Why are female clergy cheering for a bishop who doesn’t believe in female priests?

Paidiske

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archer75

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I apologize for butting in here, but I read the article and found it "interesting. This sounds awful.

Did I understand right? There are bishops who don't believe that women can be priests...who are in charge of women who are priests? How does this function? I understand that the article focuses on the idea that it is an "open wound," and I believe that without experiencing it myself. This sounds incoherent. How can this be.
 
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Paidiske

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Yep. You understand right. It's not just a problem in England, either.

How can this be? Because people who don't agree with the ordination of women still exist - and some of them rise to high positions - in churches which ordain women. And this causes issues on both sides of the equation.

From my point of view, we have been so determined to be fair to people who have struggled with this change, so willing to bend over backwards to give them concessions, that we have tied the church in knots meeting their demands. For example, in England, parishes which object to the ordination of women can request "alternative oversight" if their bishop ordains women (or is a woman). But, as the article notes, women who are priests can't request "alternative oversight" if their bishop doesn't agree with the ordination of women!

I think we should have, at some point, drawn a line and said, sorry, we're doing this, and if you don't like it you can either keep that to yourself, or there's the door. But instead we have tried to have our cake and eat it too, and it doesn't work. And we haven't even held to the lines we have said we would have; for example, in the diocese I was ordained in, every candidate is asked if they support the ordination of women. And if they don't, they're not supposed to go forward in that diocese. But they still do! And it's often the women in orders who end up paying the cost.
 
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PloverWing

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How are people chosen to be bishops in the Church of England? Here in the US, they're elected by representatives of the various congregations in the diocese. (We're about to elect a new bishop of my diocese, two weeks from now, and I'm right in the middle of deciding which candidate to vote for.) TEC has made provision for existing bishops who opposed the ordination of women, but it's hard to imagine a new bishop being elected in 2023 who held that position.

One article I read spoke of an announcement from 10 Downing Street. Does the civil government choose the bishops in the UK?
 
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Paidiske

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To be honest, I'm not sure of how the process works in England. I know the prime minister makes a recommendation to the monarch (I nearly said the queen; my brain hasn't kept pace with recent events!) who officially makes the decision, but I don't know what lies behind names going to the prime minister.

Oh, look, Wikipedia has the answer to everything: Appointment of Church of England bishops - Wikipedia

Edited to add: you say it's hard to imagine a new bishop in 2023 in TEC not supporting the ordination of women. But don't forget that TEC has been ordaining women for 18 years longer than the C of E has.
 
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IceJad

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I don't see an issue here actually. Every clergy be it men or women have their own perspective on certain theological issue. Why should there be a surprise that there are opposing camps in women supports? And why is it an open wound? Are dissenting view unacceptable?

Personally I have no issue with women pastors or priests. My church has 2 women pastors. My aim in life is not to look at the gender of my pastors, it is to follow the Commandments of the Lord, spread the Great Commission and to accept the Lord's Salvation.
 
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archer75

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Yep. You understand right. It's not just a problem in England, either.

How can this be? Because people who don't agree with the ordination of women still exist - and some of them rise to high positions - in churches which ordain women. And this causes issues on both sides of the equation.

From my point of view, we have been so determined to be fair to people who have struggled with this change, so willing to bend over backwards to give them concessions, that we have tied the church in knots meeting their demands. For example, in England, parishes which object to the ordination of women can request "alternative oversight" if their bishop ordains women (or is a woman). But, as the article notes, women who are priests can't request "alternative oversight" if their bishop doesn't agree with the ordination of women!

I think we should have, at some point, drawn a line and said, sorry, we're doing this, and if you don't like it you can either keep that to yourself, or there's the door. But instead we have tried to have our cake and eat it too, and it doesn't work. And we haven't even held to the lines we have said we would have; for example, in the diocese I was ordained in, every candidate is asked if they support the ordination of women. And if they don't, they're not supposed to go forward in that diocese. But they still do! And it's often the women in orders who end up paying the cost.
Wow.

I can dimly imagine how this could come about through a confluence of factors, including good intentions.

But I cannot imagine

a) how a woman ordained to the presbyterate (or episcopate!) is supposed to serve under such conditions

or

b) why on earth would one want to be ordained to the episcopate in a church that does something you don't believe to be possible in a Christian context? How would you expect to...authorize (or however you do it—I am assuming that in some way the authority to perform the central act of Christian worship is delegated from the bishop?) the consecration of the elements by a person you...don't believe can do so??

I don't even understand how this works from week to week, let alone for many years.

Wow, I saw a female presbyter (an actress, I suppose) on Doctor Who many years ago and thought "Huh, that must be totally unremarkable in an Anglican context." Guess the magic of television fooled me.

Are there more articles about this? By other priests? By bishops?
 
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Paidiske

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And why is it an open wound? Are dissenting view unacceptable?
Churches rely very strongly on the strength of relationships in order to function. When those relationships are impaired, it can become very difficult.

When my colleagues, very openly and to my face, make it clear that they don't believe I should hold the position I do, (and this happens to me and to all women clergy, at least where I am), how can I go to them for support, for care, for assistance, when I need it? How can I trust them not to undermine me? And how it is that I am expected to do all those things for them, without question, but their poor behaviour is tolerated?

Are there more articles about this? By other priests? By bishops?
I'm sure there are, although I shared this one because I think it was clearer than many in naming some of the problems. I'll have to go and dig around with google and see what I can find.

If anyone's up for a longer read, there's a book - not a new book, now, it was published some years ago, so it might be hard to find - called "Jobs For The Boys? Women Who Became Priests," which tells the stories of a dozen or so women who had become priests and were serving in very different contexts in the C of E; and that book does a very good job of highlighting some of the ways this impacts real people.

Incidentally, on a side note, this is part of why I'm not keen to force churches to take on the ordination of women before they're ready. (Sometimes people argue with me that governments should require churches not to discriminate against women, or the like). Because if that were to happen, and churches actually went along with it, the lived experience in that situation would be even more of an "open wound" than it is when the church willingly chooses it.
 
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Paidiske

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@archer75 Here are some articles which explore some of this, although not so directly the question of priest-bishop relationships, which is a fairly niche issue.



 
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Paidiske - Wow, I never thought there would be those types of issues within churches that ordain women, so thank you for the links. We recently started attending a church that has several women pastors, including the worship pastor which is one of my areas of ministry. It's the first time we've been with a church that ordains women, so I was blithely going along like they don't face any specific challenges. This will help me be more aware.
 
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PloverWing

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Why didn't the apostles appoint a single female bishop?
Did the apostles appoint bishops at all? We see some references to church leaders with various titles in the NT, but I don't know if the official threefold ministry of bishops, priests, and deacons as we know it dates back quite as far as the apostles.

If you just mean church leaders in general, then we have the examples of Junia and the other female church leaders mentioned in Romans 16.

Once we get a couple of centuries into the life of the church, then the patriarchy of the surrounding culture has a significant influence.
 
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archer75

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How does it work to have a bishop overseeing priests if he doesn't believe some of them are priests?

With the EO, all authority of a priest comes from the bishop. It is really the bishop's authority, delegated to the priest. So to me this makes zero sense, but maybe you don't do things that way?

How can the bishop authorize female priests to...serve the Liturgy if he doesn't believe they can? What am I missing?
 
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PloverWing

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With the EO, all authority of a priest comes from the bishop. It is really the bishop's authority, delegated to the priest. So to me this makes zero sense, but maybe you don't do things that way?

I don't think the authority of priests derives from the bishops in this way in the Anglican tradition. Of course bishops have an important role -- they ordain, they provide leadership and pastoral care to the diocese, they step in if things go badly in a parish, and their line of succession gives us an anchor to history. But I think that priests, once ordained, have an authority of their own that isn't just the agency of the bishop. But Paidiske can give a more complete (and accurate! :) ) answer.
 
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archer75

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I don't think the authority of priests derives from the bishops in this way in the Anglican tradition. Of course bishops have an important role -- they ordain, they provide leadership and pastoral care to the diocese, they step in if things go badly in a parish, and their line of succession gives us an anchor to history. But I think that priests, once ordained, have an authority of their own that isn't just the agency of the bishop. But Paidiske can give a more complete (and accurate! :) ) answer.
Thank you. I am very interested in hearing more about this, and honestly, I'm not sure how to google it.
 
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Paidiske

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With the EO, all authority of a priest comes from the bishop. It is really the bishop's authority, delegated to the priest. So to me this makes zero sense, but maybe you don't do things that way?

How can the bishop authorize female priests to...serve the Liturgy if he doesn't believe they can? What am I missing?
This might be one area where google is more likely to get you lost than to offer clarity, I suspect.

You are correct that all ministry derives from the bishop's authority. I do what I do as an extension, as it were, of the bishop's role (since he can't be everywhere at once). I hold my licence from the bishop, and he can revoke it at his pleasure (although in reality a licence is seldom revoked without very strong reason). And I have taken an oath to obey him "in all things lawful and honest." (And let me tell you, some days I have reason to ponder the limits of what that means!)

That said, there is also a sense in which, once licensed, I am understood to have a particular role within my parish which it is my place to fulfill (and which others are not supposed to interfere with), which is probably what @PloverWing is reflecting. But note that a clergyperson who holds no licence to minister, or permission to officiate, from a bishop, has no authority to exercise any public ministry in the church at all.

So... how can a bishop authorise or license women to ministries that bishop doesn't believe they should hold?

There are, I think, several things in play. One is that even a bishop is not a law unto himself (I feel justified in just using masculine pronouns here). He takes an oath to be bound by the canon law of the diocese and the province etc. etc. So even if his personal opinion is not in favour, if the framework of canon law allows for women clergy, he cannot just ignore or overturn that on personal whim. Even a bishop exercises his ministry as a function of the church, and not independently from the rest of the church's life. (And to be honest, his objection cannot be that absolute, because if it were he wouldn't have got to that point; he'd have converted to some other church which doesn't ordain women).

There's also some nuance here in that there are two quite different lines of objection to women in ministry; one is an ontological, women can't validly celebrate the sacraments, kind of argument; the other is an argument that women are not meant to hold particular types of authority or leadership role. The latter allows for more scope for women to be, say, assistant priests in a parish, or in chaplaincy roles, or the like; and I think it is fair to say is probably the more common line of objection for someone who is still an Anglican bishop.

Also, there is a certain amount of inertia. Say a bishop comes into a diocese where, perhaps, one third of the active clergy are women. He cannot sack them all without initiating a crisis. So regardless of his personal opinion, he will need to work with those women, at least for the time being.

What we tend to see is that when a bishop who is not in favour comes to a diocese which ordains women, things keep going as they were... but new women are not ordained, or encouraged to seek ordination. When parishes need new priests, women aren't appointed. And over a period of time, the demographics of the clergy shift, so that that diocese which had perhaps one third of their active clergy as women, might be down to a much smaller proportion by the time the bishop leaves. And so on. That is to say, the bishop is likely to have influenced things to the degree that lies within his discretion, without provoking conflict by attempting to revise canon law (or massive staffing crises by sacking all the women).

It is, perhaps, another example of the exquisitely Anglican art of working within a diverse church in which we must all, from time to time, make compromises; the art of working within what is possible, rather than insisting on an ideal which is currently unobtainable. And probably far from the only issue on which a bishop will need to take that kind of approach!

I'm not sure that I've actually answered your question, so much as attempted to sketch the situation, as best I can see it. But perhaps it gives a feel for how quite a different church culture might approach such a question?
 
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PloverWing

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Thanks for the clarification, @Paidiske . From my perspective as a lay person, the bishop's role looks largely ceremonial. They visit the parish once a year (or once per three years - it seems to vary) and lead prayers at various diocesan events, and otherwise are quite distant from my life as a Christian. But there's likely much that goes on behind the scenes that I would see more clearly if I were a priest or deacon.
 
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Paidiske

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It differs a lot depending on things like the size and culture of the diocese and the personality of the bishop. Some are very involved, some are much more remote.

But this kind of gets back around to that "open wound" the article in the OP was talking about. I can honestly say that all the bishops I've worked for/with, have at least been responsive when I've raised issues, and tried to be helpful. If I had a bishop who was avoidant of his women clergy, or who was lukewarm about being helpful if he thought those women clergy were the problem... that could become very difficult!
 
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archer75

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Thank you, @Paidiske. You certainly did answer my question. Extremely clear and informative. Particularly the bit about the two kinds of objections.

I was completely flabbergasted until I understood at least that much. It still sounds like a very difficult and painful situation, but not literally impossible as I thought at first.

Edit: and the bit about the Anglican art of compromises. Remarkable.
 
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