOT BEGIN
until the Last Saint is "sealed" (saved)

We now understand the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast is not PART of the Great Commission... BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed".
Instead, it is a SEPARATE and DISTICT (Fourth) "Beast" on earth... existing AFTER the the Last Saint is "sealed"

Rev 7:1-3
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth,
that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east,
having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Lost Witness said:
Call it being "hopeful' but seems to me that saints are Born as a Direct result OF the Great Tribulation too?

That is your "wishful thinking" without ANY Biblical validation.
Rev 7 is very clear the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast CAN NOT BEGIN
until the Last Saint is "sealed" (saved).

After the Last Saint is saved... there are no more Saints born.
That is self-evident.

Jim

5thKingdom · Jan 21, 2023

5thKingdom said:
The Scripture is clear:

And secondly, that means Salvation ENDS before the Revelation Beast (the Great Tribulation) BEGINS.

Marilyn C said:
`a great multitude that no one could number.......These are the ones who come out of the GREAT TRIBULATION and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.` (Rev. 7: 9 & 14)

Marilyn, the fact that you post a verse teaching that a "great multitude" come out of the Great Tribulation
does NOT impact the Biblical teaching I stated above.

The Bible describes a Christian Kingdom during the Great Commission... BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed" (saved)
and a Great Tribulation Kingdom/Revelation Beast... existing AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed".
The Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast CAN NOT BEGIN until the Last Saint is "sealed".

Rev 7:1-3
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth,
that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east,
having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

The FACT that the Last Saint is "sealed" (saved) BEFORE the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast can arise...
has NOTHING to do with how many (a "great multitude") of Saints come OUT of the Great Tribulation.

Jim

DavidPT · Jan 21, 2023

5thKingdom said:
5thKingdom said:
The Scripture is clear:

And secondly, that means Salvation ENDS before the Revelation Beast (the Great Tribulation) BEGINS.

Unless you think that is when the day of the Lord begins, the following proves you wrong.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night ; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Obviously, the fact the DOTL comes as a thief in the night, but in the meantime He is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, it is then the DOTL that ends this longsuffering to us-ward. Meaning it is the DOTL when salvation will no longer be an option. But in the meantime, until the DOTL comes as a thief in the night, salvation is still an option.

5thKingdom · Jan 22, 2023

5thKingdom said:

And secondly, that means Salvation ENDS before the Revelation Beast (the Great Tribulation) BEGINS.

DavidPT said:
Unless you think that is when the day of the Lord begins, the following proves you wrong.

WHAT...

Rev 7:1-3 is very clear.

The Revelation Beast (Great Tribulation) CAN NOT BEGIN until the Last Saint is "sealed" (saved)

That is the END of the story.

DavidPT said:
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night ; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The verse above does NOT talk about the Kingdom BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed"
AND the Kingdom AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed"

So tell me...
WHICH "Kingdom/Beast" is represented in 2 Peter 3:9?

It can only be ONE of the "Kingdoms/Beasts"...
WHICH one is it?

If you are going to offer a "proof text"...
be sure it PROVES something

DavidPT said:
Obviously, the fact the DOTL comes as a thief in the night, but in the meantime He is longsuffering to us-ward,

Again you demonstrate how little you understand.

He is longsuffering to "us" during the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" (the 3rd Beast on earth)
BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed"

That has NOTHING TO DO with the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" (the 4th Beast)
AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed"

When you FAIL to understand the Bible teaches about "Kingdoms" BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed"
and "Kingdoms" AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed" demonstrates that you have no DEPTH of understanding
about the Gospel of the Bible.

Now... am I being too harsh saying the "Gospel of the Bible"...
No way... it is the Gospel of the Bible that teaches these "Kingdoms" on earth
BEFORE and AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed"... that is PART of the Gospel Truth

Jim

oikonomia · Jan 23, 2023

5thKingdom said:
The Scripture is clear:

The Revelation Beast (the Great Tribulation) BEGINS after the Last Saint is "sealed" (saved).

This teaching requires that some jargon be taken for granted as suppositions.

1.) "Last Saints" that has to be taken for granted as something absolutely valid. We know who "Last Saints" refer to.

2.) "Sealed" must mean saved. We have to take for granted up front - "sealed" must mean "saved" AND this is true of some "Last Saints."

5thKingdom said:
Consider the implications of this Biblical fact... First, there is no 1000 period AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed".

You still expect everuone to climb inside your head and know what "Last Saints" is with no dispute, and that they are "sealed" - (saved)
unquestionably to your system.

There is a 1,000 year millennial kingdom mentioned about six times in Revelation 20, as you know.
Do I know no one can be "saved" during that time? No, absolutely, I cannot say I KNOW there no one saved during then - DEPENDING on how we define "saved."

I have seen your long, long explanation to back up certain concepts. The sheer volume of stuff you have to master
in order to get inside your dogmatic view makes it hard to examine it with you. Too many presuppositions are demanded to be accepted as a given.

Last Saints, Sealed (saved), "5th Christian Kingdom" "Final Harvest".
Some of these presuppositions are "jargon" like expressions to which your paradigm just doesnn't gear unless they are accepted.

5thKingdom said:
And secondly, that means Salvation ENDS before the Revelation Beast (the Great Tribulation) BEGINS.

Maybe. Maybe not.

5thKingdom said:
Rev 7:1-3
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth,
that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east,
having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Okay. How do you know that for the 144,000 to be sealed means no more human beings can be "saved" in some manner afterwards?

Now if you just get lost in the forest of your presuppositions, you can always argue circularly that they are because they are because they are. God can "saved" more than in this case He has "sealed" for a specific thing - ie. preservation from harm.

After the vision inserted between the Sixth and Seventh trumpets (Rev. 7;1-17) we see some during the tribulation repenting for fear of God's judgment.

"And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell; . . . and the rest became terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven." (Rev. 11:13)

I don't know that none of these terrified repenters are not saved, in some regard "saved."
Do you KNOW that all of these who repented iat the resurrection of the two witnesses, were "sealed" in chapter 7?
So you KNOW that they will not be "saved" in the sense of passing into the millennial age after the great tribulation?
And if they are transferred from the age of the great tribulation into the age of the saints reigning with Christ over the earth, that they
are not saved during that time?

At any rate, AFTER the sealing of the 144,000 Isrealites some people "became terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven."
I have no assurance that I should illiminate such ones as being "saved" in some regard.

If you do and can show me why without too many pages of pressupositions, I
d consider your evidence. I think you are going to appeal to the book of Daniel.

5thKingdom said:
The Great Commission of the Church Age continues as the Saints "lived and reigned with Christ" completing the "Body of Christ"
AFTER the Great Commission ENDS at the "End-of-the-Age [Mat 28:18-20] AFTER the Last Saint has been "sealed" (saved)
THEN (and only then) can the Revelation Beast / Great Tribulation BEGIN
Rev 7:1-3 PROVES this reality.

Maybe I can see the "Great Commission" having run its course by the time Matt.28:18-20 consummates the age.
But the priests TEACH the nations during the subsequent1,000 years.
How do I know no one they teach and no one the sons of God reign over are "saved" in then.

Would they be teaching them IN VAIN?
Would God have them being TAUGHT only that they perish forever having learned NOTHING?

They are restored to the stage Adam was in before he ate if the forbidden tree.
This is the kingdom initially designed for the created man "from the foundation of the world."

"Then the King shall say to those on His right hand, Come,you who are blessed of My Father,
inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." (Matt. 25;34)

These are the "sheep" people of the nations who come out of the great tribulation to be restored
to the state of Adam that he enjoyed "from the foundation of the world."
They differ from the sons of God who have been chosen "BEFORE the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4)

"According as He chose is in Him BEFORE the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blemish before
Him in love, having predestinated us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will."(vs4,5)

The former are SAVED to be the pristine state of the created man had "FROM the foundation of the world".
The latter who reign over them, shepherd them, teach them, and heal them were predestinated "BEFORE the foundation of the world."

The former do not have indwelling them the divine life of God, making them members of the Body of Christ, at least apparently not then.
But they are "saved" in the sense of inheriting the "very good" earth and "very good" natural human life which Adam was created with from the foundation of the world in Genesis.

The sons of God are to reign forever and ever. It doesn't make good sense to think they will reign over each other.
So there have to be some "saved" people (in some sense) for them to reign over in the millennium and in eternity.

5thKingdom said:
(1) Those teaching there is a 1000 year period AFTER the Great Commission, AFTER Last Saint has been saved and AFTER Salvation ends...
they are teaching a doctrine that CONTRADICTS the Biblical Truth revealed in Rev 7:1-3.

No, they are not taking for granted your supposition of
"Last Saints" which is germane to your dogma.
And they are not necessarily going along with your definition of "sealed" as only being saved according to how "sealed" is used in the NT.

And AFTER the sealing of the 144,000 just at the beginning of the Great Tribulation we see some who were terrified and gave glory to
God DURING the great tribulation. I think, such who gave glory to God will be saved in some sense, even if not members of Christ's mystical Body.

This contradicts your teaching. But it does not contradict the Bible.

5thKingdom said:
(2) And... are they REALLY teaching their 1000 year period is AFTER the Last Saint is saved and AFTER Salvation is finished?
I don't think they are.

That is a slightly less dogmatic stance, I think.
At least you give room for not being absolutely sure.

Do you believe that there are some "unknowns" about all that God will do in the future?
I mean, in spite of the fact that we are told mcu, much not easy to always understand.
I think there are still some "unknowns" about His ways.

Job 26:14 speaks truly saying "Indeed, these are but the fringes [outskirts] of His ways;
And how small a whisper do we hear of HIm!
But as for the thundering of His mightiness, who can comprehend it?"

Though His eternal purpsose has been revealed, there are still those things which belong to Him.
We do not know them all.

"The things that are hidden belong to Jehovah our God; but the things that are revealed, to us and our childrenforever, that we may do all the words of this law." (Deutoronoomy 29:29)

We have to aubmit to what He has revealed to us and respond in obedience.
I think there are still things which are His, yet not revealed to us.
As of yet they beloeng to God.

We do know that to Him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus forever and ever. (Eph.3:21)
"To Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus unto all the generations forever and ever. Amen."

5thKingdom said:
The A-Millennial Kingdom of the Great Commission is FOLLOWED
by the Great Tribulation Kingdom (the Revelation Beast or Daniel's Fourth Beast)
Rev 7:1-3 PROVES this reality.

Here again, one has to accept a jargon like pronouncement - "The A-Millennial Kingdom of the Great Commission"
Another phrase whose jargan we have to accept is "Great Tribulation kingdom."

I saw you before boasting that your view is unassailable. But I see much circular reasoning which requires Jargan acceptance,
and voluminous layers of reading. I know everything is not simple. But concise reasons why your view can be questioned, I think, some have not been well refuted.

And the book of Daniel is not the ONLY word on eschatology, though it is an important word on last things.

oikonomia · Jan 23, 2023

5thKingdom said:
Over 75 views and not ONE VERSE to refute anything said.

Stop strutting around like you
are infallible.

You're mistaking yourself for the person you'd like to be.

oikonomia · Jan 23, 2023

5thKingdom said:
He is longsuffering to "us" during the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" (the 3rd Beast on earth)
BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed"

What is your basis for saying 1rst, Chritian Kingdom, 2nd Christian Kingdom, Third Christian Kingdom, etc. etc. ?

Can you explain this without too long a discussion which requires many other presuppositional acceptances?
If you can't then say so. IE. "You have to understand volumes of other things to just get started."

It takes one to know one. So I know.
Why is the third Beast seen by Daniel, a kingdom of the saints?

If it were truly of the saints it would not be a monsterous beast.
The same with the fourth beast.

5thKingdom said:
That has NOTHING TO DO with the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" (the 4th Beast)
AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed"

This is jargon your system is quite used to. (4th Great Tribulation Kingdom of Heaven
(the 4th Beast)

This is jargon one has to assume is valid.

5thKingdom said:
When you FAIL to understand the Bible teaches about "Kingdoms" BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed"
and "Kingdoms" AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed" demonstrates that you have no DEPTH of understanding
about the Gospel of the Bible.

Do you fail to understand that there are kingdoms of the enemies of God, and "kingdom of the world" which must BECOME the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ?

I don't undetstand your equating those beastly monsters of Daniel's vision as kingdoms of the saints, Last or otherwise.

5thKingdom · Jan 23, 2023

oikonomia said:
Stop strutting around like you
are infallible.

You're mistaking yourself for the person you'd like to be.

Fact are facts.
A doctrine is presented and not ONE VERSE is found contradicting that doctrine
That is just a fact.

Listen...
the Bible PROMISES the Last Saints "shall understand" (and preach) Biblical mysteries at the "Time-of-the-End"
Daniel 12:4 and 12:8-10 PROVES this fact

Deal with the facts
instead of your feelings

/

5thKingdom · Jan 23, 2023

oikonomia said:
What is your basis for saying 1rst, Chritian Kingdom, 2nd Christian Kingdom, Third Christian Kingdom, etc. etc. ?

Can you explain this without too long a discussion which requires many other presuppositional acceptances?
If you can't then say so. IE. "You have to understand volumes of other things to just get started."

How about recorded history (reality)... does that work for you?
You cannot REFUTE the doctrine with Scripture.
Will reality satisfy you?

oikonomia said:
Why is the third Beast seen by Daniel, a kingdom of the saints?

If it were truly of the saints it would not be a monsterous beast.
The same with the fourth beast.

Yes, the FIRST Beast was a Kingdom of (Pre-Flood) Saints
and the SECOND Beast was a Kingdom of (Jewish) Saints
and the THIRD Beast was a Kingdom of (Christian) Saints
and the FOURTH Beast was a Kingdom of (Great Tribulation) Saints.

You think the Christian Beast was not "monsterous" when it CHANGED THE WORLD?
Are you kidding me?

oikonomia said:
This is jargon your system is quite used to. (4th Great Tribulation Kingdom of Heaven
(the 4th Beast)

This is jargon one has to assume is valid.

Assume?
Tell me, WHAT "Kingdom/Beast" comes AFTER the Great Commission?

The fact that you do not understand what the Gospel teaches about these matters
does not make anything into "jargon"...

oikonomia said:
Do you fail to understand that there are kingdoms of the enemies of God, and "kingdom of the world" which must BECOME the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ?

I understand what the Four Beasts of Daniel represent.
Your comment above is off point

oikonomia said:
I don't undetstand your equating those beastly monsters of Daniel's vision as kingdoms of the saints, Last or otherwise.

I know you do not understand.

/

5thKingdom · Jan 23, 2023

5thKingdom said:
The Scripture is clear:

The Revelation Beast (the Great Tribulation) BEGINS after the Last Saint is "sealed" (saved).

oikonomia said:
This teaching requires that some jargon be taken for granted as suppositions.

1.) "Last Saints" that has to be taken for granted as something absolutely valid. We know who "Last Saints" refer to.

2.) "Sealed" must mean saved. We have to take for granted up front - "sealed" must mean "saved" AND this is true of some "Last Saints."

First... the Bible is clear, there are Last Saints living when the Lord Returns [1 Co 15:50-53]

Secondly.... I will leave it up to you to determine WHAT "sealed" represents... but you NOT knowing proves nothing.
Did you really imagine that the Great Commission (saving "His Sheep") would not come to an END? Really?

Rev 7:1-3
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth,
that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east,
having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

/

5thKingdom · Jan 23, 2023

oikonomia said:
You still expect everuone to climb inside your head and know what "Last Saints" is with no dispute, and that they are "sealed" - (saved)
unquestionably to your system.

I will not "dispute" about there being Last Saints.
If you cannot understand this reality do not pretend it's because you need to climb into my head.
Rather... you need to determine WHAT the Gospel teaches about the Last Saints.
The Bible teaches of Last Saints AFTER the Great Commission.
I am sorry that is "news" to you.

/

When does the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast BEGIN?

Newbie

Newbie

God is Love

Newbie

Newbie

Ezekiel 3:3 ("Change")

Newbie

Pre-tribulation.

Ezekiel 3:3 ("Change")

Newbie

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

Similar threads