Was Adam perfect before the fall ?

Carl Emerson said:

Hello Friends,

I am interested in some discussion around what was lost during the fall.

It seems as if 'to the innocent all things are innocent' applied to Adam and Eve, created good, yet fell.

That begs the question as to if total depravity of man, if you believe in it, is part of the curse of the fall.

This then leads us to conclude that after the fall, man was not fully human, having lost the innocence of Adam.

In Christ then, our humanness is fully restored?

Finally the conclusion is that the unsaved are not fully human ???

Bare with me - I am presenting questions - I am sure about the vast chasm between our so called righteousness and the Holiness of God.

But I am unsure about the concept of total depravity and what that means, given the way God described Job and the favour Noah found.

The reason I am raising this is because total depravity can lead to believers failing to act as they perceive all their efforts as essentially unrighteous.

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Hi Carl, you ask the best questions!

Some thoughts:

1. What was lost during The Fall? Technically (Gen 3) in order of God's proclamation I would say painless childbirth, perfect alignment of desire between men and women, immortality, freedom from pain, freedom from toil, residency in the Garden, and finally the innocence of not knowing good from evil. I call this a proclamation rather than a curse per se since, at least textually, only the serpent and the ground were "cursed". I thought for sure Paul would have later referred to it as a curse, but unless I'm mistaken I don't think he does.
2. Re. "after the fall man was not fully human" - this is only true is you presuppose that Adam himself was no longer human too, which I'm not sure there's scriptural support for. To me Adam's attributes changed, but not his humanness nor that of his successors.
3. This side of Judgement we are still sinners, still in possession of those fallen attributes, which are all restored in the New Earth.
4. God's description of Job (e.g. "that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man"), to me at least, is to be interpreted colloquially and not doctrinally. I don't see this as indicating that Job was somehow devoid of the fallen attributes - his children died after all, affirming that they were fallen, as expected.
5. I'd agree that if a Christian - any Christian - failed to act (I presume by this you mean act righteously or in line with the Word) then that would be an error. To them I would simply say that we are told very clearly to believe in Jesus and, now being in Christ, "whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God." (John 3:21)

This is of course me stumbling around in the dark - I'm all ears for your thoughts!

Carl Emerson said:

Hello Friends,

I am interested in some discussion around what was lost during the fall.

It seems as if 'to the innocent all things are innocent' applied to Adam and Eve, created good, yet fell.

That begs the question as to if total depravity of man, if you believe in it, is part of the curse of the fall.

This then leads us to conclude that after the fall, man was not fully human, having lost the innocence of Adam.

In Christ then, our humanness is fully restored?

Finally the conclusion is that the unsaved are not fully human ???

Bare with me - I am presenting questions - I am sure about the vast chasm between our so called righteousness and the Holiness of God.

But I am unsure about the concept of total depravity and what that means, given the way God described Job and the favour Noah found.

The reason I am raising this is because total depravity can lead to believers failing to act as they perceive all their efforts as essentially unrighteous.

Click to expand...

If you define "fully human" as "sinless nature and innocent like Adam at his creation" then you can make those 'not fully human' statements in that context.

But not everyone will select that particular definition for "fully human"

Rom 9 talks about "hardening the heart" --- if one's heart can be hardened... if a lost person's heart can be hardened against the Gospel then it means there was a point where the lost person's heart was not hardened prior to that. Which means depravity had a limit and from there the person chose to harden their heart against the Gospel. So that initial state depravity needs a little work in definition.

Carl Emerson said:

Hello Friends,

I am interested in some discussion around what was lost during the fall.

It seems as if 'to the innocent all things are innocent' applied to Adam and Eve, created good, yet fell.

That begs the question as to if total depravity of man, if you believe in it, is part of the curse of the fall.

This then leads us to conclude that after the fall, man was not fully human, having lost the innocence of Adam.

In Christ then, our humanness is fully restored?

Finally the conclusion is that the unsaved are not fully human ???

Bare with me - I am presenting questions - I am sure about the vast chasm between our so called righteousness and the Holiness of God.

But I am unsure about the concept of total depravity and what that means, given the way God described Job and the favour Noah found.

The reason I am raising this is because total depravity can lead to believers failing to act as they perceive all their efforts as essentially unrighteous.

Click to expand...

Your making this rather complicated and I am certain you will recieve comments that add to that rather than simplify your query.

God made man in His image ( only) . Only to bring spirituality to the flesh. He could have stopped at the animals, but He did not. He made man for Himself.
God walked with Adam and Eve in the beginning with His Holy Spirit ,giving them every opportunity to stay in Him . He also granted them free will to do what they pleased. They chose a path that was unpleasing to God yet , God still provided for them.

Depravity is a folklore at best. We are not deprived because He is here when we call upon Him. He gave His only begotten Son to restore His relationship with us. This is pure love for His creation in His image.

There is no chasm there is a bridge to which few are willing to Cross.
Blessings.

Carl Emerson said:

Hello Friends,
I am interested in some discussion around what was lost during the fall.
It seems as if 'to the innocent all things are innocent' applied to Adam and Eve, created good, yet fell.
That begs the question as to if total depravity of man, if you believe in it, is part of the curse of the fall.
This then leads us to conclude that after the fall, man was not fully human, having lost the innocence of Adam.
In Christ then, our humanness is fully restored?
Finally the conclusion is that the unsaved are not fully human ???
Bare with me - I am presenting questions - I am sure about the vast chasm between our so called righteousness and the Holiness of God.

Click to expand...

But I am unsure about the concept of total depravity and what that means, given the way God described Job and the favour Noah found.
The reason I am raising this is because total depravity can lead to believers failing to act as they perceive all their efforts as essentially unrighteous.

Click to expand...

Total depravity applies only to the unregenerate, who have no spiritual power to right themselves, apart from the grace of God doing so.
With the new birth comes the power of God working in the human spirit to transform one into the image of Christ.

Clare73 said:

Total depravity applies only to the unregenerate, who have no spiritual power to right themselves, apart from the grace of God doing so.
With the new birth comes the power of God working in the human spirit to transform one into the image of Christ.

Click to expand...

It is an unfortunate term and is not found in the Bible. But the part that is in the Bible is the fact that all are sinners, all have a sinful nature. Our sinful nature is such that we would not seek after God or come to God apart from the supernatural drawing of God where as Christ said "I will draw all mankind unto Me" John 12:32. that supernatural drawing of all mankind enables all mankind to choose to accept the gospel if they will. But not all will. Many choose to harden their heart even though having been enabled to accept the Gospel by the drawing of Christ.

BobRyan said:

It is an unfortunate term and is not found in the Bible. But the part that is in the Bible is the fact that all are sinners, all have a sinful nature. Our sinful nature is such that we would not seek after God or come to God apart from the supernatural drawing of God where as Christ said "I will draw all mankind unto Me" John 12:32. that supernatural drawing of all mankind enables all mankind to choose to accept the gospel if they will. But not all will. Many choose to harden their heart even though having been enabled to accept the Gospel by the drawing of Christ.

Click to expand...

In light of what is found in the Bible, Ro 8:7-8:
"the sinful mind is hostile to God, It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature (unregenerate) cannot please God,"
the term "depravity" is most accurate.

Total depravity is false just like the type of salvation that accompanies this line of thinking a works/obedience type of salvation.

From an article at faithalone.org
total depravity is unbiblical. It is not true that unbelievers cannot respond to God. Cornelius, in Acts 10, blows that teaching out of the water. He was not like a cadaver at the bottom of a well before he was born again. As a result of Cornelius’s prayers and alms, God sent him a message via an angel. Cornelius understood God’s message and sent for Simon Peter. When Peter came and evangelized him, Cornelius was born again as a result of faith, not before faith (Acts 10:43-48; 11:14; 15:7-11).

d taylor said:

Total depravity is false just like the type of salvation that accompanies this line of thinking a works/obedience type of salvation.

From an article at faithalone.org
total depravity is unbiblical. It is not true that unbelievers cannot respond to God. Cornelius, in Acts 10, blows that teaching out of the water. He was not like a cadaver at the bottom of a well before he was born again. As a result of Cornelius’s prayers and alms, God sent him a message via an angel. Cornelius understood God’s message and sent for Simon Peter. When Peter came and evangelized him, Cornelius was born again as a result of faith, not before faith (Acts 10:43-48; 11:14; 15:7-11).

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How about responding to Ro 8:7-8, or 1Co 2:14, or Jn 3:3-5.

Clare73 said:

How about responding to Ro 8:7-8, or 1Co 2:14, or Jn 3:3-5.

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All Romans 8 is saying is a believer can not please God with their works that they do with a carnal mind ( a worldly mind set). So a believer, when they do works in The Spirit that will please God and when they appear at The Judgment Seat of The Messiah, those works done in The Spirit will reap rewards while other works done without The Spirit (with a carnal mind) will be burned up.

John 3 is addressing being born again that is an unbeliever becoming a believer by faith in The Messiah.

1st Corinthians 2 is addressing the unbeliever or carnal believer cannot judge the spiritual mature believer.

Clare73 said:

In light of what is found in the Bible, Ro 8:7-8:
"the sinful mind is hostile to God, It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature (unregenerate) cannot please God,"
the term "depravity" is most accurate.

Click to expand...

True - but "total depravity" makes it appear that there can be no such thing as the 'hardening' of the heart that we see in Rom 9 since there is nothing left to "harden" in that case of "Total".

d taylor said:

All Romans 8 is saying is a believer can not please God with their works that they do with a carnal mind

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Romans 8 never mentions "a believer with a carnal mind".

It mentions only the lost vs the saved. Only those with the Holy Spirit and those without.

He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are in accord with the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

In that example the lost person is described as not having the Holy Spirit, not Christ's at all, at war with God, not able to subject themselves to the Law of God.

BobRyan said:

Romans 8 never mentions "a believer with a carnal mind".

It mentions only the lost vs the saved. Only those with the Holy Spirit and those without.

He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are in accord with the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

In that example the lost person is described as not having the Holy Spirit, not Christ's at all, at war with God, not able to subject themselves to the Law of God.

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Paul is addressing believers.

d taylor said:

Paul is addressing believers.

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True -- he telling them about the two groups of humanity... the lost and the saved. He contrasts them in Rom 8.

In that example the lost person is described as;

1. not having the Holy Spirit
2. , not Christ's at all,
3. at war with God,
4. not able to subject themselves to the Law of God.

Brother-Mike said:

Hi Carl, you ask the best questions!

Some thoughts:

1. What was lost during The Fall? Technically (Gen 3) in order of God's proclamation I would say painless childbirth, perfect alignment of desire between men and women, immortality, freedom from pain, freedom from toil, residency in the Garden, and finally the innocence of not knowing good from evil. I call this a proclamation rather than a curse per se since, at least textually, only the serpent and the ground were "cursed". I thought for sure Paul would have later referred to it as a curse, but unless I'm mistaken I don't think he does.
2. Re. "after the fall man was not fully human" - this is only true is you presuppose that Adam himself was no longer human too, which I'm not sure there's scriptural support for. To me Adam's attributes changed, but not his humanness nor that of his successors.
3. This side of Judgement we are still sinners, still in possession of those fallen attributes, which are all restored in the New Earth.
4. God's description of Job (e.g. "that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man"), to me at least, is to be interpreted colloquially and not doctrinally. I don't see this as indicating that Job was somehow devoid of the fallen attributes - his children died after all, affirming that they were fallen, as expected.
5. I'd agree that if a Christian - any Christian - failed to act (I presume by this you mean act righteously or in line with the Word) then that would be an error. To them I would simply say that we are told very clearly to believe in Jesus and, now being in Christ, "whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God." (John 3:21)

This is of course me stumbling around in the dark - I'm all ears for your thoughts!

Click to expand...

Well done

BobRyan said:

True -- he telling them about the two groups of humanity... the lost and the saved. He contrasts them in Rom 8.

In that example the lost person is described as;

1. not having the Holy Spirit
2. , not Christ's at all,
3. at war with God,
4. not able to subject themselves to the Law of God.

Click to expand...

No, Paul is addressing the carnal and spiritual believer

d taylor said:

All Romans 8 is saying is a believer can not please God with their works that they do with a carnal mind ( a worldly mind set). So a believer, when they do works in The Spirit that will please God and when they appear at The Judgment Seat of The Messiah, those works done in The Spirit will reap rewards while other works done without The Spirit (with a carnal mind) will be burned up.

John 3 is addressing being born again that is an unbeliever becoming a believer by faith in The Messiah.

1st Corinthians 2 is addressing the unbeliever or carnal believer cannot judge the spiritual mature believer.

Click to expand...

That presents your lack of understanding of those Scriptures.

Brother-Mike said:

Hi Carl, you ask the best questions!

Some thoughts:

1. What was lost during The Fall? Technically (Gen 3) in order of God's proclamation I would say painless childbirth, perfect alignment of desire between men and women, immortality, freedom from pain, freedom from toil, residency in the Garden, and finally the innocence of not knowing good from evil. I call this a proclamation rather than a curse per se since, at least textually, only the serpent and the ground were "cursed". I thought for sure Paul would have later referred to it as a curse, but unless I'm mistaken I don't think he does.
2. Re. "after the fall man was not fully human" - this is only true is you presuppose that Adam himself was no longer human too, which I'm not sure there's scriptural support for. To me Adam's attributes changed, but not his humanness nor that of his successors.
3. This side of Judgement we are still sinners, still in possession of those fallen attributes, which are all restored in the New Earth.
4. God's description of Job (e.g. "that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man"), to me at least, is to be interpreted colloquially and not doctrinally. I don't see this as indicating that Job was somehow devoid of the fallen attributes - his children died after all, affirming that they were fallen, as expected.
5. I'd agree that if a Christian - any Christian - failed to act (I presume by this you mean act righteously or in line with the Word) then that would be an error. To them I would simply say that we are told very clearly to believe in Jesus and, now being in Christ, "whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God." (John 3:21)

This is of course me stumbling around in the dark - I'm all ears for your thoughts!

Click to expand...

Adam and Eve’s first sin is not described in scripture as a “fall” and is a transition.

You did not “inherit” anything bad from Adam and Eve, your “nature” prior to your first sin is the same as Adam/Eve.

Adam and Eve did obtain additional “knowledge” that was passed down to all of us in the form of a conscience, but is knowledge bad in and of itself?

This world as it exists right now is the very best place for willing humans to fulfill their earthly objective, while as we learn from the Adam and Eve story the Garden is a lousy (impossible) place to fulfill our earthly objective. We can thus be grateful to Adam and Eve for going through that situation and allowing us to learn from them. Adam and Eve prior to sinning did not fulfill their earthly objective in what we might consider an ideal situation.

Here is the question:

Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your personal ability to be obedient to all God’s rules forever (that is the garden before sin situation) or in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your humbly accepting God’s charity (that is where you are today)?

Man just cannot by man’s own power continue forever in obedience and that is what our best all human representatives (Adam and Eve) showed us early on in their story.

Yes, lots of things were “cursed” by God to provide limited resources, pain, death, and hardship, but these things also helped humans to fulfill their earthly objective.

God made Adam and Eve as He describes “very good” but that is not perfect. Christ was perfect but Christ was not a created being and always had Godly type Love. We on the other hand have to obtain Godly type Love, but remember we just cannot be created with this Love.

God is doing all He can to help us choose His Love over selfish love, but it has to be a real choice (no gun to the head).

So God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force in all universes that compels even God to do all He does) and become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).



What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation?



Again there are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)



This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).



An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision without the selection being worthy of anything (it is a gift of pure charity).



This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.



Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.



All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

That is an introduction to a huge topic.

Carl Emerson said:

Thoughtful response thanks...

1.

Revelation 22:2-4​

2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve [a]kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; 4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads.

This would seem to indicate that the sicknesses of man (the Nations) was indeed a curse.

2. Yes - How do we see being fully human. Is this not the state Adam enjoyed before the fall? When we are in Christ we are a new creation.

3. Yes - Personally I believe they are restored as we are resurrected.

4. Interesting verse and right on the button. However are we ever within range of the way He walked and talked in our best moments - I think not.

Any righteousness we may have is imputed through the cross - no ??

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1. Good find, and I know this question of "curse" or not isn't the main topic here, so I'm happy to understand it either way. Even if one takes the "not curse" position the fallen attributes certainly seem to FUNCTION like a curse. But since we're splitting hairs, and God built me (and I think you too?) to enjoy the sub-splitting of micro-subatomic-hairs, take a closer look at your quoted Rev 22:2-4 above. Rev 22:2 is talking about geography - the middle of the street, the other side of the river, the nations. Rev 22:3 says "... and the throne of God and the Lamb will be IN IT" which to me is still about geography. What is the "it" referred to here? I think it's "the Tree". Either way the entire section, in my eyes, is all about the ground curse still. 100%. On the other hand, I would 100% agree that "There will no longer be any curse" is universal and would encompass any curse anywhere in the New Earth. If God decides to curse my pet gerbil Mordecai six months from now and Morty and I are reunited in the New Earth I would expect him to be one uncursed gerbil.

2. I'm not married to the definition of "human" one way or another, so if to you "human" means the uncursed, pre-fall man then that works for me.

3. Works for me - my vote would be at Judgement, but I don't believe we have enough information either way to don our jousting fineries.

4. Agreed. To me the essence of Job is to hammer home that no one is exempt from The Drama's occasional, eventual suffering.

5. Agreed on the cross' imputation of righteousness