Is the Book of Revelation the only place in Scripture teaching eternal torment?

P1LGR1M · Sep 13, 2022

Other Sheep said:
The 10-Lost-Tribes are being destroyed by "shepherds", Matthew 23:8-10.

It is true, the shepherds are guilty of leading them astray, but that doesn't mean that any man will stand in judgment and place the blame on their spiritual leaders.

Men will be held individually responsible for their sins, or they will trust in Christ.

When Christ spoke of the Lost Sheep of Israel, He wasn't referring to Ephraim or Judah, He was referring to Israel.

Jacob.

The entire Nation.

Other Sheep said:
Hosea 4:6 My people are like as if they had no knowledge; because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt not minister as priest to Me; and as thou has forgotten the Law of thy God, I also will forget thy children.

Zechariah 11:7-17 And I will tend the sheep of the slaughter in the [land of the] Canaanites. And I will take for Myself two rods; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called, A piece of measured out land; and I will tend the sheep.[8] And I will lift away the three shepherds in one month; and My soul shall be weighed down over them, for their souls roared against Me.ABP

Jeremiah 27:4-7 In those days, and at that time, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Juda together; they shall proceed, weeping as they go, seeking the Lord their God.[5] They shall ask the way till they come to Sion, for that way shall they set their face; and they shall come and flee for refuge to the Lord their God; for the everlasting covenant shall not be forgotten.[6] My people have been lost sheep: their shepherds thrust them out, they caused them to wander on the mountains: they went from mountain to hill, they forgot their resting-place.[7] All that found them consumed them: their enemies said, Let us not leave them alone, because they have sinned against the Lord: He that gathered their fathers had a pasture of righteousness.LXX

John 10:1-5 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.[2] But He that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.[3] To Him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear His voice: and He calleth His own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.[4] And when He putteth forth His own sheep, He goeth before them, and the sheep follow Him: for they know His voice.[5] And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.KJV

Jeremiah 3:1-3 If a man put away his wife and she depart from him, and become another man’s, shall she return to him any more at all? shall not that woman be utterly defiled? ye thou hast gone a-whoring with many shepherds, and hast returned to Me, saith the Lord.[2] Lift up thine eyes to look straight forward, and see where thou hast not been utterly defiled. Thou hast sat for them by the wayside as a deserted crow, and hast defiled the land with thy fornications and thy wickedness.[3] And thou didst retain many shepherds for a stumbling-block to thyself: thou hadst a harlot’s face, thou didst become shameless toward all.LXX

Funny, but I don't see mention of ten lost tribes in there. Could you point them out for me?

Other Sheep said:
Those who don't know History are doomed to repeat it.

I agree, hence we should not be many masters, right?

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Sep 13, 2022

Other Sheep said:
Isaiah 7:14-16 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; behold, a virgin shall conceive in the womb, and shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Emmanuel.[15] Butter and honey shall he eat, before he knows either to prefer evil or choose the good.[16] For before the child shall know good or evil, he refuses evil, to choose the good; and the land shall be forsaken which thou art afraid of because of the two kings.

That is actually pretty good, lol.

So where do we see an age of accountability expressed that doesn't refer to God manifest in the flesh?

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Sep 13, 2022

Other Sheep said:
"not God's will that men perish" "that all will be saved" = your theory, not mine.

It's not a theory, it's just a basic Bible Principle:

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

John 3:16
King James Version

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Sep 13, 2022

DavidPT said:
A fact of life is that some infants die as infants, for example. We know that they are not accountable for anything based on the following for one.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Nothing in this proves an "age of accountability."

Furthermore, the very suggestion that there is an "age of accountability" suggests that salvation is a result of what man does in his daily conversation.

Man does not go to Hell because he sins, he goes to Hell for rejecting God's will.

Man is not separated from God because he sins, man sins because he is separated from God.

DavidPT said:
What does the text indicate involves every single person here?

1. They are dead;

2. They are all judged;

3. Their names are not written in the Book of Life.

DavidPT said:
This---and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. What works could an infant who died as an infant possibly have written in these books?

You're forgetting something:

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

What works could a man who is above "the age of accountability" do not to be blotted from the Book of Life?

You realize you are promoting works-based salvation, don't you?

DavidPT said:
None, as in zero.

Just not accurate: their names will be found in the Book of Life.

While that is a controversial position, we see that God has always judged men based on their response to His will.

Infants are not cast into the Lake of Fire because they will receive judgment according to their works and deeds like everyone else. And like everyone else, they will be saved, not because of works, but by the grace of God.

We are saved by grace—period.

And just as every Old Testament Saint did not place specific faith in Christ and received grace, even so shall the babes and mentally challenged receive grace.

DavidPT said:
Therefore, this alone proves no one is held accountable for their actions prior to the age of accountability, whatever age that might be.

Sorry, but the reasoning is faulty, hence the conclusion is faulty.

People aren't saved because they don't sin.

People are saved from the separation they are born into.

And that not of themselves, whether they are babes or people who are old enough to know better.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 13, 2022

DavidPT said:
When one reaches 15 or so, such as in my examples, they are obviously beyond the age of accountabilty at this point unless they are severely mentally challenged or something, where they don't grasp the simplist of things.

So they are old enough to do good deeds and be saved?

DavidPT said:
And if they die at 15 or so, and die in a lost state rather than a saved state, how is that deserving of being tormented day and night forever and ever?

So once they hit 16 they are deserving of being tormented day and night forever?

God will judge all men according to their deeds or He will judge their sin in the Person of Jesus Christ.

And He will do so justly.

DavidPT said:
Why was I allowed more years in order to be saved eventually but they weren't?

Because was not willing that you should perish.

That is why He took on the flesh of men and died in your place.

That doesn't change the fact that there will be those who will never see life:

John 3:36
King James Version

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

What does it mean for those who will never see life?

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 13, 2022

DavidPT said:
Though they may have been rebellious teens at the time, just like I was, who's to say, had they lived more years, maybe they too would have been saved eventually.

This is why the Lord is said to be patient because He wants men to be saved.

Doesn't change the fact all men will not be saved.

That He will show grace to babies doesn't excuse those who have received revelation of His will.

DavidPT said:
If one argues, well God already knew that had they lived more years, they still would have never been saved, therefore, for them to have died at such a young age doesn't matter since God already knew they weren't going to be saved anyway, even if they had lived more years.

Only those who don't want to accept the teachings of Scripture argue about things like this, and their arguments are never very good, lol. Just philosophizing according to flesh and blood.

Rationalization. Psycho-babble.

DavidPT said:
So, why doesn't God apply that to everyone He knows will never be saved regardless how many years they get to live?

The Word of God consistently teaches that God is just in His dealings with man.

You are charging God with error.

DavidPT said:
Have them all die at an early age since they are never going to be saved no matter what anyway.

Some people think that way. Drive their kids into lakes.

That is not God's will.

His will is that every man be obedient to the revelation He provides them. This has been true in every Age, and more true today seeing that He is personally revealing truth to the hearts of men.

Babies do not get a free pass, they are conceived into a state of separation from God.

That problem still has to be remedied, and the only remedy is Jesus Christ. Who God gives grace unto is His business, all we can do is acknowledge what Scripture states about His dealings with those who reject His will.

God bless.

JulieB67 · Sep 13, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
So once they hit 16 they are deserving of being tormented day and night forever?

Just out of curiousity do you yourself personally believe someone like young Jewish Anne Frank will burn in hell for an eternity?

Ligurian · Sep 13, 2022

Other Sheep said:
You really don't understand the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, aka the 10-Lost-Tribes. They're being destroyed by unlawful "shepherds", Matthew 23:8-10. Hosea 4:6, Zechariah 11:7-17, Jeremiah 27:4-7, Jeremiah 3:1-3, John 10:5

P1LGR1M said:
Sure I do.

It is the same Gospel that Gentiles would receive as well.

There is only One Gospel.

The Gospel of the Kingdom for the House of Israel will eventually be unveiled to them as the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

They will receive a literal physical kingdom on this earth, but that doesn't change the fact the eventual outcome of the "Gospel of the Kingdom for the House of Israel" is the Eternal State where the House of Israel will be part of the One Fold having One Shepherd.
[...]chronicles[...]
The "Ten Lost Tribes" myth is, as far as I am concerned, as racist as it is ridiculous.

The division of the Kingdom did not leave ten tribes disappearing into anonymity.

P1LGR1M said:
It is the same Gospel that Gentiles would receive as well.

Go not into the way of the Gentiles

Matthew 10:5-7 These Twelve Ιησους sent forth and Commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:[6] But go rather to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.[7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the Lost Sheep of the house of Israel.

P1LGR1M said:
There is only One Gospel.

Paul calls his gospel "Christ crucified". 1 Corinthians 1:23, 1 Corinthians 2:2, Galatians 3:1, etc.

:scratch:

How could that /\ have been taught... way back in Matthew 4:23?

In fact, "christ crucified" was NOT the Gospel Ιησους taught before this:

Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Ιησους to shew unto His Disciples, how that He must go unto Jerusalem and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed and be raised again the third day.

So... from the time of John's baptism, through the Sermon on the Mount, through all the parables/prophecies about what the Pharisees were going to do to the Prophet like unto Moses... a Gospel NOT about the crucifixion was being taught by the Son...

:scratch:

and you're saying it's all the same gospel to you?

Even though Paul never once mentions that woman from Matthew 26:13?
Paul never quotes the Sermon on the Mount... Or the parables...
If he had, then his gospel would not have been "mysteries"...
It would have been well-known to all, waaay BEFORE Paul from Arabia.

There's nothing vicarious about the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Neither imputations, nor reckoning this or spiritual that.
Just straight-up Law-Keeping 101.

It'd be hard to find two things MORE different than These Two Gospels.

P1LGR1M said:
The Gospel of the Kingdom for the House of Israel will eventually be unveiled to them as the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

STILL incorrect, for two more reasons:

Isaiah 52:5-7 Thus saith the Lord, On account of you My name is continually blasphemed among the gentiles.[6] Therefore shall My people know My name in that day, for I am He that speaks: I am present,[7] as a season of beauty upon the mountains, as the feet of one preaching glad tidings of peace, as one preaching good news: for I will publish thy salvation, saying, O Sion, thy God shall reign.LXX (Deuteronomy 18:18-19, John 12:48-50, John 17:6-8)

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of My God and he shall go no more out. And I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God: New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of Heaven from My God, and My new name.

P1LGR1M said:
The "Ten Lost Tribes" myth is, as far as I am concerned, as racist as it is ridiculous.

Isaiah 43:19-21 Behold, I will do new things, which shall presently spring forth, and ye shall know them: and I will make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the dry land.[20] the beasts of the field shall bless Me, the owls and young ostriches; for I have given water in the wilderness and rivers in the dry land, to give drink to My chosen race,[21] My people whom I have preserved to tell forth My praises.LXX

Amos 3:1-2 Hear ye this word, O house of Israel, which the Lord has spoken concerning you, and against the whole family whom I brought up out of the land of Egypt, saying,[2] Only you I knew from out of all the tribes of the earth, therefore will I take vengeance upon you for all your sins.LXX

P1LGR1M said:
The division of the Kingdom did not leave ten tribes disappearing into anonymity.

Not disappeared, nope.

Jeremiah 3:18 In those days the house of Juda shall come together to the house of Israel, and they shall come together from the land of the north, and from all the countries to the land which I caused their fathers to inherit.LXX

Jeremiah 31:27-32 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Juda with the seed of man, and the seed of beast.[28] And it shall come to pass, that as I watched over them, to pull down, and to afflict, so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the Lord.[29] In those days they shall certainly not say, The fathers ate a sour grape, and the children’s teeth were set on edge.[30] But every one shall die in his own sin; and the teeth of him that eats the sour grape shall be set on edge.[31] Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Juda:[32] not according to the Covenant which I made with their fathers in the day when I took hold of their hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, for they abode not in My Covenant and I disregarded them, saith the Lord.[33] For this is My Covenant which I will make with the house of Israel; after those days, saith the Lord, I will surely put My Laws into their mind, and write them on their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people.LXX

Isaiah 43:1-7 And now thus saith the Lord God that made thee O Jacob, and formed thee O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name, thou art Mine.[2] And if thou pass through water I am with thee and the rivers shall not overflow thee, and if thou go through fire thou shalt not be burned, the flame shall not burn thee.[3] For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel that saves thee, I have made Egypt and Ethiopia thy ransom and given Soene for thee.[4] Since thou becamest precious in My sight, thou hast become glorious and I have loved thee: and I will give men for thee and princes for thy life.[5] Fear not, for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and will gather thee from the west.[6] I will say to the north, Bring; and to the south, Keep not back; bring My sons from the land afar off, and My daughters from the ends of the earth;[7] even all who are called by My name. For I have prepared him for My glory, and I have formed him and have made him.LXX

Jeremiah 38:1-6 At that time, saith the Lord, I will be a God to the family of Israel, and they shall be to Me a people.[2] Thus saith the Lord, I found him warm in the wilderness with them that were slain with the sword: go ye and destroy not Israel.[3] The Lord appeared to him from afar, saying, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore have I drawn thee in compassion.[4] For I will build thee and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt yet take thy timbrel and go forth with the party of them that make merry.[5] For ye have planted vineyards on the mountains of Samaria: plant ye, and praise.[6] For it is a day when those that plead on the mountains of Ephraim shall call, saying, Arise ye, and go up to Sion to the Lord your God.

Revelation 3:7-13 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These things saith He that is holy, He that is true, He that hath the key of David, He that openeth and no man shutteth, and shutteth and no man openeth:[8] I know thy works. Behold, I have set before thee an open door and no man can shut it, for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept My word and hast not denied My name.[9] Behold, I will make them of the assembly of Satan: which say they are Jews and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.[10] Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the Earth.[11] Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.[12] Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go no more out. And I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God: New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of Heaven from My God, and My new name.[13] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Ligurian · Sep 13, 2022

Other Sheep said:
Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed [is] he that watcheth and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.

P1LGR1M said:
And what happens when He comes as a thief (suddenly and without warning)?
[...]
Why? Because the Body of Christ will have already been raptured.

There's no "Body of Christ" in the Revelation.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed [is] he that watcheth and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.[16] And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Ligurian · Sep 13, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
You would have to show that the dead are not raised in spiritual bodies.

That they are is consistent with the teachings of Christ and the Apostles

Other Sheep said:
Whew... the 12 aren't called Apostles... not by themselves anyway.
Because THAT stuff of yours isn't at all what the 12 Disciples were taught.
Or what the Old Testament teaches.

Drink Wine

Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's Kingdom.

Touch His Wounds

John 20:27 Then saith He to Thomas, reach hither thy finger and behold my hands, and reach hither thy hand and thrust it into My side, and be not faithless but believing.

Physical Presence

Revelation 1:10-17 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, ...[14] His head and His hairs were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were as a flame of fire.[15] And His feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters.[16] And He had in His right hand seven stars: and out of His mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and His countenance was as the sun shineth in His strength.[17] And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. And He laid His right hand upon me...

Clothing and Perfume

Psalms 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of Thy Kingdom is a sceptre of righteousness.[7] Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity: therefore God, Thy God, has anointed thee with the oil of gladness beyond Thy fellows.[8] Myrrh and stacte and cassia are exhaled from Thy garments and out of the ivory palaces,[9] with which kings’ daughters have gladdened Thee for Thine honour. The queen stood by on Thy right hand, clothed in vesture wrought with gold, and arrayed in divers colours.[10] Hear, O daughter and see, and incline thine ear: forget also thy people and thy father’s house,[11] because the King has desired thy beauty, for He is thy Lord.[12] And the daughter of Tyre shall adore Him with gifts, the rich of the people of the land shall supplicate thy favour.

Visible Wounds

Zechariah 13:6-7 And I will say to Him, What are these wounds between Thine hands? and He shall say, Those with which I was wounded in My beloved house.[7] Awake, O sword, against My shepherds, and against the man who is My citizen, saith the Lord Almighty; smite the shepherds, and draw out the sheep, and I will bring Mine hand upon the (ποιμένας) shepherds.LXX

The Son has a physical body after His Resurrection.

P1LGR1M said:
Create false arguments much?

Where did I say the "twelve" Apostles? I said Christ and the Apostles.

That there are twelve is true, and that they are called apostles is true, which makes your statement error:

Mat 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles G652 are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
[...]
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles G652 of the Lamb.

Not sure why you would think this significant. If the inspired Writers called them twelve apostles

(psst, Luke wasn't there.)

I said, "the 12 aren't called Apostles... not by themselves anyway."

Which they weren't.

The translators did ...whatever they decided to do... for whatever reason. Nobody calls them inspired, do they?

Matthew 10:1-2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James [the son] of Zebedee, and John his brother;
Revelation 2:2 I know thy works and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles and are not, and hast found them liars:
Revelation 18:20 Rejoice over her, [thou] heaven, and [ye] holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

apostolos = from apostello; a delegate:--apostle, messenger, he that is sent.
apostello = set apart, i.e. to send out:--put in, send (away, forth, out), set (at liberty).

Matthew 10:5-7 These twelve Ιησους sent forth and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.

Should I be expecting an apology from you
for your "Create false arguments much?" statement?

P1LGR1M said:
And as I said, if we simply stick with what God's Word says then we don't go around making comments like...

Two apologies.

Ligurian · Sep 13, 2022

BOW2me said:
Short answer: NO.

This verse condemns all of mankind to hell due to sin.
(Rom 3:23 KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Praise God for His grace applied to His chosen.

(Eph 1:3 KJV) Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
(Eph 1:4 KJV) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
(Eph 1:5 KJV) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Acts of the Apostles 22:21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles. .Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: .Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, .2 Timothy 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.KJV

Paul's stuff only applies to the gentiles... and maybe the Jews(House of Judah) if they're willing to let Paul be the boss of them.

Doesn't apply to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel who follow the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven, as taught by the Son and given by the Father. This Gospel doesn't have human teachers & pastors because of Matthew 23:8-10.

Ligurian · Sep 13, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
P1LGR1M said: ↑
You would have to show that the dead are not raised in spiritual bodies.

That they are is consistent with the teachings of Christ and the Apostles
-----------------------

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Other Sheep said: ↑
Because THAT stuff of yours isn't at all what the 12 Disciples were taught.
-----------------------

Of course it was:

Matthew 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

And as I said, if we simply stick with what God's Word says then we don't go around making comments like...

-----------------------
Other Sheep said: ↑
Whew... the 12 aren't called Apostles...
-----------------------
-----------------------
Other Sheep said: ↑
Or what the Old Testament teaches.
-----------------------

Sure it does:

[Daniel, KJV]

It won't be the Sheep of the One Fold that holds them in contempt forever, it will be themselves.

Or should we think that we will be contemptuous people in the Eternal State?

"You would have to show that the dead are not raised in spiritual bodies.

That they are is consistent with the teachings of Christ and the Apostles"

That's the part I quoted of your stuff... the 12 Apostles were never taught the spiritual bodies or spiritual israel or imputation or reckoning stuff... that's all Paul.

Luke might have said so (shrug), but Luke wasn't there... so we don't know WHAT eyewitnesses he believed. But gentile-Luke is 26% of the canon.

p.s. Ιησους quotes the LXX, not the KJV.
p.s. A sheep of the fold doesn't have hirelings (John 10:12), and human teachers (Matthew 23:8-10).

P1LGR1M said:
Other Sheep said:

Drink Wine

Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's Kingdom.

Click to expand...

Who will He drink it with?

In context? The Disciples.

Matthew 26:26-28 And as they were eating, Ιησους took bread and blessed it, and brake it and gave it to the Disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is My body.[27] And He took the cup and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it:[28] for this is My blood of the New Covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.[29] But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's Kingdom. (Matthew 28:18-20, John 17:20)

P1LGR1M said:
Other Sheep said: ↑
Touch His Wounds

John 20:27 Then saith He to Thomas, reach hither thy finger and behold my hands, and reach hither thy hand and thrust it into My side, and be not faithless but believing.
-------------------------

Hmm, it seems that the Lord is calling on them to believe.
[...]
You have to avoid the direct Doctrine of Christ Himself to teach a doctrine that is in conflict with the Doctrine of Christ.

That's why I use the Context and the Audience.

P1LGR1M said:
P1LGR1M said: ↑
All of the dead will be raised incorruptible, but the body that they have differs: one will be earthy, one will be heavenly. As one dies in Adam so will they be raised. As one dies in Christ so will they be raised.
--------------------

Other Sheep said: ↑
Physical Presence

Revelation 1:10-17 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, ...[14] His head and His hairs were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were as a flame of fire.[15] And His feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters.[16] And He had in His right hand seven stars: and out of His mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and His countenance was as the sun shineth in His strength.[17] And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. And He laid His right hand upon me...
---------------------

Not sure how you think this changes His teachings to the Twelve Apostles.
[...]
Universal Salvation adherents sure don't like to talk about the Book of Life.

So, you don't remember the context OR what you said that I was REALLY replying to? Well, I'm here to help.

P1LGR1M said:
Other Sheep said: ↑
Clothing and Perfume

Psalms 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of Thy Kingdom is a sceptre of righteousness.[7] Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity: therefore God, Thy God, has anointed thee with the oil of gladness beyond Thy fellows.[8] Myrrh and stacte and cassia are exhaled from Thy garments and out of the ivory palaces,[9] with which kings’ daughters have gladdened Thee for Thine honour. The queen stood by on Thy right hand, clothed in vesture wrought with gold, and arrayed in divers colours.[10] Hear, O daughter and see, and incline thine ear: forget also thy people and thy father’s house,[11] because the King has desired thy beauty, for He is thy Lord.[12] And the daughter of Tyre shall adore Him with gifts, the rich of the people of the land shall supplicate thy favour.
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Let's put the emphasis on a sobering truth:

Hebrews 1:8-9

How exactly are any of the quotes you provide support against clear teachings of Christ, the Apostles, the inspired Writers of God's Word, and the Holy Spirit that was in them?

Tertullian says Barnabas wrote that letter... a Levite from the House of Judah who travelled with Paul the Benjamite from the House of Judah, both from the Divided Kingdom of Solomon. So... your sobering truth isn't mine.

I don't read other people's mail and act on it's contents... and neither should you, IMO.

P1LGR1M said:
Other Sheep said: ↑
Visible Wounds

Zechariah 13:6-7 And I will say to Him, What are these wounds between Thine hands? and He shall say, Those with which I was wounded in My beloved house.[7] Awake, O sword, against My shepherds, and against the man who is My citizen, saith the Lord Almighty; smite the shepherds, and draw out the sheep, and I will bring Mine hand upon the (ποιμένας) shepherds.LXX
Click to expand...
--------------------

So think about that: if He smites the shepherds—could we conclude that they aren't of His Sheep?

We know of a certainty that they are not of the Other Sheep.

Zacharias 11:7-17 And I will tend the flock of slaughter in the land of Chanaan: and I will take for Myself two rods; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Line; and I will tend the flock.[8] And I will cut off three shepherds in one month; and My soul shall grieve over them, for their souls cried out against Me.LXX

Pharisees and Sadducees, and ________?
(Matthew 15:12-14, Matthew 22:32, Matthew 23:29-35)

P1LGR1M · Sep 14, 2022

JulieB67 said:
Just out of curiousity do you yourself personally believe someone like young Jewish Anne Frank will burn in hell for an eternity?

I personally do not have any knowledge of Anne Frank, so I have no idea what she believed.

I can answer this generally, though: it is my belief that God has always judged every man and woman according to their response to the revelation He has provided them. I also think His grace allows for the ability of men and women to understand individually, and will thus judge them according to their capability to understand.

If we understand the Mystery of the Gospel one glaring truth emerges: men and women in the Old Testament were not privy to the Mystery of the Gospel. Not even the disciples were during Christ's earthly ministry to the Lost Sheep of Israel. What this means is that we have an entire Old Testament filled with men and women who did not place specific faith in Jesus Christ as men and women are now commanded to do. They were justified in a temporal context (e.g., Luke 1:5-6; Romans 2:13-15) but died not having been made complete in regard to remission of sin (Hebrews 10:14; Hebrews 11:13; Hebrews 11:38-39). The last sacrifice for sin and remission of sin men like Noah, Abraham, and David would have offered and received would have been the sacrifices of the Law (Hebrews 10:1-4(and sacrifice, like circumcision and tithing preceded the formal Covenant of Law)).

So they were still in need of grace and still in need of their sins being forgiven in an eternal context through Christ (Romans 3:24-26; Hebrews 9:15).

When men died they went to the place of the dead, Hades, which Christ divided between those who had been justified in their lifetimes (like Lazarus) and those who had not (like the rich man). THey waited there until Christ redeemed them.

It is my belief that today Hades still has two compartments, one for the unjust (those who rejected the revelation God provided them) and one for the just. I think men and women are still being justified in the temporal context as the Old Testament Saints were because they are being obedient to the revelation provided to them. We can easily speculate about circumstances where the Gospel is not able to be revealed to men and women today. The womb is the first example: many children are murdered in the womb today (as well as die from natural causes) and never received the opportunity to be enlightened by the Holy Ghost and turn to Christ according to God's will for men and women today. They will, like all men and women outside of Christ (not in Christ, not born again) be judged according to their works, words, and deeds. And their judgment will be just. THey will, like the Old Testament Saints—receive grace.

Another example of speculation would be within religious environments where men and women are indoctrinated into false religions that not only hinder the Ministry of the Comforter but impose the death penalty for being a believer. Within those communities we can, at least for the young (and I think older people as well), see circumstances where there are people who believe in God and seek to be in obedience according to the internal revelation He has always provided to men.

But let me be clear: those who have received the Ministry of the Comforter who have rejected Jesus Christ, His Sacrifice, His Covenant, and the Ministry of the Spirit of Grace (the Comforter, John 16:7-9) will be held accountable for their rejection and will go into Eternal Judgment.

Hebrews 10:26-29 teaches that the unjust of the Age of Grace will be held more accountable and be punished more severely than the unjust of the Age of Law. That is because the Gospel Mystery is being revealed directly to the hearts of men and women in this Age and if one rejects His grace there is no more sacrifice for sin, meaning they have rejected the only way men can be saved in this Age.

Thus we warn every man and woman, and try to be useful to God as Ministers of the New Covenant.

God's brace far exceeds even what we can imagine, and I think there will be a lot of surprised folk in the Eternal State.

but we don't want men and women to die and go into Heaven, we want them to be born again and go to be with the Lord when we die.

Anne Frank? I have no clue. If she received the Gospel and rejected it she remains unjustified in an Eternal Context. How she will stand in the Judgment I would not even venture a guess.

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Sep 14, 2022

Other Sheep said:
Go not into the way of the Gentiles

Matthew 10:5-7 These Twelve Ιησους sent forth and Commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:[6] But go rather to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.[7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the Lost Sheep of the house of Israel.

Paul calls his gospel "Christ crucified". 1 Corinthians 1:23, 1 Corinthians 2:2, Galatians 3:1, etc.

How could that /\ have been taught... way back in Matthew 4:23?

In fact, "christ crucified" was NOT the Gospel Ιησους taught before this:

Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Ιησους to shew unto His Disciples, how that He must go unto Jerusalem and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed and be raised again the third day.

So... from the time of John's baptism, through the Sermon on the Mount, through all the parables/prophecies about what the Pharisees were going to do to the Prophet like unto Moses... a Gospel NOT about the crucifixion was being taught by the Son...

and you're saying it's all the same gospel to you?

Even though Paul never once mentions that woman from Matthew 26:13?
Paul never quotes the Sermon on the Mount... Or the parables...
If he had, then his gospel would not have been "mysteries"...
It would have been well-known to all, waaay BEFORE Paul from Arabia.

There's nothing vicarious about the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven.
Neither imputations, nor reckoning this or spiritual that.
Just straight-up Law-Keeping 101.

It'd be hard to find two things MORE different than These Two Gospels.

STILL incorrect, for two more reasons:

Isaiah 52:5-7 Thus saith the Lord, On account of you My name is continually blasphemed among the gentiles.[6] Therefore shall My people know My name in that day, for I am He that speaks: I am present,[7] as a season of beauty upon the mountains, as the feet of one preaching glad tidings of peace, as one preaching good news: for I will publish thy salvation, saying, O Sion, thy God shall reign.LXX (Deuteronomy 18:18-19, John 12:48-50, John 17:6-8)

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of My God and he shall go no more out. And I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God: New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of Heaven from My God, and My new name.

Isaiah 43:19-21 Behold, I will do new things, which shall presently spring forth, and ye shall know them: and I will make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the dry land.[20] the beasts of the field shall bless Me, the owls and young ostriches; for I have given water in the wilderness and rivers in the dry land, to give drink to My chosen race,[21] My people whom I have preserved to tell forth My praises.LXX

Amos 3:1-2 Hear ye this word, O house of Israel, which the Lord has spoken concerning you, and against the whole family whom I brought up out of the land of Egypt, saying,[2] Only you I knew from out of all the tribes of the earth, therefore will I take vengeance upon you for all your sins.LXX

Not disappeared, nope.

Jeremiah 3:18 In those days the house of Juda shall come together to the house of Israel, and they shall come together from the land of the north, and from all the countries to the land which I caused their fathers to inherit.LXX

Jeremiah 31:27-32 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Juda with the seed of man, and the seed of beast.[28] And it shall come to pass, that as I watched over them, to pull down, and to afflict, so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the Lord.[29] In those days they shall certainly not say, The fathers ate a sour grape, and the children’s teeth were set on edge.[30] But every one shall die in his own sin; and the teeth of him that eats the sour grape shall be set on edge.[31] Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Juda:[32] not according to the Covenant which I made with their fathers in the day when I took hold of their hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, for they abode not in My Covenant and I disregarded them, saith the Lord.[33] For this is My Covenant which I will make with the house of Israel; after those days, saith the Lord, I will surely put My Laws into their mind, and write them on their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people.LXX

Isaiah 43:1-7 And now thus saith the Lord God that made thee O Jacob, and formed thee O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name, thou art Mine.[2] And if thou pass through water I am with thee and the rivers shall not overflow thee, and if thou go through fire thou shalt not be burned, the flame shall not burn thee.[3] For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel that saves thee, I have made Egypt and Ethiopia thy ransom and given Soene for thee.[4] Since thou becamest precious in My sight, thou hast become glorious and I have loved thee: and I will give men for thee and princes for thy life.[5] Fear not, for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and will gather thee from the west.[6] I will say to the north, Bring; and to the south, Keep not back; bring My sons from the land afar off, and My daughters from the ends of the earth;[7] even all who are called by My name. For I have prepared him for My glory, and I have formed him and have made him.LXX

Jeremiah 38:1-6 At that time, saith the Lord, I will be a God to the family of Israel, and they shall be to Me a people.[2] Thus saith the Lord, I found him warm in the wilderness with them that were slain with the sword: go ye and destroy not Israel.[3] The Lord appeared to him from afar, saying, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore have I drawn thee in compassion.[4] For I will build thee and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt yet take thy timbrel and go forth with the party of them that make merry.[5] For ye have planted vineyards on the mountains of Samaria: plant ye, and praise.[6] For it is a day when those that plead on the mountains of Ephraim shall call, saying, Arise ye, and go up to Sion to the Lord your God.

Revelation 3:7-13 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These things saith He that is holy, He that is true, He that hath the key of David, He that openeth and no man shutteth, and shutteth and no man openeth:[8] I know thy works. Behold, I have set before thee an open door and no man can shut it, for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept My word and hast not denied My name.[9] Behold, I will make them of the assembly of Satan: which say they are Jews and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.[10] Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the Earth.[11] Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.[12] Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go no more out. And I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God: New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of Heaven from My God, and My new name.[13] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

I'm not sure what more I can say, which you will just ignore anyway, that would make this discussion profitable.

If you want to believe there are two gospels, okay.

That you cannot understand that the Gospel was veiled in the Old Testament is pretty obvious. It is sad when the Gospel remains a mystery to folk today.

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Sep 14, 2022

Other Sheep said:
There's no "Body of Christ" in the Revelation.

Just because the Church is raptured prior to the Tribulation doesn't mean that the believers in the Tribulation are not born-again believers of the Body of Christ.

There is only one Body, made up of Jew and Gentile. There is neither JEw nor Greek in the Body.

Not only are you creating a false dichotomy of the Gospel of Christ, you create a false dichotomy among believers.

Other Sheep said:
Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed [is] he that watcheth and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.[16] And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Oh, so only those who are good enough will "endure to the end?"

Nonsense:

Revelation 20:4
King James Version

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

All Jews and Gentiles saved in the Tribulation will still be preaching the One Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Do you think they will preach something other than salvation through the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Christ?

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Why do believers keep the commandments of God? See Ezekiel 36:27.

Do you even understand what it means to keep the commandments of God? I have to question that if you think it is keeping the Law. How about the commandment to some Jews about going unto all nations and making disciples? Do you think the Jews of the Tribulation will not do that?

Revelation 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Please define what "the testimony of Jesus" is.

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Sep 14, 2022

Other Sheep said:
(psst, Luke wasn't there.)

He was.

Other Sheep said:
I said, "the 12 aren't called Apostles... not by themselves anyway."

Then you should change it to "The Apostles didn't call themselves apostles" if that is what you mean.

You said the 12 aren't called apostles, and they were.

But you are wrong on both accounts, lol:

Acts 15:23
King James Version

23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

We also see Paul call himself an Apostle often.

Other Sheep said:
Should I be expecting an apology from you
for your "Create false arguments much?" statement?

No, because you do create false arguments.

Still want to argue whether the apostles were called apostles or if they called themselves apostles?

Other Sheep said:
Two apologies.

Accepted.

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Sep 14, 2022

Other Sheep said:
"You would have to show that the dead are not raised in spiritual bodies.

That they are is consistent with the teachings of Christ and the Apostles"

That's the part I quoted of your stuff... the 12 Apostles were never taught the spiritual bodies or spiritual israel or imputation or reckoning stuff... that's all Paul.

Luke might have said so (shrug), but Luke wasn't there... so we don't know WHAT eyewitnesses he believed. But gentile-Luke is 26% of the canon.

p.s. Ιησους quotes the LXX, not the KJV.
p.s. A sheep of the fold doesn't have hirelings (John 10:12), and human teachers (Matthew 23:8-10).

In context? The Disciples.

Matthew 26:26-28 And as they were eating, Ιησους took bread and blessed it, and brake it and gave it to the Disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is My body.[27] And He took the cup and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it:[28] for this is My blood of the New Covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.[29] But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's Kingdom. (Matthew 28:18-20, John 17:20)

That's why I use the Context and the Audience.

So, you don't remember the context OR what you said that I was REALLY replying to? Well, I'm here to help.

Tertullian says Barnabas wrote that letter... a Levite from the House of Judah who travelled with Paul the Benjamite from the House of Judah, both from the Divided Kingdom of Solomon. So... your sobering truth isn't mine.

I don't read other people's mail and act on it's contents... and neither should you, IMO.

Zacharias 11:7-17 And I will tend the flock of slaughter in the land of Chanaan: and I will take for Myself two rods; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Line; and I will tend the flock.[8] And I will cut off three shepherds in one month; and My soul shall grieve over them, for their souls cried out against Me.LXX

Pharisees and Sadducees, and ________?
(Matthew 15:12-14, Matthew 22:32, Matthew 23:29-35)

Like I said, you ignore everything I say.

Let me know when you want someone to talk to, rather than someone to talk at.

God bless.

Ligurian · Sep 15, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
Sure I do. It is the same Gospel that Gentiles would receive as well. There is only One Gospel.
The Gospel of the Kingdom for the House of Israel will eventually be unveiled to them as the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
The "Ten Lost Tribes" myth is, as far as I am concerned, as racist as it is ridiculous.

Other Sheep said:
Go not into the way of the Gentiles

Matthew 10:5-7 These Twelve Ιησους sent forth and Commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:[6] But go rather to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.[7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the Lost Sheep of the house of Israel.

Paul calls his gospel "Christ crucified". 1 Corinthians 1:23, 1 Corinthians 2:2, Galatians 3:1, etc.

How could that /\ have been taught... way back in Matthew 4:23?

In fact, "christ crucified" was NOT the Gospel Ιησους taught before this:

Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Ιησους to shew unto His Disciples, how that He must go unto Jerusalem and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed and be raised again the third day.

So... from the time of John's baptism, through the Sermon on the Mount, through all the parables/prophecies about what the Pharisees were going to do to the Prophet like unto Moses... a Gospel NOT about the crucifixion was being taught by the Son...

and you're saying it's all the same gospel to you?

Even though Paul never once mentions that woman from Matthew 26:13?
Paul never quotes the Sermon on the Mount... Or the parables...
If he had, then his gospel would not have been "mysteries"...
It would have been well-known to all, waaay BEFORE Paul from Arabia.

There's nothing vicarious about the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven.
Neither imputations, nor reckoning this or spiritual that.
Just straight-up Law-Keeping 101.

It'd be hard to find two things MORE different than These Two Gospels.

STILL incorrect, for two more reasons:

Isaiah 52:5-7 Thus saith the Lord, On account of you My name is continually blasphemed among the gentiles.[6] Therefore shall My people know My name in that day, for I am He that speaks: I am present,[7] as a season of beauty upon the mountains, as the feet of one preaching glad tidings of peace, as one preaching good news: for I will publish thy salvation, saying, O Sion, thy God shall reign.LXX (Deuteronomy 18:18-19, John 12:48-50, John 17:6-8)

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of My God and he shall go no more out. And I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God: New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of Heaven from My God, and My new name.

Isaiah 43:19-21 Behold, I will do new things, which shall presently spring forth, and ye shall know them: and I will make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the dry land.[20] the beasts of the field shall bless Me, the owls and young ostriches; for I have given water in the wilderness and rivers in the dry land, to give drink to My chosen race,[21] My people whom I have preserved to tell forth My praises.LXX

Amos 3:1-2 Hear ye this word, O house of Israel, which the Lord has spoken concerning you, and against the whole family whom I brought up out of the land of Egypt, saying,[2] Only you I knew from out of all the tribes of the earth, therefore will I take vengeance upon you for all your sins.LXX

Not disappeared, nope.

Jeremiah 3:18 In those days the house of Juda shall come together to the house of Israel, and they shall come together from the land of the north, and from all the countries to the land which I caused their fathers to inherit.LXX

Jeremiah 31:27-32 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Juda with the seed of man, and the seed of beast.[28] And it shall come to pass, that as I watched over them, to pull down, and to afflict, so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the Lord.[29] In those days they shall certainly not say, The fathers ate a sour grape, and the children’s teeth were set on edge.[30] But every one shall die in his own sin; and the teeth of him that eats the sour grape shall be set on edge.[31] Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Juda:[32] not according to the Covenant which I made with their fathers in the day when I took hold of their hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, for they abode not in My Covenant and I disregarded them, saith the Lord.[33] For this is My Covenant which I will make with the house of Israel; after those days, saith the Lord, I will surely put My Laws into their mind, and write them on their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people.LXX

Isaiah 43:1-7 And now thus saith the Lord God that made thee O Jacob, and formed thee O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name, thou art Mine.[2] And if thou pass through water I am with thee and the rivers shall not overflow thee, and if thou go through fire thou shalt not be burned, the flame shall not burn thee.[3] For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel that saves thee, I have made Egypt and Ethiopia thy ransom and given Soene for thee.[4] Since thou becamest precious in My sight, thou hast become glorious and I have loved thee: and I will give men for thee and princes for thy life.[5] Fear not, for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and will gather thee from the west.[6] I will say to the north, Bring; and to the south, Keep not back; bring My sons from the land afar off, and My daughters from the ends of the earth;[7] even all who are called by My name. For I have prepared him for My glory, and I have formed him and have made him.LXX

Jeremiah 38:1-6 At that time, saith the Lord, I will be a God to the family of Israel, and they shall be to Me a people.[2] Thus saith the Lord, I found him warm in the wilderness with them that were slain with the sword: go ye and destroy not Israel.[3] The Lord appeared to him from afar, saying, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore have I drawn thee in compassion.[4] For I will build thee and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt yet take thy timbrel and go forth with the party of them that make merry.[5] For ye have planted vineyards on the mountains of Samaria: plant ye, and praise.[6] For it is a day when those that plead on the mountains of Ephraim shall call, saying, Arise ye, and go up to Sion to the Lord your God.

Revelation 3:7-13 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These things saith He that is holy, He that is true, He that hath the key of David, He that openeth and no man shutteth, and shutteth and no man openeth:[8] I know thy works. Behold, I have set before thee an open door and no man can shut it, for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept My word and hast not denied My name.[9] Behold, I will make them of the assembly of Satan: which say they are Jews and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.[10] Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the Earth.[11] Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.[12] Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go no more out. And I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God: New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of Heaven from My God, and My new name.[13] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

P1LGR1M said:
I'm not sure what more I can say, which you will just ignore anyway, that would make this discussion profitable.

If you want to believe there are two gospels, okay.

That you cannot understand that the Gospel was veiled in the Old Testament is pretty obvious. It is sad when the Gospel remains a mystery to folk today.

Profitable for whom, the gentiles?

Paul's gospel is called a mystery, in Ephesians 6:19.

But the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven is not at all hidden in the Old Testament, and the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel can see it.

P1LGR1M · Sep 15, 2022

Other Sheep said:
Profitable for whom, the gentiles?

Paul's gospel is called a mystery, in Ephesians 6:19.

But the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven is not at all hidden in the Old Testament, and the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel can see it.

Funny, but the Gospel Paul preached was the same Gospel of those Who witnessed Christ's Resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15
King James Version

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

There is only One Gospel, and that Gospel is for Jew and Gentile.

God bless.

Ligurian · Sep 15, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
And what happens when He comes as a thief (suddenly and without warning)?
1 Thessalonians 5
Why? Because the Body of Christ will have already been raptured. We need to but to back up one chapter to find Paul's teaching on that.

Other Sheep said:
There's no "Body of Christ" in the Revelation.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed [is] he that watcheth and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.[16] And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

P1LGR1M said:
Just because the Church is raptured prior to the Tribulation doesn't mean that the believers in the Tribulation are not born-again believers of the Body of Christ.

There is only one Body, made up of Jew and Gentile. There is neither JEw nor Greek in the Body.

Paul never uses the phrase "born again."
If Paul didn't teach it "unto you", aren't you anathema, in Galatians 1:8?

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"Jews are named after Judah and are primarily descended from it. [...] At first, only the tribe of Judah remained loyal to the House of David, but the tribe of Benjamin soon joined Judah."
Kingdom of Judah - Wikipedia
The Jews, the House of Judah, is not all twelve tribes of Jacob.
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"For the One who was at work in Peter’s apostleship to the circumcised
was also at work in my apostleship to the Gentiles."--Galatians 2:8

Matthew 15:24 He answered, I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Isaiah 52:4-7 captive to Assyria)

Matthew 10:1-7 And when He had called unto [him] His Twelve Disciples, He gave them power [against] unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.[2] Now the names of the Twelve (ἀποστόλων) apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter and Andrew his brother, James [the son] of Zebedee and John his brother,[3] Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the publican, James [the son] of Alphaeus and Lebbaeus whose surname was Thaddaeus,[4] Simon the Canaanite and Judas Iscariot who also betrayed Him.[5] These Twelve Ιησους sent forth and Commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:[6] But go rather to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.[7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Matthew 28:16-20 [18] And Ιησους came and spake unto them, saying, All authority is given unto Me in Heaven and in Earth.[19] Go ye therefore, and disciple all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
[20] teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: (don't go to the Gentiles, go to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel,
Matthew 23:38 your house = the House of Judah)

P1LGR1M said:
Please define what "the testimony of Jesus" is.

(Revelation 22:18-19)

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother and companion in tribulation, and in the Kingdom and patience of Ιησους Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God and for the testimony of Ιησους Christ.
(John 15:26-27, to the 12 Disciples)

Is the Book of Revelation the only place in Scripture teaching eternal torment?

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