Does the entire story of the Bible prove predermination of Salvation?

Pipp@ said:

I was thinking of this earlier when looking at the story of the fall....
the bible says that the lamb was slain before the beginning of the world, so God knew before creating Adam and Eve that they would choose to disobey his command to not eat from the tree of good and evil, and he had already planned that he would redeem the world through Jesus Christ.

I've often wondered, what was the purpose of creation if he already knew what would happen? I've heard it said that he didn't want his children to be "robots" and to freely love him in return.

Do you think this is true?
Considering all the stories in the bible concerning disobedience, sin and God's wrath, do you think it really comes down to human choice?

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yes it is up to us to accept Jesus, God would like everyone to be saved.

Pipp@ said:

I was thinking of this earlier when looking at the story of the fall....
the bible says that the lamb was slain before the beginning of the world, so God knew before creating Adam and Eve that they would choose to disobey his command to not eat from the tree of good and evil, and he had already planned that he would redeem the world through Jesus Christ.

I've often wondered, what was the purpose of creation if he already knew what would happen? I've heard it said that he didn't want his children to be "robots" and to freely love him in return.

Do you think this is true?
Considering all the stories in the bible concerning disobedience, sin and God's wrath, do you think it really comes down to human choice?

Click to expand...

We serve a wonderful and righteous God who knows whats going to happen to us before it happens, he knows us better than we know ourselves. In order for our love for him to be perfect we have to go through a lot of trials, tribulations and circumstances. This is my belief, just like gold has to go through fire in order to be purified and perfect our love does too. Gold is the only metal that doesn't get destroyed through this purification process and it never changes properties. Just like gold our love for the Lord needs to be perfect.

Pipp@ said:

What I'm asking is, what is the point of creation the way God planned, since he knew before he created the world he would have to redeem humanity through Christ?

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God knew that He would have to prove His love for His people by sending Jesus to suffer and die, thus providing an example of true unselfish love.

Pipp@ said:

I was thinking of this earlier when looking at the story of the fall....
the bible says that the lamb was slain before the beginning of the world, so God knew before creating Adam and Eve that they would choose to disobey his command to not eat from the tree of good and evil, and he had already planned that he would redeem the world through Jesus Christ.

I've often wondered, what was the purpose of creation if he already knew what would happen? I've heard it said that he didn't want his children to be "robots" and to freely love him in return.

Do you think this is true?
Considering all the stories in the bible concerning disobedience, sin and God's wrath, do you think it really comes down to human choice?

Click to expand...

Yes, it does prove that...however, it also makes it clear that we must make that choice. Whether it's by free-will or predestination is irrelevant and splitting hairs.

Pipp@ said:

Prove what? I'm unsure what you're referring to from my OP.

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Predetermination

In my scant less-than-two-years as a Christian - albeit with a huge appetite for systematics and interest in digging down to the bedrock - I believe you're asking the exact core question that should loom in front of all of us.

Some thoughts - your mileage may vary (i.e. the parts that you don't like blame on Calvin, the parts that you do like attribute to me ):

Pipp@ said:

I've often wondered, what was the purpose of creation if he already knew what would happen? I've heard it said that he didn't want his children to be "robots" and to freely love him in return.

Click to expand...

Let's go the one necessary step farther: God didn't "know what would happen" as if there's something outside of himself that can drive or contribute to the narrative. He is the narrative, every little subatomic part of it. Douglas Wilson uses the "Author" metaphor to describe God, but I slightly prefer the "Director" film metaphor myself. And the movie's called "Creation", and every single pixel on the screen throughout the entire showing is there because God willed it and sustained it.

So I would ask instead "Why did God write and direct this movie called Creation?" Or, with a little more complexity: "Why didn't God just create the New Earth, with us already there in communion with him and the Son, with us already possessing the requisite love for God and his Glory, instead of playing out Creation?"

I think this might well be an open question that we just won't understand until we're on the other side of Judgement, but I believe that ours is a storytelling God. He doesn't want to skip to the final scene, he wants the story to play out, with this weird and not-quite-graspable relationship between us, his conscious Actors, and himself. He's put us on the inside of the movie, and imbued a deeply-felt sense of freedom to us, enough at least that we may please him for any righteousness or merit punishment for our inequities. Clearly you can see some strain on the Director/Actor analogy (i.e. if the Director wrote everything then isn't the Actor just a puppet?). Wilson's response to this was something like "Sure, a human author doesn't truly give agency to his characters - but wouldn't the Supreme Being have the power to go beyond these restrictions?". Can we grant to God true and complete Directorial power and at the same time the fact that he could have also made it that his actors feel free in all the ways that count?

Pipp@ said:

Considering all the stories in the bible concerning disobedience, sin and God's wrath, do you think it really comes down to human choice?

Click to expand...

The Bible does not clearly put it's foot down as to which nature - the Director's or the Actor's - we should take to be preeminent. If God wanted one or the other he would have made it so. But he didn't. So we're instead given a text that can be viewed and defended from either perspective, and it seems to be left to us to personally come to terms. If one wants to cling solely to man's freedom, then fine, it's correct - except for the countless verses to the contrary plus the troubling limitations that view places on God's omnipotence and omniscience. On the other hand if one wants to cling solely to God's sovereign predestination then fine, it's also correct - except for the countless verses to the contrary plus the troubling implications to freedom and theodicy.

Pipp@ said:

I was thinking of this earlier when looking at the story of the fall....
the bible says that the lamb was slain before the beginning of the world, so God knew before creating Adam and Eve that they would choose to disobey his command to not eat from the tree of good and evil, and he had already planned that he would redeem the world through Jesus Christ.

I've often wondered, what was the purpose of creation if he already knew what would happen? I've heard it said that he didn't want his children to be "robots" and to freely love him in return.

Do you think this is true?
Considering all the stories in the bible concerning disobedience, sin and God's wrath, do you think it really comes down to human choice?

Click to expand...

Everything needs to start with the objective.

The differences and issues begin with misunderstanding of the objective. Most Christians like: Man’s objective is to “bring glory to God” and have scripture references to support that objective, but a person can take any commandment or direction of God given in scripture and have Biblical support for call that command: “Man’s Objective”. We are certainly commanded to do that command, so why is it not man’s objective?

There are the two superior commands which all other commands are subordinate to and combined would be like: “Love God (and secondly others) with all your heart, soul, mind, and energy.” That appears to be man’s “Mission Statement”. The huge problem with fulfilling that “Mission Statement” is the fact that the “Love” needed would have to be huge, way beyond anything man could develop, learn, deserve, earn, pay back, be instinctive to man, or somehow just be forced upon humans.

Thus, the reason you have free will, is because it is required for you to complete your earthly objective.

This messed up world which includes satan roaming around is not here for your pleasure, but to help each of us to become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

There are just somethings even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), like create another Christ, since Christ has always existed, the big impossibility for us is; create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type of love and not a Godly type of Love. Also, if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type Love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)

Read the story of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15, the young son was generously given more then he could handle (like most of us today), which the father would realize. The prodigal son returned to his father, not out of “Love”, but selfishly wanting a job he did not deserve or should even ask for. Just because the son became just willing to accept pure undeserved charity from the father he hated, allowed the father to shower him with gifts. God is that way with you.

God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest gift being having a Love like His.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.

God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force [Love] in all universes, since that force [Love] compels even God to do all He does) and thus the willing become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time.

This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them, burden them, to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

Sin has purpose in helping willing humans in fulfilling their objective. God does not like it but allows it.

Pipp@ said:

I was thinking of this earlier when looking at the story of the fall....
the bible says that the lamb was slain before the beginning of the world, so God knew before creating Adam and Eve that they would choose to disobey his command to not eat from the tree of good and evil, and he had already planned that he would redeem the world through Jesus Christ.

I've often wondered, what was the purpose of creation if he already knew what would happen? I've heard it said that he didn't want his children to be "robots" and to freely love him in return.

Do you think this is true?
Considering all the stories in the bible concerning disobedience, sin and God's wrath, do you think it really comes down to human choice?

Click to expand...

I think people emphasize human choice primarily as a defense of God in the face of evil, and I don't believe it is an effective defense. Firstly, the idea that our ability to choose what is contrary to God's will is some great good that God values is absurd. God desires that we live within the divine will not contrary to it. Also, freedom, as it is communicated in the scriptures is not the ability to choose against the divine will but to be righteous. In fact, those who are free are those who are slaves of righteousness not sin, which is all I need to understand that the ability to choose contrary to the divine will is a not a great good that God somehow values.

Secondly, the argument seems to be that we cannot truly love God unless we are free to love God or not. Is that how we experience love? Did I choose my family whom I've loved all my life, and did I choose to love them? No, I want their good, which is love, and it has always been that way. I could not choose to not love them if I wanted to. I can accept the idea that we can choose to love others in so far as we choose to seek their good as far as we are able. But, again, having the ability to not choose to seek their good, which is clearly not love, is not some great good that God desires of us. The argument boils down to this: I can only love God if I am free to not love God. That is absurd. Are the eternal members of the Trinity free to not love the others. Is the Son free to not love the Father? I would hardly think so, and yet out of the Trinity comes love.

It is a mystery as to why God chose to create this world with all the evil, sin, sorrow, and suffering that it entails. The scriptures are silent as to the ultimate origin of evil, but they say a lot about what God is doing to bring this creation to its good consummation. I agree with Irenaeus, we were created spiritually immature and reached for the fruit too soon. And I would go further and say that when we finally come to our full maturity in Jesus Christ, we will be unable to sin, not because we are no longer free, but because are free in Christ, which is true freedom.

Pipp@ said:

I was thinking of this earlier when looking at the story of the fall....
the bible says that the lamb was slain before the beginning of the world, so God knew before creating Adam and Eve that they would choose to disobey his command to not eat from the tree of good and evil, and he had already planned that he would redeem the world through Jesus Christ.

I've often wondered, what was the purpose of creation if he already knew what would happen? I've heard it said that he didn't want his children to be "robots" and to freely love him in return.

Do you think this is true?
Considering all the stories in the bible concerning disobedience, sin and God's wrath, do you think it really comes down to human choice?

Click to expand...

I am really impressed with this thread . . . and your thinking.

Why is God doing all of this if He knows exactly what the outcome will be? The answer is clear . . . Power. We are a demonstration of His Almighty Power in how He fulfills His prewritten Plan.

Ephesians 3:9-11 NLT - "I was chosen to explain to everyone this mysterious plan that God, the Creator of all things, had kept secret from the beginning. God's purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord."

This should be rather evident to us all . . . if only our "pastors" and "teachers" would have taught us these things. But they haven't, and they don't . . . and we should question them about these remarkable Scriptures. But watch out, for false teachers almost always fall back upon anger as a tool to deflect our questioning.

Pipp@ said:

What I'm asking is, what is the point of creation the way God planned, since he knew before he created the world he would have to redeem humanity through Christ?

Click to expand...

He knew we would need a change of heart, redemption.

What's predestined is that whoever will turn in faith to Christ will join in salvation.

Pipp@ said:

Yes, I've always been baffled by this passage...
Why would the creator of everything need to prove his power and wisdom to the "created" beings? Especially to Satan?

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That is a great question that I hadn't thought of before. I like the way you think.