Why are female clergy cheering for a bishop who doesn’t believe in female priests?

[ValeriyK2022]

Why didn't Jesus Christ appoint any woman as an apostle? Why didn't the apostles appoint any women as priests? Maybe this is not pleasing to God?

 

[Paidiske]

Perhaps the question is, why do we not recognise Junia the apostle, Phoebe the deacon, Lydia, Nympha, Chloe and others who presided over worship in their homes as elders? Maybe we have distorted our own history?

 

[ValeriyK2022]

Perhaps the question is, why do we not recognise Junia the apostle, Phoebe the deacon, Lydia, Nympha, Chloe and others who presided over worship in their homes as elders? Maybe we have distorted our own history?

In the Orthodox tradition (which is the oldest, dating back to the time of the apostles), the usual collective prayer, which can be performed by both women and children, is separated from the liturgy, which can only be performed by a priest (more precisely, the people led by a priest). Since apostolic times, men have been baptizing, men have ordained bishops and priests, men have been leaders of communities, and only men have attended the apostolic council. “Women[f] should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. " (1 Corinthians 14:34).

Deacon Phoebe, Lydia, Nymph, Chloe and others prayed in women's society, but still came to the apostles, bishops and priests (who were men) to partake of the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. This is now done in women's Orthodox monasteries.

Moreover, not all Orthodox men can do this, but only those ordained by bishops. Bishops can only be ordained by other bishops, and so on until apostolic times. The first bishops were ordained by apostles (not women).

 

[Paidiske]

Well, I'd dispute your account of the history.

More to the point, I'd remind you that this is the Egalitarian forum; and not the place to advocate for the silence of women or our absence from leadership.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

I don't understand what is the Egalitarian forum.

My logic is this: God is one, so the truth is one. If Christians have a hundred truths, then 99 are wrong and only 1 out of 100 teaches what God teaches us.

 

[Paidiske]

This forum is set up specifically to be a place where Christians who have an egalitarian view can share and discuss, without having to defend ourselves or our views to others who don't share them.
The statement of purpose of this forum includes:

"Some things about Egalitarians include:

• Belief that the Bible teaches the full equality of men and women in Creation and in Redemption
• Belief that both woman and man were created for full and equal partnership.
• Belief that man and woman were co-participants in the Fall
• Belief that husbands and wives are joint heirs together of the grace of life and that they are bound together in a relationship of mutual submission and responsibility
• Belief that both mothers and fathers are to exercise leadership in the nurture, training, discipline and teaching of their children

Some specific guidelines for this forum include:
1. This is a safehouse forum for Egalitarian Christians. Criticizing or mocking members that hold that view is not allowed.
2. This forum is intended to be informational and not for debate. There may be some disagreements, but these should be handled with grace towards one another rather than attacking one another.
3. Abortion cannot be promoted on Christian Forums.
4. Members of this forum may come from all denominations, and may hold a range of positions on the ordination of women as leaders, pastors, or sacramental ministers within the Church. These differing views may be explored within this forum, but that women are called to share in the work of the church alongside their brothers may not be debated. Ordained women and their ministries are to be respected in this forum.

...In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against its theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic."

 

[ValeriyK2022]

If so, then this group does not suit me. Goodbye, see you at the Orthodox forum.

 

[RamiC]

Five Guiding Principles - from WATCH (Women And the Church) to quote it "They were not intended to be rules, but were created to enable conversation between different individuals and groups to continue, rather than to lay down a specific interpretation. WATCH believes it is important for the health of the whole of the Church of England to acknowledge and name the contradictions which play out in some of these interpretations, and the impact these can have on church members, not least ordained women." Everything WATCH produce should be in line with egalitarian perspectives.

Leaflet on the same Five Guiding Principles - but this one is from the other side of the argument, hence I will not quote it in the Egalitarian area.

I am posting both of these purely to provide a contribution towards answering the question in the OP, "Why are female clergy cheering for a bishop who does not believe in female priets?" - If I can just change the headline (which causes more confusion because it is a newspaper headline.) to "Is the Church of England completely confused and in a state of disuntiy over the ordination of women? The answer is basically yes, because the Church of England never actually reached a point of clear agreement about having female clergy, we instead produce Five Guiding Principles which could be read and interpreted by people on opposing sides about the matter, with each side interpreting the Guiding Principles as promising support for them!

 

[stevevw]

Did the apostles appoint bishops at all? We see some references to church leaders with various titles in the NT, but I don't know if the official threefold ministry of bishops, priests, and deacons as we know it dates back quite as far as the apostles.

If you just mean church leaders in general, then we have the examples of Junia and the other female church leaders mentioned in Romans 16.

Once we get a couple of centuries into the life of the church, then the patriarchy of the surrounding culture has a significant influence.

The surrounding Jewish and Christian culture was patriarchal before Christ and after Christ and always has been. It has been that way in the church and western society since Christ.

Clement was bishop of Rome after Peter in the first century. He declared that women could not be priests or bishops and said this is what the disciples taught.

We have historical and biblical records of the 70 disciples chosen by the disciples and they are all men. They were mostly the first bishops of the new churches that were established in the first century. They in turn passed on to men who led the church throughout history. All the church fathers like

For example
Barnabas, bishop of Milan, Mark, cousin to Barnabas, bishop of Apollonia, Silas, bishop of Corinth who accompanied Paul on missions, Silvanus, bishop of Thessalonica and Crisces (Crescens), bishop of Carchedon in Galatia were companions of Paul who were sent out by Jesus in Luke 10, Aristobulus, bishop of Britain is mentioned in Luke 10. Andronicus, bishop of Pannonia, Amplias, bishop of Odessus, Phygellus, bishop of Ephesus, and Epænetus, bishop of Carthage are all mentioned by Paul.

Narcissus, bishop of Athens was ordained by the apostle Phillip, Agabus the prophet from Syria is mentioned in Acts as a prophet and traditionally known as one of the 70 disciples, Asyncritus, bishop of Hyrcania is regarded as a saint and mentioned by Paul, Phlegon, bishop of Marathon is mentioned in Romans, Linus, bishop of Rome followed after Peter and was with Paul in Rome.

Barnabas, bishop of Heraclea, Cleopas, bishop of Jerusalem, Timon, bishop of Bostra, Prochorus, bishop of Nicomedia, who also was the first that departed, 11 believing together with his daughters, Parmenas, bishop of Soli, Nicolaus, bishop of Samaria, Urban, bishop of Macedonia, Stachys, bishop of Byzantium. Phygellus, bishop of Ephesus. He was of the party also of Simon, Herodion, bishop of Tarsus, Lucius, bishop of Laodicea in Syria, Philemon, bishop of Gaza, Carpus, bishop of Berytus in Thrace and Evodus, bishop of Antioch.

Or Mark and Luke the evangelists who wrote the gospels, the 7 deacons of Jerusalem mentioned in the bible as leaders in Jerusalem and sent out by Jesus which included Philip, who baptized the Ethiopian eunuch, Prochorus, bishop of Nicomedia, and Timon, bishop of Bostra, and Parmenas, bishop of Soli. Then you have others like Stephen, the first martyr and Nicanor who was martyred with Stephen for preaching the gospel.

Also Thaddeus, who conveyed the epistle to Augarus, Ananias, who baptized Paul, and was bishop of Damascus, Trophimus, who was martyred along with Paul. Also Olympus, Rhodion and Trophimus, who were all martyred with Paul in Rome. People think only Peter and Paul were martryed together but there were several. Of course there is Christs brother James and Matthias, who supplied the vacant place in the number of the twelve apostles.

The rest are named and are all men.

Silas - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Seventy Disciples | The Seventy Apostles of Jesus Christ

The Seventy Disciples or Seventy Apostles where appointed by Jesus Christ and sent out in pairs on a specific mission. A complete list of their names.

www.christian-pilgrimage-journeys.com

Clement of Rome who was bishop of Rome after Paul taught that the apostles chose only men to succeed them in the1st century. Concerning the "constant practice of the Church", in antiquity the Church Fathers Irenaeus,Tertullian, Hippolytus, Epiphanius, John Chrysostom,and Augustine all wrote that the priestly ordination of women was impossible. As well as all the official church Councils and Declarations on this matter like the First Council of Nicaea (325 CE) the Council of Laodicea, the Council of Chalcedon (451 CE) on this matter.

Ordination of women and the Catholic Church - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[RamiC]

The surrounding Jewish and Christian culture was patriarchal before Christ and after Christ and always has been. It has been that way in the church and western society since Christ.

Clement was bishop of Rome after Peter in the first century. He declared that women could not be priests or bishops and said this is what the disciples taught.

We have historical and biblical records of the 70 disciples chosen by the disciples and they are all men. They were mostly the first bishops of the new churches that were established in the first century. They in turn passed on to men who led the church throughout history. All the church fathers like

For example
Barnabas, bishop of Milan, Mark, cousin to Barnabas, bishop of Apollonia, Silas, bishop of Corinth who accompanied Paul on missions, Silvanus, bishop of Thessalonica and Crisces (Crescens), bishop of Carchedon in Galatia were companions of Paul who were sent out by Jesus in Luke 10, Aristobulus, bishop of Britain is mentioned in Luke 10. Andronicus, bishop of Pannonia, Amplias, bishop of Odessus, Phygellus, bishop of Ephesus, and Epænetus, bishop of Carthage are all mentioned by Paul.

Narcissus, bishop of Athens was ordained by the apostle Phillip, Agabus the prophet from Syria is mentioned in Acts as a prophet and traditionally known as one of the 70 disciples, Asyncritus, bishop of Hyrcania is regarded as a saint and mentioned by Paul, Phlegon, bishop of Marathon is mentioned in Romans, Linus, bishop of Rome followed after Peter and was with Paul in Rome.

Barnabas, bishop of Heraclea, Cleopas, bishop of Jerusalem, Timon, bishop of Bostra, Prochorus, bishop of Nicomedia, who also was the first that departed, 11 believing together with his daughters, Parmenas, bishop of Soli, Nicolaus, bishop of Samaria, Urban, bishop of Macedonia, Stachys, bishop of Byzantium. Phygellus, bishop of Ephesus. He was of the party also of Simon, Herodion, bishop of Tarsus, Lucius, bishop of Laodicea in Syria, Philemon, bishop of Gaza, Carpus, bishop of Berytus in Thrace and Evodus, bishop of Antioch.

Or Mark and Luke the evangelists who wrote the gospels, the 7 deacons of Jerusalem mentioned in the bible as leaders in Jerusalem and sent out by Jesus which included Philip, who baptized the Ethiopian eunuch, Prochorus, bishop of Nicomedia, and Timon, bishop of Bostra, and Parmenas, bishop of Soli. Then you have others like Stephen, the first martyr and Nicanor who was martyred with Stephen for preaching the gospel.

Also Thaddeus, who conveyed the epistle to Augarus, Ananias, who baptized Paul, and was bishop of Damascus, Trophimus, who was martyred along with Paul. Also Olympus, Rhodion and Trophimus, who were all martyred with Paul in Rome. People think only Peter and Paul were martryed together but there were several. Of course there is Christs brother James and Matthias, who supplied the vacant place in the number of the twelve apostles.

The rest are named and are all men.

Silas - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Seventy Disciples | The Seventy Apostles of Jesus Christ

The Seventy Disciples or Seventy Apostles where appointed by Jesus Christ and sent out in pairs on a specific mission. A complete list of their names.

www.christian-pilgrimage-journeys.com

Clement of Rome who was bishop of Rome after Paul taught that the apostles chose only men to succeed them in the1st century. Concerning the "constant practice of the Church", in antiquity the Church Fathers Irenaeus,Tertullian, Hippolytus, Epiphanius, John Chrysostom,and Augustine all wrote that the priestly ordination of women was impossible. As well as all the official church Councils and Declarations on this matter like the First Council of Nicaea (325 CE) the Council of Laodicea, the Council of Chalcedon (451 CE) on this matter.

Ordination of women and the Catholic Church - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Egalitarian Christians forum is a forum for discussion and fellowship for members who believe in Bibllcal equality between men and women. Some things about Egalitarians include:

• Belief that the Bible teaches the full equality of men and women in Creation and in Redemption
• Belief that both woman and man were created for full and equal partnership.
• Belief that man and woman were co-participants in the Fall
• Belief that husbands and wives are joint heirs together of the grace of life and that they are bound together in a relationship of mutual submission and responsibility
• Belief that both mothers and fathers are to exercise leadership in the nurture, training, discipline and teaching of their children

Some specific guidelines for this forum include:
1. This is a safehouse forum for Egalitarian Christians. Criticizing or mocking members that hold that view is not allowed.
2. This forum is intended to be informational and not for debate. There may be some disagreements, but these should be handled with grace towards one another rather than attacking one another..

Statement of Purpose - Egalitarian Christians Statement of Purpose

 

[stevevw]

The Egalitarian Christians forum is a forum for discussion and fellowship for members who believe in Bibllcal equality between men and women. Some things about Egalitarians include:

• Belief that the Bible teaches the full equality of men and women in Creation and in Redemption
• Belief that both woman and man were created for full and equal partnership.
• Belief that man and woman were co-participants in the Fall
• Belief that husbands and wives are joint heirs together of the grace of life and that they are bound together in a relationship of mutual submission and responsibility
• Belief that both mothers and fathers are to exercise leadership in the nurture, training, discipline and teaching of their children

Some specific guidelines for this forum include:
1. This is a safehouse forum for Egalitarian Christians. Criticizing or mocking members that hold that view is not allowed.
2. This forum is intended to be informational and not for debate. There may be some disagreements, but these should be handled with grace towards one another rather than attacking one another..

Statement of Purpose - Egalitarian Christians Statement of Purpose

How is citing simple data to a question asked a breah of form rules. I mentioned no personal commentry or criticism of the egalitarian view. Just a simply reply to a question about who took over from the diciples as leaders of the church and what the belief was at that time. Are you saying that just citing data is a breach.

I am interested in where the line is on this. The thread is framed in a way that invites debate on the pros and cons of egalitarian views as opposed to traditional beliefs. How does one circumvent this without stepping into risky ground. It more or less makes any critical discussion mute.

Remembering that any debate should not be directed towards individuals but as a whole movement or worldview difference. I think theres a difference and we should be able to discuss the pros and cons of ideologies like egalitarianism as a philosophy or political ideology which is not personal about anyones particular belief which they have a right to.

People on this forum criticise other religions like Islam. Heck they even criticise Chjristianity and denominations like the Catholics. This is not personal and saying Muslims or Catholics are bad. But is directed at a philosophy for which we should be able to be critical about. Or at least apply critical thinking to.

But it doesn't matter as I was not intending to get involved. I have already been there and done that and there was no issues with the forum rules. So I have had my say on this matter in other threads and I know these never get resolved because people have their own beliefs and you can't change a persons belief in a thread.

I just wanted to give some data because I had already done the hard work of researching the topic on the question asked about who were the leaders in the early church and how we have always had a patriarchy in the church. After someone said this was a relatively modern phenomena.

 

[Paidiske]

The thread is framed in a way that invites debate on the pros and cons of egalitarian views as opposed to traditional beliefs.

No, that is not what this thread is for. That is why it is in the Egalitarian forum, where such debate is not allowed. If you want to debate those ideas, there are plenty of forums for that; this forum is intended to be a haven from that debate.

This thread is intended to raise awareness and discussion of ongoing issues within churches which, despite making the decision to ordain women, still often treat women quite poorly when they do take up those roles.

 

[RileyG]

Note: this is in the Egalitarian forum.

An interesting piece coming out of the Church of England, but the problems it describes are by no means confined to that context.

Why are female clergy cheering for a bishop who doesn’t believe in female priests? | Martine Oborne

The "open wound" is real, and it's refreshing to see it being written about so honestly.

[posting in fellowship, I will NOT argue nor debate, just have questions]

A male Anglican bishop can refuse to ordain a priest because she is a woman? Isn't a majority of the Church of England relatively liberal but not as liberal, as say, The Episcopal Church in the United States? I still have a lot to learn.

[I LOVE my Anglican and Episcopalian brothers and sisters in Christ, and will not post anything hurtful or mean-spirited. My prayers and love are with you all]

Hmmmm....

 

[RamiC]

[posting in fellowship, I will NOT argue nor debate, just have questions]

A male Anglican bishop can refuse to ordain a priest because she is a woman? Isn't a majority of the Church of England relatively liberal but not as liberal, as say, The Episcopal Church in the United States? I still have a lot to learn.

[I LOVE my Anglican and Episcopalian brothers and sisters in Christ, and will not post anything hurtful or mean-spirited. My prayers and love are with you all]

Hmmmm....

You might find this interesting...Religion and voting behaviour in the 2024 General Election - UK Election Analysis .

And yes, a male Church of England Bishop can refuse to ordain someone for being a woman.

 

[Paidiske]

[posting in fellowship, I will NOT argue nor debate, just have questions]

A male Anglican bishop can refuse to ordain a priest because she is a woman? Isn't a majority of the Church of England relatively liberal but not as liberal, as say, The Episcopal Church in the United States? I still have a lot to learn.

[I LOVE my Anglican and Episcopalian brothers and sisters in Christ, and will not post anything hurtful or mean-spirited. My prayers and love are with you all]

Hmmmm....

A bishop isn't obliged to ordain anyone, and can refuse without having to give a reason.

And Anglicans are a mixed lot, even in England. Not all of us are liberal or even "relatively liberal."

 

[RileyG]

A bishop isn't obliged to ordain anyone, and can refuse without having to give a reason.

And Anglicans are a mixed lot, even in England. Not all of us are liberal or even "relatively liberal."

Thanks for the response!