Is the Book of Revelation the only place in Scripture teaching eternal torment?

[P1LGR1M]

@P1LGR1M Thank you for your thorough set of posts. My reply will be shorter but can focus on the main issues at hand. My reason for not using the phrase "ceasing to exist" is because something can die without ceasing to exist. For example, a corpse is dead, and yet it exists. However, ceasing to exist is certainly one way to die, and I also understand your point that "death" can be too broad of a term since there are two senses of "death." You made a strong case for this, and I don't plan to deny it. Another passage showing two senses of death is 1 Timothy 5:6, which describes someone as being "dead while she lives" (1 Tim. 5:6, NKJV), which would be contradictory without two senses of "death." Therefore, I concede that there are two senses of "death" in Scripture. Furthermore, instead of using the word "death," which has more than one meaning, to represent my view, I'll use the phrase "becoming no more."

I have to disagree: this is not shorter than my response. Perhaps you meant well when you began and forgot to correct this statement after you were done.



But I am glad you recognize that there are two aspects of "being dead" in Scripture.

And I do not see "becoming no more" as something found in Scripture any more than we see spirits ceasing to exist.

While it is true that when men are dead and spoken of in the temporal realm they "are no more," to use this concept when it has relevance only to the fact that those who die are no more part of the temporal realm thus are no more is no better than trying to use it to support annihilation. It does not convey the spiritual truth we are taught that though men "are no more" in the temporal realm their spirits still exist and have not ceased to exist, and thus are only "no more" in a physical sense.

The question, of course, is what kind of death is the "second death," which awaits the lost? a) Physical death, which involves becoming no more and losing vitality, or b) death in sin, standing guilty before God? In Ephesians 4:9-11, Paul makes the necessary inference that to "ascend" implies a prior descent. Similarly, to imply someone "dies" at some point implies they were not yet dead before that point. Therefore, since the lost are already "dead" in sin, it doesn't make sense to say they "die" while already dead unless they die in a different sense. Therefore, since the lost are already dead in sin, the "second death" more naturally would refer to dying physically a second time.

Sorry, no.

Consider that men are dead though physically alive.

Does this death precede their physical death or not?

So if you try to make physical death the "first death" so you can justify a second physical death—you are completely ignoring that there are two deaths involved.

That would make a physical death after being raised from the dead the third death, lol.

Just think about that a little bit.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Now, of course, Revelation speaks of the devil, etc. suffering eternal torment in Revelation 20:10. It appears you argue that since the devil, beast, and false prophet suffer eternal torment in the lake of fire, which is the second death, therefore lost humanity will also since they also are thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15). Essentially, you're arguing that whatever happens to one person in the lake of fire happens to all, "and if it is everlasting for one it is everlasting for all," right?

The same judgment, yes, but I have been consistent in making it known that I believe there will be differing degrees of punishment.

One example given is seen here:


Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Both the unbelievers under Law (v.28) and the unbelievers of this Age (v.29) will go into the Lake of Fire because they are unbelieving.

But those who reject the more complete Doctrine of Christ (Hebrews 6:1-3) as seen in v.29 will receive greater punishment than those who rejected the Covenant of Law.

Because they have more to be held accountable for.

I view God's judgment to be just and meted out according to the guilt of the individual. This is true for believers as well:


James 3:1
My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.


The "It's just so unfair" argument is philosophy, it isn't Bible Doctrine. God will justly judge and punish unbelievers according to His just and merciful nature.

Now, I actually have no problem with saying that becoming no more is "everlasting," since the second death involves dying without coming back to life. However, there are three problems I see with your reasoning that if one suffers eternal torment, all suffer eternal torment. First, Revelation is a highly symbolic book, so it's difficult to prove something is literally true through Revelation. While I believe we should take most books of the Bible literally, Revelation is an exception to this rule. Assuming you don't believe in a literal beast with seven heads and ten horns, for example (Revelation 13:1), you'd agree with this point, though I can discuss it further in the event you'd disagree. Second, since we're told the image of eternal torment in the lake of fire "is" the second death, what follows the word "is" can be the literal interpretation of the symbolic imagery. For example, in Genesis 41:26-27, we're told seven good cattle "are" seven years of food while the seven thin cattle "are" seven years of famine, which clearly means the cattle represent the literal interpretation of years for food/famine. Therefore, the lake of fire can be symbolic for dying a second time, (i.e., "the second death"), and what I wrote two paragraphs above in this post furnish good reason to understand the second death as physical since, to reiterate, the lost already would be dead spiritually.

And your teaching is ripe with syllogism. You have concluded that the Second Death is a physical death and ignored that there was death for the unbeliever (as well as all men) before physical death takes place.

Secondly, Prophecy has always used symbolism but it has always taught literal truth with the type, figure, parable, etc.

What you are doing is negating the very teachings themselves.

Not only do I believe in a literal beast with seven heads and ten horns, but I believe the literal truth they represent:


Revelation 17:9-14
King James Version

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.


Five are fallen (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece), one is (Rome), and the other is not yet come: the final Empire of the Tribulation.

Seven literal Empires with seven literal kings.

Ten literal rulers that will give their power (support) to the Eighth King who is the Antichrist.

You know what they say you do when you assume, lol.

Therefore, the lake of fire can be symbolic for dying a second time, (i.e., "the second death"), and what I wrote two paragraphs above in this post furnish good reason to understand the second death as physical since, to reiterate, the lost already would be dead spiritually

I don't see "good reason," because you have completely left out the concept of death in man that is relevant to man's eternal destiny: he is dead because he does not have the life Christ came to bestow.

The order of the death man is partaker of are presented like this:

1. Man's death at conception and birth, which is the lack of the Life of Christ;

2. Man's physical death;

3. The Second death.


Which death is the Second Death more closely related to: man's physical death, or his lack of life at conception?

Death is separation, and man is born separated from God. He sins because of that separation from God.

The Second Death is the second separation from God, this time—it is everlasting.

While he is alive he still has hope to gain life which removes the power of the Second Death from him.

Like I said, you need to give this a little more thought. Was man dead first when he was conceived and born without Life? Or did he first die when he physically died?

Which of the two is the first death suffered by men?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Third, just one verse prior, in Revelation 20:14, Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire. If everything thrown into the lake of fire suffers the same fate, do you believe Death and Hades will literally suffer eternal conscious torment, or do you agree the verse uses symbolic imagery, with the literal interpretation being that death ends, becoming no more (c.f. 1 Corinthians 15:26)? Would you agree that Death and Hades become no more rather than suffer eternal conscious torment? If so, then either 1) the lake of fire affects different things differently, or 2) everything thrown into it (including the lost) becomes no more. For these three reasons, I don't find Revelation to prove eternal conscious torment.

Okay, consider those who are punished among men and go to prison: do they all suffer the same fate?

Yes, but they do not all receive the same sentences.

"Death and Hades" is a reference to the people who are dead and in Hades. Hades gives up her "dead." The place Hades is not thrown into the Lake of Fire, the dead of Hades are.

And no, I do not agree that "Death and Hades become no more rather than suffer eternal conscious torment?"

Because it is based on a false premise.

When the dead are cast into the Lake of Fire they will, as Scripture teaches consistently, go into everlasting punishment, torment, separation, and judgment.

Just as the seven heads and ten horns speak of people, so too does "death and Hades."

Would you agree that Death and Hades become no more rather than suffer eternal conscious torment? If so, then either 1) the lake of fire affects different things differently, or 2) everything thrown into it (including the lost) becomes no more. For these three reasons, I don't find Revelation to prove eternal conscious torment.

Option 1) is something I would agree with, because we do see differing degrees of punishment in the teachings concerning Everlasting Judgment.

Why you would not agree with Option 1) and conclude you "don't find" Revelation to prove eternal conscious torment seems to deny you believe the options you present.

As with the imagery of a prison in the temporal realm, it is the same place but those there have differing sentences.

But they are all there.

And I would ask, since the Beast and the Antichrist are taught to be literal men, and the Goats are literal men, and they all go to the same place—the burden falls on you to show they don't all receive the same punishment in relation to the duration.

I can't prove something that is so clearly presented in Scripture, and don't need to.

Where is this "becoming no more" you replace "cease to exist" with in Scripture?

As I said, you need to show where Scripture states spirits cease to exist. You need to show where Scripture states spirits "become no more."

Just saying that's what you believe doesn't do that.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Outside of Revelation, you referenced the teaching that, in hell, the worm does not die and the fire isn't quenched (Mark 9:44-48). However, this passage says nothing about conscious torment, so it doesn't help that position. Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66:24, which is about corpses, not living, conscious beings. Therefore, this passage fits perfectly well with the idea that the lost are literally, physically dead.

No, it speaks of a body that doesn't cease to exist, thus feeds the worm in an everlasting duration.

So it not only helps us but makes it absurd to think the worm does die, or, in your terminology, the "body become no more," or the spirit in Hell "becomes no more."

I do agree that it fits perfectly well with them being dead, lol, because that is what they are.

What you are forgetting is that they are resurrected before they go into this punishment.

They are made physically alive again, but they are still dead.

Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Also, you seemed to say that Matthew 10:28 doesn't teach God can "kill" both body and soul in hell but only "destroy" such in hell.

What I said is clear: the verse doesn't say God will kill both soul and body in Hell.

Men can kill, but after they have killed they can do no more. God, however, can destroy both soul and body in Hell.

That is what is to be feared.

You don't seem to understand that you are trying to teach the exact opposite of what the Word of God states.

You are trying to say God will kill both soul and body in hell and that is not what Scripture teaches.

Find a verse to support it.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

However, the verse uses contrasting parallelism, does it not? "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul [i.e., who can only kill/destroy the first of the two].

You defeat your argument by trying to make it a "contrasting parallelism."

This would demand the second is different from the first, lol.

No parallelism: men can kill the physical body only. End of teaching.

God has the power to destroy, not kill, both body and soul (person) in Hell. End of teaching.

And the end of your reasoning. It has been killed.

But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [i.e., who can kill/destroy both soul and body]" (NKJV).

See what you have done?

You have just added to God's Word to support your belief.

There is no i.e., Who can kill/destroy, there is only Who has the power to destroy both soul and body in Hell.

Will you not admit that you are adding to the Word of God, and in doing so—making it of none effect?


Continued...

 

[Ligurian]

Revelation 20:10 depicts hell in the following manner (NKJV, emphasis mine):

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.​

Also, while it doesn't directly say the torment is eternal, Revelation 14:11 comes close as well (NKJV, emphasis mine):

And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.​

Aside from these two verses in Revelation, do any other Books of the Bible depict eternal torment, or is the symbolic Book of Revelation the only source for eternal torment? If not, it could be difficult to know whether we should interpret these verses literally.

Note: I'm not looking for verses that discuss eternal "punishment" (which is vaguer) or verses that speak of just "torment" without saying such is forever/eternal. Rather, I'm looking specifically for verses that depict torment/torture as being eternal/forever.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth and see the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me: for their worm shall not die and their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be a spectacle to all flesh.

Psalms 55:22-23 Cast thy care upon the Lord, and He shall sustain thee: He shall never suffer the righteous to be moved.[23] But Thou, O God, shalt bring them down to the (φρέαρ) pit of (διαφθοράς) destruction, bloody and crafty men shall not live out half their days; but I will hope in thee, O Lord.

Revelation 9:1-2 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless (φρέαρ) pit.[2] And he opened the bottomless pit, and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Revelation 9:11 And they had a king over them which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. (destroyer)
Revelation 9:14-17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire and of jacinth and brimstone; and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions, and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

_______________________
This is Pelasgian legend, too. All men go to Hades at death, but not everyone goes to Tartarus... aka the pit: the Titans and giants went there, and all the old armies are there (Ezekiel).

 

[P1LGR1M]

This would suggest that the "kill" of the first part is the same as the "destroy" of the second part.

No, it doesn't. lol

If "kill" had been the intent then the word kill is what we would see in the Word of God.

And it isn't.

The fact that two different words are used should draw our attention to what is being said.

Regardless, even if all the verse said was just, "do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear God," then Jesus would still contrast God with "those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul," implying God is not one who "cannot kill the soul."

And it doesn't say any of that, lol.

There is no implication that God cannot kill a soul, because God has killed many souls in the course of Biblical History.

Man is a soul, my friend, he doesn't have a soul. The mythology of a trichotomous nature in man leads to a number of great errors in interpretive efforts.

Annihilation is just one of those.

Do you believe God can "kill the body but cannot kill the soul"?

Of course I do, but how is that relevant to the teaching of Matthew 10:28?

There is no discussion of God killing a soul but destroying both the soul (person) and body in Hell.

If He had intended for men to think those who are cast into Hell were killed He would have used the same word that means kill.

Your reasoning is like unto asking "Can God create a rock so big He can't lift it?"

If so, why does Jesus say we shouldn't fear those who can "kill the body but cannot kill the soul"?

Because after they have killed the body there is no more they can do to the soul (person).

The teaching centers on fearing God WHo can destroy both soul (person) and body in Hell.


Luke 12:4-5
King James Version

4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.

5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.


Notice that it is God that is killing and casting into Hell?

That is the overreaching intent of the teaching.

And it speaks about what takes place after physical death. And nowhere do we see men "killed" in Hell. This completely dismantles your argument.

Or, since it has an ongoing relevance, I should say it destroys your argument. We know it will not cease to exist despite the Biblical Basis to reject it.




Continued...

 

[Ligurian]

God has the power to destroy, not kill, both body and soul (person) in Hell.

Are you sure it's God doing that?
What about the angel of the bottomless pit... whose name is Destroyer?

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Revelation 9:11 And they had a king over them which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is (Ἀβαδδών) Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name (Ἀπολλύων) Apollyon. (destroyer)

 

[P1LGR1M]

Replying to my reference to 1 Timothy 6:13-16, you replied with 1 Corinthians 15:53

And it doesn't seem that the points made there were given any consideration.

If they had you would not be asking me to go through it again.

This is why it is a good idea to talk with people, not at them.

I gave a detailed presentation from Scripture to support my view, and you have responded with a long lecture.

and concluded it's therefore "not a good argument to deny that the spirits of the lost will never cease to exist" (emphasis added). However, isn't 1 Corinthians 15 talking about the saved?

It is written to the saved discussing the resurrection of the dead. It is fairly easy to see what is relevant to those who are saved and what is relevant to the general discussion of the resurrection of the dead:


1 Corinthians 15:42-49
King James Version

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


He doesn't specify the resurrection unto life, or, the resurrection of the redeemed only. We see that there are implications we would think only relevant to the redeemed, but that doesn't change the fact that he is speaking generally of the Resurrection of the dead which is denied by some, which is the entire reason he is speaking about it at all.



45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.


Will not the dead be raised by Christ, the One unto Whom all judgment has been given to?


46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.


Is it not a general truth that we all start out natural? here is the spiritual body of those resurrected from the dead. Or do you want to say that when men are raised from the dead and cast into Hell they don't receive a spiritual body?


47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.


A reference to Adam, and a reference to Christ.

This isn't parallelism either.




48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.


And as is the earthy, that is, as those who are natural—they are earthy. Like Adam.

They are that are heavenly (not spiritual) are heavenly.

This contrasts the earthy with the heavenly. It contrasts the difference in the resurrection, there will be those who are earthy (of Adam, or, like Adam), and there will be those who are heavenly, or in other words—like Christ:


49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.


The "we" is exclusive to those who are raised unto life.

Because it is God that raises the dead, and He gives the "seed" (the corpse) the body He decides:


1 Corinthians 15:35-38
King James Version

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:


37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.


Does this not imply that there are different bodies in the resurrection of the dead?

Do not all men have to die to be made alive again? The seed cannot be made alive unless it dies. But not all seeds will have the same body.

But all that are in Christ will have the same body, that is, they will be made like Christ.

Now, when the dead are raised what will be different between being made alive for those who already have life, and being made alive for those who are dead?

The life itself. And that is outside of the physical nature of the resurrection.

All men die, and all men are made alive again. We can distinguish which of this applies only to the redeemed and which applies to all men in the resurrection of the dead.

So does this teach all men will be raised in spiritual bodies or not?


46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.


Do we exclude the dead from being raised in spiritual bodies or not?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

For example, 1 Corinthians 15:20-23 discusses Christ being firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep, but that resurrection happens with "each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming" (v. 23, emphasis mine).

And where are the dead at His coming?

Are they not in Hades? Are not their bodies recovered (Revelation 20:12-13) and made alive again?

This applies only to those who are in Christ, but the resurrection of the dead applies to all men, for all will be resurrected.

That is what Paul is combatting, the denial of the resurrection of the dead.

I don't see this passage as proving whether or not the "lost" are immortal.

You would have to show that the dead are not raised in spiritual bodies.

That they are is consistent with the teachings of Christ and the Apostles who describe Eternal Judgment in terms of unending duration.

"Immortal" does not lend the dead the life they died lacking. The life they were born without.

You'd have to go elsewhere.

Been there, done that.

However, as you said, although only God is immortal, "we receive eternal life through our union with Him." Therefore, since we obtain immortality only "through our union with Him" what would this imply for those who don't have a union with Him?

Again, you change the terms that are actually used in Scripture, and equate "immortality" with Eternal Life.

Secondly, it might interest you to know that the immortality that only God has is something we will put on when we are raised in spiritual bodies.

Consider:


1 Corinthians 15:53
King James Version

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


This is the aphtharsia that only God has:


1 Timothy 1:17
King James Version

17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.


It is seen here also:


1Co 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, G862 and we shall be changed.


Keep in mind that this is not a rapture passage, it is simply speaking about the resurrection of the dead.

Paul states the dead will be raised incorruptible (translated immortal in 1 Timothy 1:17) and does not say only the redeemed dead will be raised incorruptible.

All of the dead will be raised incorruptible, but the body that they have differs: one will be earthy, one will be heavenly. As one dies in Adam so will they be raised. As one dies in Christ so will they be raised.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Are you sure it's God doing that?

Quite sure, it's right there in the verse you provide:

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Also in the verse I provided above:


Luke 12:4-5
King James Version

4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.

5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

What about the angel of the bottomless pit... whose name is Destroyer?

We are not told to fear Abaddon.

The men Christ taught were not told to fear Abaddon.

All men are told to fear God, because He is the One that has the power to cast into Hell.

A demon in the pit might rule over his minions, and create temporal suffering for men, but that looks to me to be secluded to the Tribulation and the Church of this Age is caught away prior to that event.

So again, yes—I am quite sure.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Revelation 9:11 And they had a king over them which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is (Ἀβαδδών) Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name (Ἀπολλύων) Apollyon. (destroyer)

I agree these statements are true.




God bless.

 

[Ligurian]

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit and go into (ἀπώλειαν) perdition. And they that dwell on the Earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was and is not, and yet is.
apollumi = to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:--destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Strong's Greek: 684. ἀπώλεια (apóleia) -- destruction, loss

Matthew 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in Heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the (ἀπολωλότα) Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.

Isaiah 11:12 And He shall lift up a standard for the nations, and He shall gather the (απολομένους) lost ones of Israel, and He shall gather the (διεσπαρμένους) dispersed of Juda from the four corners of the earth.LXX

Isaiah 27:13 And it shall come to pass in that day that they shall blow the great trumpet, and the ones (απολόμενοι) being lost in the land of the Assyrians shall come, and the ones (απολόμενοι) being lost in Egypt, and shall worship the Lord on the holy mountain in Jerusalem.LXX

 

[BOW2me]

For ever and ever is very clear language, it does not imply that the torment will ever stop.

There are two vital facts about hell.
1/ God is not there.
2/ Jesus endured a discusting degrading death so we do not end up there.
It is clearly an unpleasent place and we know how to avoid going there, end of discussion.

"we know how to avoid going there"

We who?? Does an individual chose to be a child of God or is it God that does the choosing?

(Col 3:12 KJV) Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

(1Th 1:4 KJV) Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

(2Pe 1:10 KJV) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

(1Pe 1:23 KJV) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Can a person chose to be born again to become a child of God?

(1Jo 5:1 KJV) Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

 

[Ligurian]

Are you sure it's God doing that?
What about the angel of the bottomless pit... whose name is Destroyer?

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Revelation 9:11 And they had a king over them which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is (Ἀβαδδών) Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name (Ἀπολλύων) Apollyon. (destroyer)

Quite sure, it's right there in the verse you provide:
[...]
The men Christ taught were not told to fear Abaddon.

All men are told to fear God, because He is the One that has the power to cast into Hell.

A demon in the pit might rule over his minions, and create temporal suffering for men, but that looks to me to be secluded to the Tribulation and the Church of this Age is caught away prior to that event.

So again, yes—I am quite sure.

Unclean spirits and demons were in people. Demons are not failed-angels.
The dragon comes to earth with his angels, as the 3rd woe, in Revelation 12.

God's armies destroy the murderers, Matthew 22:7 (Matthew 21:33-46).
The Lamb's sword, Revelation 2:16 and Revelation 19:11-16, is not steel.

Matthew 24:20-22 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day.[21] For then shall be Great Tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.[22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. ( = the elect are there)

Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed [is] he that watcheth and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.

 

[Ligurian]

"we know how to avoid going there"

We who?? Does an individual chose to be a child of God or is it God that does the choosing?
[...]
Can a person chose to be born again to become a child of God?
[...]

Is it God's fault if you end up in hell?

 

[Ligurian]

You would have to show that the dead are not raised in spiritual bodies.

That they are is consistent with the teachings of Christ and the Apostles who describe Eternal Judgment in terms of unending duration.
[...]
Paul states the dead will be raised incorruptible (translated immortal in 1 Timothy 1:17) and does not say only the redeemed dead will be raised incorruptible.

All of the dead will be raised incorruptible, but the body that they have differs: one will be earthy, one will be heavenly. As one dies in Adam so will they be raised. As one dies in Christ so will they be raised.
.

Whew... the 12 aren't called Apostles... not by themselves anyway.
Because THAT stuff of yours isn't at all what the 12 Disciples were taught.
Or what the Old Testament teaches.

Drink Wine

Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's Kingdom.

Touch His Wounds

John 20:27 Then saith He to Thomas, reach hither thy finger and behold my hands, and reach hither thy hand and thrust it into My side, and be not faithless but believing.

Physical Presence

Revelation 1:10-17 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, ...[14] His head and His hairs were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were as a flame of fire.[15] And His feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters.[16] And He had in His right hand seven stars: and out of His mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and His countenance was as the sun shineth in His strength.[17] And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. And He laid His right hand upon me...

Clothing and Perfume

Psalms 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of Thy Kingdom is a sceptre of righteousness.[7] Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity: therefore God, Thy God, has anointed thee with the oil of gladness beyond Thy fellows.[8] Myrrh and stacte and cassia are exhaled from Thy garments and out of the ivory palaces,[9] with which kings’ daughters have gladdened Thee for Thine honour. The queen stood by on Thy right hand, clothed in vesture wrought with gold, and arrayed in divers colours.[10] Hear, O daughter and see, and incline thine ear: forget also thy people and thy father’s house,[11] because the King has desired thy beauty, for He is thy Lord.[12] And the daughter of Tyre shall adore Him with gifts, the rich of the people of the land shall supplicate thy favour.

Visible Wounds

Zechariah 13:6-7 And I will say to Him, What are these wounds between Thine hands? and He shall say, Those with which I was wounded in My beloved house.[7] Awake, O sword, against My shepherds, and against the man who is My citizen, saith the Lord Almighty; smite the shepherds, and draw out the sheep, and I will bring Mine hand upon the (ποιμένας) shepherds.LXX

The Son has a physical body after His Resurrection.

 

[BOW2me]

Is it God's fault if you end up in hell?

Short answer: NO.

This verse condemns all of mankind to hell due to sin.
(Rom 3:23 KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Praise God for His grace applied to His chosen.

(Eph 1:3 KJV) Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
(Eph 1:4 KJV) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
(Eph 1:5 KJV) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

[Andrewn]

The question is whether "death" in this passage means "becoming no more," which is what the term normally means, or whether the term means "suffering torment." I don't see any usage for torment, but there are passages in abundance where "death" means becoming no more.

- The term "death" does not normally means "becoming no more."

Luk 15:24 for this son of mine was dead (nekros) and is alive again; he was lost (apollymi) and is found!’ And they began to celebrate.

- The Orthodox view is that the first death is the separation of human beings from God, who is the real life, and the second death is the definitive separation of sinners from God that will occur at the 2nd coming of Christ.

- The book of Revelation ends with sinners being separated from God in the LOF and the parables of Lord Jesus about the judgment end the same way.

- There are hints in the writings of the Apostle Paul about God becoming all in all and that sinners bow and praise Christ. But we are not told how exactly this is accomplished.

- You and I, and others, may speculate as to whether the separation of sinners is the ultimate end or whether it represents a post-mortem dynamic process. Will some sinners be pardoned? Will some sinners be annihilated? I have nothing against speculation except for when it is presented as confirmed biblical truth. It should never be taught as fact.

- I repeat for emphasis: the only end that the Bible teaches is a separation. The unwise virgins are standing outside knocking. It seems that that is the endgame. God may have another plan that He has not completely revealed, but this is only speculation.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit and go into (ἀπώλειαν) perdition. And they that dwell on the Earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was and is not, and yet is.
apollumi = to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:--destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Excellent point!

Those that go into perdition will be they who were, , and will not be, and yet are.

apollumi = to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:--destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

These are words used to translate apollymi.

Note that Strong's points out a literal or figurative usage. I think most would agree that a figurative usage is seen in the following:


Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost G622 sheep of the house of Israel.


Did the Lord send the disciples out to people that had ceased to exist? Or to people existing in a state of destruction? A state that death pictures: separation (of the body and spirit Separation of man and God, )? To a people that needed to be found, who needed to be reconciled unto God so they were not lost, not in that state of destruction, but found of God?

Mat 18:11
For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. G622


Did He come to save corpses? Those who were no longer existing? Or people that were separated from God?


Mar 1:24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy G622 us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.


Do these fallen angels think they will be annihilated? If so, why do they speak of torment, and why is it that people who go into that same torment will not be tormented (Mathew 8:29) as they (the failed angels) will be?


Luk 13:3
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall G622 G622


What happened to the Galileans? Did they cease to exist? Or did they simply die physically?


Luk 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose G622 one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, G622 until he find it?


Does the shepherd (or the Good Shepherd) go after destroyed sheep? Shall not the Lost be apollymi just as the people of Israel were, in a state of being lost, which is a state of destruction—yet still in existence?


Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, G622 and is found. And they began to be merry.


What was the state of the son? Destroyed entirely and having ceased to exist?

Or in a state of destruction? Self-inflicted, I might add, just as those who reject Christ, know not God and obey not the Gospel.

Strong's Greek: 684. ἀπώλεια (apóleia) -- destruction, loss

I agree with this part of your post.




Continued...