Why the Rapture Is Unneccessary

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rwb

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Only problem is there is no such thing as the "Gentile church".
There is a "time of the gentiles", which only coincides with
blindness upon natural Israel being lifted. Otherwise, the
statement is invalidated by a faulty notion of a GT.
You want to talk about things that aren't in the scriptures,
start there.

Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Minister Monardo, don't you agree that the time of the gentiles is since Paul was ordained an Apostle to the gentiles? When has natural or ethnic Israel ever NOT been blinded? I would argue that only Israel of faith has ever belonged to Israel of God. Since Gentiles too have been grafted into the Israel of faith, it is no longer an ethnic people, but rather the people of God, Christians both Jew and Gentile together who are all Israel that shall be saved.

Romans 11:25 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 11:26 (KJV) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The passage does not say that blindness of natural Israel will be lifted. It says only that when the fullness of the Gentiles come into the same good olive tree of faith with faithful Israelites is how all Israel shall be saved. All Israel, not an ethnic people but people from all nations of the earth of faith.
 
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Mr. M

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Minister Monardo, don't you agree that the time of the gentiles is since Paul was ordained an Apostle to the gentiles?
Yes.
When has natural or ethnic Israel ever NOT been blinded?
All who received the Gospel in the first century had the
veil lifted by receiving the Holy Spirit.

Acts 21:
17 And when we had come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law.
1 Corinthians 3:
15
But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
All Israel, not an ethnic people but people from all nations of the earth of faith.
Paul in Romans 11 is instructing Gentiles to the perpetual nature
of God's covenant with natural Israel. Presently, the church of God/
Israel of God is remnant Jews and elect gentiles. But once the
fullness of the gentiles is complete, all Israel will be saved.
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

Jacob is Jews, never gentiles. The election of grace is reckoned
through Isaac, and includes Jew and gentile, for they are of Promise/ not Mosaic covenant. But God has not permanently
set aside Jacob.

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
 
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JulieB67

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At first, the blindness lifted among the chosen 144,000 Jews listed in the book of Revelation, not the whole of natural Israel.

12,000 from each of the tribes of Israel are listed, not just Judah/Jews. Many of the scattered are Christians today and even back then as well as noted by the book of James which is who he was talking to.
 
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rwb

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Yes.

All who received the Gospel in the first century had the
veil lifted by receiving the Holy Spirit.

Acts 21:
17 And when we had come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law.

Yes, many Jews believed the Gospel of Christ by grace through faith. They are the elect remnant from Israel according to election of grace. They are not ethnic Israel who remain in unbelief, and never foreknown of God. Just as God had reserved seven thousand men who had not bowed to Baal, so too at the time of Paul there is a remnant from Israel who are saved by grace through faith.

Romans 11:1-5 (KJV) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

1 Corinthians 3:
15
But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

This confirms what I am saying. The majority of Israel remain hardened to the Gospel, and only the remnant turns to the Lord through the power of His Word and Spirit.

Paul in Romans 11 is instructing Gentiles to the perpetual nature
of God's covenant with natural Israel.

Paul goes into great detail to prove there is only one Covenant of eternal redemption for both believing Jews and believing Gentiles together. The eternal Covenant of God to save a people for Himself is never limited to ethnic Israel.

Presently, the church of God/
Israel of God is remnant Jews and elect gentiles. But once the
fullness of the gentiles is complete, all Israel will be saved.

How can this be defined as ethnic Israel since Gentiles complete Israel that will be saved? Israel of God is neither of the circumcision nor uncircumcision, but a new creature, Christian. They are the Israel of God that will be saved when the fullness of the Gentiles become saved through the same good olive tree that Jews of faith partake of.

Galatians 6:15-16 (KJV) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

Paul says ungodliness will be turned away from Jacob. Paul stopped speaking of an ethnic people here, but instead relates back to what he has said in Ro 9.

Romans 9:6-13 (KJV) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Jacob signifies the children of the promise. Are the children of promise coming through Jacob limited to ethnic Jews? Not according to Paul. Not only does Paul say that Gentiles too shall be called the children of the living God, but he also says, "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved". Paul does not then contradict himself in Ro 11 by saying all ethnic Israel will be saved. So when we seek to understand the words of Paul in Ro 11, we must refer back to what Paul has already said.

Romans 9:24-33 (KJV) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Jacob is Jews, never gentiles. The election of grace is reckoned
through Isaac, and includes Jew and gentile, for they are of Promise/ not Mosaic covenant. But God has not permanently
set aside Jacob.

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

Jacob, according to Paul is both believing Jew and Gentile of faith together, i.e. Christians. God has set aside NO people. Christ plainly tells us that whosoever believes shall be eternally saved, and it matters not what nation of the earth one comes from. When one hears the Gospel of Christ and by grace through faith believes he/she is of the Root of Jesse, belonging to the good olive tree, and of the seed (Christ) of Jacob, eternally secure and called "the Israel of God" that shall be saved.
 
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Juan777

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12,000 from each of the tribes of Israel are listed, not just Judah/Jews. Many of the scattered are Christians today and even back then as well as noted by the book of James which is who he was talking to.

This is a literal, 144,000 Jews who will be chosen after the Rapture and have a special seal of the Father on their foreheads. They are special Jews who have not defiled themselves with women, where no guile is found in their mouth, and they are faultless before the throne of God. They will evangelize the rest of the natural Jews and the world at large who is recording them. They will certainly be a sight to watch.

Who do you think is going to share the Gospel when the church is gone? It will be these 144,000 special and anointed Jews. There are different tribes represented in Israel today, not just Judah!

Remember, the Northern Kingdom would attract ungodly people from the Tribe of Benjamin and Judah, while the Southern Kingdom would attract godly people from the other 10 Tribes who wanted to serve Jehovah and reject the calf-worship in Dan and Epharim. Do not assume that all the Tribes are blood related since the Kingdoms split and the Northern went to idolatry and the South served the true God. The faithful 10 tribes who migrated to the South will of course still be there and selected among the 144,000 Jews.
 
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Timtofly

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What bothers me the post about a pre-trib rapture is that
it cuts believers off from the greatest blessing offered:

See post #3 for full quote from Rev 20.
Thanks for your thorough response. That's what I'm talking about!!
Lazarus enjoyed that first resurrection, and never died again. The OT redeemed at the Cross enjoyed that first resurrection, and they will never die again. When you arrive in Paradise, you will enjoy the first resurrection as well. No one named in the Lamb's book of life is going to miss that first resurrection. Not sure why any one would worry about a rapture. That is being resurrected in mid air. Paul says all will be changed, not just those on the first day of the Millennium.
 
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Clare73

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The basic premise of the rapture is that the righteous will be taken in deliverance from the Great Tribulation.
NT apostolic teaching presents the rapture after the resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4:14-18).
To believe that is to be
willfully ignorant of the foreshadowing of the Torah.
If the Lord had brought Israel out of Egypt first, then poured
out judgments on Egypt, that would be a type of the rapture.
What actually happened is that God poured out judgments on Egypt with
Israel abiding right in their midst! This is the very picture of deliverance.
He then led them through "the water and the cloud". 1 Corinthians 10:1, 2.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and fire.
Can anyone say Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego?

Isaiah 11:16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

"Highway" out of "Egypt" through water. Out of "Assyria" through fire.
Isaiah 30:33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood;
(fossil fuel= petroleum)
the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Disagree with this entirely because the Gentile church is a specific dispensation and age that was not mentioned in the OT, and the OT deals with Jewish prophecy where Israel is the center of the world.
It's not mentioned in the NT, either. There is no such thing, and never will be such thing, as "the Gentile church".
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Yes.

All who received the Gospel in the first century had the
veil lifted by receiving the Holy Spirit.

Acts 21:
17 And when we had come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law.
1 Corinthians 3:
15
But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Paul in Romans 11 is instructing Gentiles to the perpetual nature
of God's covenant with natural Israel. Presently, the church of God/
Israel of God is remnant Jews and elect gentiles. But once the
fullness of the gentiles is complete, all Israel will be saved.
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
You understand that Paul was quoting an Old Testament prophecy (Isaiah 59:20-21) in Romans 11:26, right? So, Paul was not talking about a future event there, he was talking about an Old Testament prophecy that was already in the process of being fulfilled after the first coming of Christ.

Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Can you see from this passage that Jesus has already been turning away ungodliness from Jacob? Just because many of them rejected Him doesn't make this not true. His intention was to turn all of them away from ungodliness, but He wasn't going to force them to do it. He did His part by dying for their sins and bringing the opportunity for them to have their sins forgiven and to be saved.

It's not the nation of Israel that will all be saved in the future, it's spiritual Israel that is all saved as time goes on right up until the fullness of the Gentiles. The context of Romans 11:26 goes back to Romans 9.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

What Paul pointed out here is that there is an Israel which consists of the spiritual seed of Abraham and they are the children of God. And he pointed out that one's ethnicity or nationality has nothing to do with being part of that Israel. It is that Israel, which many call spiritual Israel, of which all of its people are saved.

With all of that said, I do agree with the point in your OP which has to do with the fact that God can protect us while on the earth even while His wrath is coming down without us having to be taken off of the earth first. And the example of what happened long ago when He protected the Israelites even while sending down His wrath against the Egyptians proves that.
 
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