the wrath of God

Jeff Saunders said:

What I want to ask you can Yahweh do anything that is not a loving act? I do not believe he can , so how is creating humans that you know you are going to torture forever a loving act . Also why do assume that aionios means eternal in anything other than the eternal God ? We assume that aionios is eternal when talking about a place of punishment but what part of Yahweh’s character does it violate if his punishment is to repentance? Why does Yahweh not get what he desires, is he not powerful enough to do it? What tradition teaches is that Yahweh made a world that he wanted to have fellowship with all of his creation but satan came in and messed it up and now he is trying to save a small fraction of it. Why would Yahweh create a world he either won’t or can’t save? I really have trouble with the idea that satan is more powerful than God . Romans 5:15-20 seems to say that Gods grace is more powerful than sin , why do we teach the opposite? Is the judgement eternal yes but the judgement is not the same as the punishment. The judgement is did you follow Jesus while in the mortal body or not , if yes you are rewarded with heaven citizenship and adoption into Gods kingdom where we will rule and rein with Jesus. If no the judgement is eternal we get one chance while in our mortal body to accept Jesus or live to self. Once you die that judgement can never be reversed but the punishment is to repentance ( this is the heart of Yahweh who wants no one to parish) This goes straight to the heart and character of Yahweh he says we are to win over our enemy with love why would he ask us to do something he won’t do himself . How does eternal torture bring glory to Yahweh, that’s easy for him he has the power to do it , but to win all enemies over by love and in the end 1Cor 15 God will be all in all . Those who reject him as subjects of his kingdom those who followed him as partakers of that kingdom. Why do you think Jesus asked Peter who do kings collect taxes from their kids or the subjects of his kingdom. We are Gods family the others subjects of his kingdom.

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Der Alte said:

The problem with what you "believe" about "aionios" is it is an adjective. Age is a noun. An adjective cannot be translated as a noun. "Aionios" cannot be translated as "of the age" which requires the genitive case. Adjectives don't take the genitive case.

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setst777 said:

Jeff Saunders said: What I want to ask you can Yahweh do anything that is not a loving act? I do not believe he can , so how is creating humans that you know you are going to torture forever a loving act .

God's love and justice are displayed throughout the OT and, after this period of grace, God's Love and Justice will again be actively displayed at the Judgment in the Age to come.

Jeff Saunders said: Also why do assume that aionios means eternal in anything other than the eternal God ?

I review the immediate and broader context - what the Scriptures actually teach us about the events or things that aionios is referring to.

Jeff Saunders said: We assume that aionios is eternal when talking about a place of punishment but what part of Yahweh’s character does it violate if his punishment is to repentance?

When the Scriptures describe the Judgment to come, in all instances, the Scriptures illustrate and teach in many and varied ways, and with descriptive language, that the Judgment is final, perpetually unending. Judgment onto Life is perpetual with no end, and Judgment onto condemnation is perpetual with no end.

Judgment onto condemnation is described as a final destination for those who, in the present age, refuse God's grace, serving sin. This final destination is a place in which the wicked are burned with unquenchable fire and the Second Death (Revelation 21:5-8), shut out from the presence of God (Luke 13:23-28), a prison where no one can pay to get out (Matthew 5:22-26; Luke 12:57-58), and other similar language. I provided Scriptures for you to review regarding this.

Matthew 13:40-43 (WEB) 40 As therefore the weeds are gathered up and burned with fire; so will it be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will gather out of his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and those who do iniquity, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

That is how God describes His Love and Justice, and how it works.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 (WEB) 6 Since it is a righteous thing with God to repay affliction to those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted with us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 punishing those who don’t know God, and to those who don’t obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus, 9 who will pay the penalty: eternal (perpetual unending) destruction from the face of the Lord

Jeff Saunders said: Why does Yahweh not get what he desires, is he not powerful enough to do it?

God does not get what he desires, because God's will is to save those who believe (John 3:16-18; John 6:39-40).

Ezekiel 18:23 (WEB) 23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?” says the Lord Yahweh; “and not rather that he should return from his way, and live?

Ezekiel 33:11 (WEB) 11 Tell them, ‘“As I live,” says the Lord Yahweh, “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why will you die oh house of Israel?”’

Although God desires all to be saved, and to look to him for salvation, the Scriptures teach us that God gives all people a choice, and many will refuse, which displeases God. However, God will not over-rule our choice to believe or not believe in him.

Acts 7:51 (WEB) “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

Matthew 22:3 (WEB) He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

Romans 10:21 (WEB) 21 But concerning Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 (WEB) They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie; 12 and so, all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Luke 13:34 (WEB) “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

Jeff Saunders said: Why would Yahweh create a world he either won’t or can’t save?

God will save the world at the renewal of all things - but the saving of the world is for the righteous. The wicked are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Matthew 13:40-43 (WEB) 40 As therefore the weeds are gathered up and burned with fire; so will it be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will gather out of his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and those who do iniquity, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

That is restoration to purity - once all those who do evil are cast out. Then the righteous will shine in God's Kingdom forever.

Revelation 21:5-8 (WEB) 5 He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” He said, “Write, for these words of God are faithful and true.” 6 He said to me, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give freely to him who is thirsty from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes, I will give him these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son. 8 But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Jeff Saunders said: Once you die that judgement can never be reversed but the punishment is to repentance (this is the heart of Yahweh who wants no one to parish) This goes straight to the heart and character of Yahweh he says we are to win over our enemy with love why would he ask us to do something he won’t do himself.

God commands all people everywhere to repent now so they can be saved, but after this life is over, the Scriptures do not teach a second, third, or more, chance. If you think the Scriptures teach that those in the Lake of Fire get a second chance, please show me the Scriptures.

Jeff Saunders said: Why do you think Jesus asked Peter who do kings collect taxes from their kids or the subjects of his kingdom. We are Gods family the others subjects of his kingdom.

God's family are those who are led by the Spirit - those who hear the word of God and do it.

Romans 8:12-14 (NIV)
Writing to the Church in Rome
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it.13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

Luke 8:21 (WEB) 21 But he answered them, “My mother and my brothers are these who hear the word of God, and do it.”

Matthew 10:38 (WEB) 38 He who doesn’t take his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me.

Revelation 21:7 (WEB) 7 He who overcomes, I will give him these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son.

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Jeff Saunders said:

If aion is the noun and it’s a limited time how does it go to eternal in aionios the adjective form?

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Jeff Saunders said:

You say God does not get what he desires Is46:10 “ all my council, it shall be confirmed and all my desire shall I do “ Ps 115:3 “ our God is in the heavens all that he desires, he will do. You see this is the problem with trying to use scripture as a textbook without understanding the spirit behind the words you will often go astray. That is why John 5:39 says “ you search the scripture because you think they give eternal life. But the scripture is about me” 2Cor 3:6 “He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant not of the letter but of the spirit; for the letter kills , but the spirit gives life” If you read scripture with the wrong spirit you miss who God is , no different than what the Jews did , they had much of the Old Testament memorized but still what did Jesus say “ you do not know the Father” Until you read the scriptures as God being a loving Father who loves his creation you will be stuck in the pagan thinking that God is a angry God with all this wrath that needs to be satisfied and he is jealous, petty, moody ect a God made after man’s image.

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Der Alte said:

Lexical fallacy. Root fallacy. A derived word does not necessarily have the same meaning as the root word. E.g. "understand" has nothing to do with being beneath something or being erect on ones feet.

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Jeff Saunders said:

Ok I think I see what you see saying but can it have the same meaning? If it does does it violate any grammatical law

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Der Alte said:

Does this passage fit your narrative.

Jeremiah 13:11-14​

(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.​

(12) Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?​

(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.​

(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

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Der Alte said:

I don't know of any such law.

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Jeff Saunders said:

Then it’s possible for for aionios being derived from aion to be translated of the age .

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Jeff Saunders said:

Yes it does if one believes in the restoration of all things. If you look at what happens in this life as the end of the story, then the Lords punishment of those people sounds horrible. If one sees the this life as just the beginning of a huge epic story that Yahweh is doing and that by taking the wicked out of this mortal world sooner makes the debt they have to pay less. They spend less time in the lake of fire so it’s a merciful thing that Yahweh has done by destroying their mortal body. This is a story that is just getting started, this time on the earth is like a qualifier for a race , they run a qualifier race to see the position they get in the big race. We have no idea what Yahweh has in store for the rest of the ages. Eph 2:7 “ in the coming ages he might display the surpassing riches of his grace “ God is not obligated to tell us everything he has done or is going to do. The idea that if the Bible does say it it can’t be true is crazy, how is a infinite God supposed to be contained in a book ? If your God is totally contained in a book he would be a small God no matter how big the book was.

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Jeff Saunders said:

You say God does not get what he desires Is46:10 “ all my council, it shall be confirmed and all my desire shall I do “ Ps 115:3 “ our God is in the heavens all that he desires, he will do. You see this is the problem with trying to use scripture as a textbook without understanding the spirit behind the words you will often go astray. That is why John 5:39 says “ you search the scripture because you think they give eternal life. But the scripture is about me” 2Cor 3:6 “He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant not of the letter but of the spirit; for the letter kills , but the spirit gives life” If you read scripture with the wrong spirit you miss who God is , no different than what the Jews did , they had much of the Old Testament memorized but still what did Jesus say “ you do not know the Father” Until you read the scriptures as God being a loving Father who loves his creation you will be stuck in the pagan thinking that God is a angry God with all this wrath that needs to be satisfied and he is jealous, petty, moody ect a God made after man’s image.

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• It was not God's desire to cast 1/3 of the angels from heaven, but God's will be done.
• It was not God's desire to cast Adam and Eve out of the Garden, and to curse the earth for their sakes, but God's will demanded it.
• It was not God's desire to flood the whole earth and destroy all life on it, but God's justice demanded it.
• It was not God's desire to condemn Lord Jesus to be whipped, beaten, and nailed to a cross, but God's will demanded it so God's love could be extended to all who repent and believe in him (John 3:16).
• It was not God's desire to punish and kill most of the Elect Israel - the Apple of His eye - throughout history, but God's will in judgment against them must be fulfilled in righteousness.

Der Alte said:

But the Israelites and Judeans who disobeyed God were not sent to the lake of fire. They were destroyed. Where does the Bible say anyone will be un-destroyed?

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Jeff Saunders said:

I will ask you what was destroyed? I see it this way . 1Thess 5:23 “ And may the God of peace himself make you holy with absolute completeness and may the whole of you -spirit and soul and body- be preserved blamelessy at the arrival of our Lord Jesus the anointed.” We are triune and if we follow Jesus , yes the body dies but we get a new one. Those who reject God lose both body and soul but not their spirit. Heb 4:12 “ the word of God is living, sharper than any double edged sword it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit. Then we must decide what is the soul Jesus said Mark 8:35 / Matt 16:25/ Luke 9:24 all say the same thing that if you want to keep your life you must lose it but if you try to hold onto your life you will lose it. I see the soul as what each person has made and done with there life. ( remember I think scripture teaches us that this time on earth is just the start of Gods grand story and plan) if we give up our life now , by dying to self and living for Jesus now we will keep it in the next age but if we try to hold onto our life now and do what ever we want , like gratifying the flesh, we lose it in the next age no only do those who reject Jesus lose the body they lose their soul also only their spirit moves on to the next age, they get a new body but the soul they built while in the mortal body , gone all they built destroyed forever. And that is the second death.

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Der Alte said:

When God says "destroy" I understand that as totally cease to exist. Scripture does not support this final comment.

"those who reject Jesus lose the body they lose their soul also only their spirit moves on to the next age, they get a new body but the soul they built while in the mortal body, gone all they built destroyed forever. And that is the second death."​

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setst777 said:

Jeff Saunders said: You say God does not get what he desires Is46:10 “ all my council, it shall be confirmed and all my desire shall I do “ Ps 115:3 “ our God is in the heavens all that he desires, he will do. You see this is the problem with trying to use scripture as a textbook without understanding the spirit behind the words you will often go astray.

Isaiah 46:10 (WEB) I declare the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done. I say: My counsel will stand, and I will do all that I please.

Psalms 115:3 (WEB) But our God is in the heavens. He does whatever he pleases.

God's will be done on earth as it is in Heaven - God does what he pleases according to the Counsel of His will.

• It was not God's desire to cast 1/3 of the angels from heaven, but God's will be done.
• It was not God's desire to cast Adam and Eve out of the Garden, and to curse the earth for their sakes, but God's will demanded it.
• It was not God's desire to flood the whole earth and destroy all life on it, but God's justice demanded it.
• It was not God's desire to condemn Lord Jesus to be whipped, beaten, and nailed to a cross, but God's will demanded it so God's love could be extended to all who repent and believe in him (John 3:16).
• It was not God's desire to punish and kill most of the Elect Israel - the Apple of His eye - throughout history, but God's will in judgment against them must be fulfilled in righteousness.

While God's gracious intention is to have mercy on all, and God's desire is to save all people, God's will and good pleasure is to save all those who believe in His son.

John 6:39-40 (WEB)
39 This is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day.
40 For this is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

1 Corinthians 1:21 (WEB) 21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

God is also righteous; in that, By the will of God, those who refuse God's grace will be hardened so the unbelieving cannot be saved, but rather be condemned.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 (WEB) They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie; 12 and so, all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

John 12:40 (WEB) “He has blinded their eyes and he hardened their heart, lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, and would turn (repent), and I would heal them.” [Isaiah 6:10]

Revelation 22:11 (WEB) He who acts unjustly, let him act unjustly still. He who is filthy, let him be filthy still. He who is righteous, let him do righteousness still. He who is holy, let him be holy still.”

Romans 1:17-27 (WEB)
17 For in it is revealed God’s righteousness from faith to faith. As it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.” [Habakkuk 2:4] 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness ... 24 Therefore God also gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves; 25 who exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason, God gave them up to vile passions. For their women changed the natural function into that which is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural function of the woman, burned in their lust toward one another, men doing what is inappropriate with men, and receiving in themselves the due penalty of their error. 28 Even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up to a reprobate mind

Many will refuse God’s gracious invitation for salvation and so be condemned by God (Matthew 22:3; John 3:18; John 5:39-40; Acts 14:2; Acts 19:9; Romans 10:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:10; Hebrews 12:25; Revelation 16:9; Revelation 16:11).

Jeff Saunders said: That is why John 5:39 says “you search the scripture because you think they give eternal life.

Finish the quote from Lord Jesus as he intended it.

John 5:39-40 (NIV) 39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Those who believe are saved, and those refuse to believe are condemned. That is the Gospel (John 3:16-18).

Jeff Saunders said: He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant not of the letter but of the spirit; for the letter kills , but the spirit gives life” If you read scripture with the wrong spirit you miss who God is , no different than what the Jews did , they had much of the Old Testament memorized but still what did Jesus say “ you do not know the Father” Until you read the scriptures as God being a loving Father who loves his creation you will be stuck in the pagan thinking that God is a angry God with all this wrath that needs to be satisfied and he is jealous, petty, moody ect a God made after man’s image.

Read the Scriptures in context, and with an objective mind desiring to know what God actually says, then you will understand.

1 John 2:4-6 (WEB) 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

We do not show our love for God by rejecting those words of His that we find unappealing.

Isaiah 66:2 (WEB)
Has not my hand made all these things, and so they came into being?” declares the Lord.
“These are the ones I look on with favor: those who are humble and contrite in spirit, and who tremble at my word.

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Jeff Saunders said:

You say God does not get what he desires Is46:10 “ all my council, it shall be confirmed and all my desire shall I do “ Ps 115:3 “ our God is in the heavens all that he desires, he will do. ...

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Jeff Saunders said:

You said “ we do not show our love for God by rejecting those words of His that we find unappealing “ are you not doing the very same thing when you reject the scripture that I gave that said God gets all he desires?

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Der Alte said:

There is a big difference between God doing all He desires and men doing what God desires. People are not mindless robots who automatically do what God desires.
Jesus said "Whosoever believes on me." Jesus did not say "everybody WILL believe on me."

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setst777 said:

I quoted the Passages you provided, and neither states that God gets all he desires.

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setst777 said:

I quoted the Passages you provided, and neither states that God gets all he desires.

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