Michigan library defunded after refusing to censor LGBTQ authors

Ignatius the Kiwi · Aug 17, 2022

essentialsaltes said:
I've had to sign a document saying I'm not a communist. But nobody cared if I was a Nazi.

Was this a conservative organization that asked if you were a communist by chance? When was this? Genuinely curious.

essentialsaltes said:
Not by law. Not by government. Not by the library.

Just their own unpopularity.

When the government mandates public schooling and has a set narrative of understanding WW2, you don't think that's an act of influence by government? Particularly one that reinforces the West's understanding of itself?

BigDaddy4 · Aug 17, 2022

BPPLEE said:
Would you vote to keep funding that library if you had a choice?

Well, to be fair, this was over 10 years ago, so they may have changed their minds and internet filters. And said library is part of a county-wide network of libraries, so if I had a choice to vote on funding, it would affect all libraries in the network. I have occasionally used that location over the years and have not noticed anyone else looking at naked women, but then I don't make an intentional walk by that area either.

essentialsaltes · Aug 17, 2022

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Was this a conservative organization that asked if you were a communist by chance? When was this? Genuinely curious.

I may have misremembered. The clause about communism was removed before my time. But a loyalty oath is required for employment at state universities in California.

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of California against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of California; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties upon which I am about to enter.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Aug 17, 2022

essentialsaltes said:
I may have misremembered. The clause about communism was removed before my time. But a loyalty oath is required for employment at state universities in California.

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of California against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of California; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties upon which I am about to enter.

Sounds pretty based in my opinion and I can understand the reason for why they implemented this. The Soviet Union was still around and there were Communist and Soviet Sympathizers in California.

An oath against Nazism would make little sense to me because at the time Nazism had been crushed militarily and it was relegated to the absolute fringes of society. Not so with Communism which had much more potential influence. I mean, if Germany had won the war and was still around to exert pressure diplomatically, via spies and influence it would make sense to have a vow denying oneself as a National Socialist.

BigDaddy4 · Aug 17, 2022

dzheremi said:
Did you ask them how exactly inappropriate contentography is 'information'? It'd be one thing if this was some kind of philosophical debate or whatever as to whether or not a particular book on their shelves counts as inappropriate contentographic material, but if the guy was just sitting there watching inappropriate content videos or looking at inappropriate content sites...I mean, sure it's 'visual information' in the same way that literally anything a person looks at is, but that obviously doesn't lead to a free-for-all where a person can look at anything and no librarian can do anything about it. I bet if he were looking at that same material but featuring children the librarians would most definitely do something about it (and rightly so, of course). It sounds like they were probably just afraid of getting embroiled in a political controversy or perhaps a lawsuit.

Which, while prudent, is also a bit silly, if you think about it. The purveyors of internet smut know that that's what they're producing, but suddenly because someone wants to get his jollies at the library, everyone needs to pretend that it's fine? I've never been in such a situation in a library (thank God), but I have been on a public bus when an older man decided he wanted to look at inappropriate contentographic magazines he had with him. The poor young lady seated next to him complained to the bus driver, who then stopped the bus and told the gentleman he could either put that stuff away for the duration of the ride, or get off the bus. When he tried to challenge the driver, he was left on the side of the road. Almost as though being dedicated to serving the public does not mean that the public is therefore necessarily free to act on the bus just as they would at home. Would that this common sense approach also prevail at all libraries. (Instead of just some; see the story I linked earlier for an example from Ohio where the 'right' to view inappropriate contentography in public -- including specifically at the library -- was rejected by that state's highest court.)

I didn't really challenge the issue in front of the boys, but we didn't frequent that particular location for a while. At the time, the librarian said he had a filter screen on, so one could only see his screen from a certain angle, and there wasn't anything she could do about it. I think they were afraid of political/legal backlash. I'm just glad he wasn't playing pocket pool at the time.

Viewing inappropriate content in a library setting is not what I would consider "visual information" or in the public's best interest. But I live in the land of CHOP and Defund the Police and a whole bunch of liberal nonsense, so who knows what the rules could be these days?

Belk · Aug 17, 2022

Aldebaran said:
Hillary claimed "it takes a village" to raise children. Therefore, the village should have some say in what children are being exposed to at their expense.

Belk · Aug 17, 2022

BigDaddy4 said:
I didn't really challenge the issue in front of the boys, but we didn't frequent that particular location for a while. At the time, the librarian said he had a filter screen on, so one could only see his screen from a certain angle, and there wasn't anything she could do about it. I think they were afraid of political/legal backlash. I'm just glad he wasn't playing pocket pool at the time.

Viewing inappropriate content in a library setting is not what I would consider "visual information" or in the public's best interest. But I live in the land of CHOP and Defund the Police and a whole bunch of liberal nonsense, so who knows what the rules could be these days?

I though you were on the east side of the State?

BigDaddy4 · Aug 17, 2022

Belk said:
I though you were on the east side of the State?

You must have me mistaken with someone else.

BPPLEE · Aug 17, 2022

Nithavela said:
It most certainly does. In fact, it demands that you kill them.

If you were an Israelite living under Old Testament law. But you would be surprised how many scholars find ways around this

RDKirk · Aug 17, 2022

essentialsaltes said:
Yes. And bible study on Sunday. The libraries cater to the general public.

Which public libraries do that as a library-sponsored event?

Aldebaran · Aug 17, 2022

Belk said:

I take it you disagree?

Belk · Aug 17, 2022

BigDaddy4 said:
You must have me mistaken with someone else.

Huh. Apparently. My apologies.

Larniavc · Aug 17, 2022

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
There are plenty of learned Christians out there who are incredibly knowledgeable

But that is the majority. In general the greater one’s education the more knowledgeable and less religious one is.

essentialsaltes · Aug 17, 2022

RDKirk said:
Which public libraries do that as a library-sponsored event?

You're right that there are differences between library programming and (mere) usage of meeting rooms. But there is nothing against religious programming in libraries and partnering with religious organizations, as long as programming is education rather than proselytizing. Likewise, libraries that display materials from third party groups cannot discriminate against religious groups.

Programming

12. May libraries provide programs with religious themes, or about religious subjects?
Yes, religion is a legitimate focus of programming insofar as it reflects the interests of the library’s community and furthers the library’s mission. The purpose of such an event should be to inform, educate, and entertain rather than to proselytize or promote one set of religious beliefs over other religious beliefs. Libraries should strive to offer programming that reflects the diversity of religious belief or non-belief in their communities and to ensure that there is no perception that the library favors one religious group over another.

13. May libraries collaborate with religious organizations in programs?
Yes. A religious organization should be held to the same standards as any other group that is allowed to participate in a program. As with its own programming, libraries should assure that the programs are informational and do not proselytize, promote, or advance particular religious beliefs or organizations.

Belk · Aug 17, 2022

Aldebaran said:
I take it you disagree?

With the idea the library is required to police your children? Yes. I strongly disagree with that.

BPPLEE · Aug 17, 2022

essentialsaltes said:
I expect there are multiple bibles in every library.

I've read the Bible and I'm not an Israelite living under Old Testament law so I never found that it instructed me to do any harm to homosexuals.

RDKirk · Aug 17, 2022

essentialsaltes said:
You're right that there are differences between library programming and (mere) usage of meeting rooms. But there is nothing against religious programming in libraries and partnering with religious organizations, as long as programming is education rather than proselytizing. Likewise, libraries that display materials from third party groups cannot discriminate against religious groups.

Programming

12. May libraries provide programs with religious themes, or about religious subjects?
Yes, religion is a legitimate focus of programming insofar as it reflects the interests of the library’s community and furthers the library’s mission. The purpose of such an event should be to inform, educate, and entertain rather than to proselytize or promote one set of religious beliefs over other religious beliefs. Libraries should strive to offer programming that reflects the diversity of religious belief or non-belief in their communities and to ensure that there is no perception that the library favors one religious group over another.

13. May libraries collaborate with religious organizations in programs?
Yes. A religious organization should be held to the same standards as any other group that is allowed to participate in a program. As with its own programming, libraries should assure that the programs are informational and do not proselytize, promote, or advance particular religious beliefs or organizations.

Bible study is by definition proselytizing.

Do you know of any library that actually does it?

Aldebaran · Aug 17, 2022

Belk said:
With the idea the library is required to police your children? Yes. I strongly disagree with that.

No, since that wasn't even what I said.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Aug 17, 2022

Larnievc said:
But that is the majority. In general the greater one’s education the more knowledgeable and less religious one is.

I think that says more about the state of education at the moment and what is taught, instead of speaking about the inherent IQ or intelligence of the people attending those institutions (which I think is what you are implying). There are highly intelligent Christians but it doesn't really correlate to anything meaningful in pointing that out. Doesn't it rather demonstrate the ideological dominance of non-belief at this moment in time? Of which I don't care to contest, because yes, non-belief dominates the educational landscape at this moment in time.

Belk · Aug 17, 2022

Aldebaran said:
No, since that wasn't even what I said.

Odd, since that was the last you were responding to.

Michigan library defunded after refusing to censor LGBTQ authors

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