Why the Rapture Is Unneccessary

Minister Monardo said:

The basic premise of the rapture is that the righteous will be taken
in deliverance from the Great Tribulation.

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That is part of it. The other part is translation of the living into everlasting incorruptible bodies. The dead in Christ resurrected, to also receive everlasting incorruptible bodies. To be taken to heaven to be with the Lord.

Since believers are caught up to be with the Lord (raptured) and changed from mortal to immortal, and corruptible to incorruptible, and I believe Scripture confirms this truth as what will come to pass when Christ returns, how can it be for a thousand literal years since Christ tells us believers live and reign with Christ FOREVER, because as believers we never die?

Thank you but that is not Gods word. See you made the statement "To believe that is to be willfully ignorant of the foreshadowing of the Torah.". That is no where in the word of God OT NT Torah what ever one wishes to call it. You think this you believe it. See caught up will happen because its written. When it will happen man gets no say in.

Israel Egypt one could use what happen to Lot the same way you are doing here. Well first God never told Abraham when to stop asking it was down to 10. If there are 10 righteous He will do nothing. Yet what did God say to Lot? "As long as you are here I can do nothing" Or a tad different "Hurry up! Run to it, for I cannot do anything until you get there.".

OT did everyone have the sweet sweet holy Spirit in them? Nope we believers do. So in Lots day that righteous had to be gone or GODs judgement could not happen I will stop here since it all started with something that is not written just a personal view feeling.

What we can't just skip over is the Church we just don't read about any more in Rev after what Chapter 3? So today there is the Church that has been given all power/authority over the enemy. Now in case we don't know that's every demon ever fallen angel. Seems today for some odd reason (playing) the lawless one can not come out in the open. Seems something on the earth today has more power then he does. Its only when He/it is taken out of the way (not taken from the earth) then and only then does the lawless one come out in the open. What's odd is no believer on the earth has more power authority then the Antichrist who will be given power/authority over all the earth tribe nation. So God will give the Antichrist power authority over God Christ holy Spirit in us?

Its just things I think about. Fact for God to do what is coming I can't be here. There is no place to hide this time. Whats coming as its written OT NT is coming on the whole world and all in it. No where does it say the Church will not be touched. So if caught up is written then it will happen and we really need to get ready since we get no say in when.

Minister Monardo said:

Where does it say that? Eternal life, you betcha. Rule forever?
Rule who? If God is All in All. They rule with Christ for 1000
years, and not all believers, only those who go through
the tribulation rejecting the number and the mark.
Post #3

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Believers begin to rule and reign with Christ as kings and priests the moment we are washed from our sins through the blood of Christ. Just as Christ has glory and dominion for ever and ever, so too we who are in Him also.

Revelation 1:5-6 (KJV) And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Christ and believers are not given dominion over the unbelievers upon the earth. We have glory and dominion over His church on earth. According to John believers are already overcomers, and already possess eternal life through Him.

1 John 5:4-5 (KJV) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Believers rule with Christ on earth during this time symbolized as a thousand years. The church on earth never rules and reigns over unbelievers upon the earth, but rule and reign over Christ's church.

Revelation 5:9-10 (KJV) And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

You have believers ruling and reigning after Christ returns and the Kingdom of heaven complete. But that is when the new heaven and earth come down from heaven, and all things are made new again. Why would there be a need to rule and reign since then there will be no more sin, and no more death?

Minister Monardo said:

The basic premise of the rapture is that the righteous will be taken
in deliverance from the Great Tribulation. To believe that is to be
willfully ignorant of the foreshadowing of the Torah.
If the Lord had brought Israel out of Egypt first, then poured
out judgments on Egypt, that would be a type of the rapture.
What actually happened is that God poured out judgments on Egypt with
Israel abiding right in their midst! This is the very picture of deliverance.
He then led them through "the water and the cloud". 1 Corinthians 10:1, 2.
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and fire.
Can anyone say Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego?

Isaiah 11:16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

"Highway" out of "Egypt" through water. Out of "Assyria" through fire.
Isaiah 30:33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood;
(fossil fuel= petroleum)
the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.

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Absolutely. However, the lack of precedent is debatable with Pretribbers. They point out that Jesus provided a way out of the judgment about to befall Israel in 70 AD. He said, "Pray that you may escape."

What is decisive for me is *doctrine.* When the Holy Spirit causes His Apostles to formulate doctrines, then we know, clearly, what to believe.

In 2 Thes 2, Paul argues against an imminent Rapture, or imminent Coming of Jesus. He argued that unless Antichrist appears 1st, then Christ cannot have come yet because Christ actually comes to *destroy the Antichrist.* That settles it for me.

But yes, your point is spot on regardless!

Minister Monardo said:

Clarify?

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What is the purpose for ruling and reigning with Christ? Is it not for building the Kingdom of heaven as believers proclaim the Gospel unto all the nations of the earth?

Minister Monardo said:

What bothers me the post about a pre-trib rapture is that it cuts believers off from the greatest blessing offered:

See post #3 for full quote from Rev 20.
Thanks for your thorough response. That's what I'm talking about!!

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I fully agree! The rapture is the bodily resurrection and change for believers that comes after the thousand years are finished. Believers are not promised they will be spared great tribulation in this life. Believers are promised they will be spared the wrath of God through the second death. How are believers spared the second death? Through partaking of the first resurrection in life. The first resurrection is not the bodily resurrection believers and in fact all of humanity will partake of when Christ comes again. The first resurrection is what humans MUST have part of in life to overcome the wrath of God that is the second death.

Minister Monardo said:

Exactly. But you said they live and rule forever. I responded,
yes, I agree that we receive the gift of Eternal Life, but to
rule eternally, I asked, rule who? Now you seem to be saying
the same thing. I agree with you also, that we are to reign
in this life, even having authority over spiritual entities. But
this is not the same as the millenial kingdom where the Law
will go forth from Jerusalem and the throne of David.

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You're right! The point I wanted to make is that in this life we rule and reign with Christ during this time likened to a thousand years. Since TIME is not forever to say we rule forever would be error. Why is it necessary for believers to rule and reign with Christ in TIME, likened to a thousand years? What Law will go forth from Jerusalem after Christ has come the second time? Why would this Law be necessary since the Kingdom when Christ returns will be complete?

Blade said:

What we can't just skip over is the Church we just don't read about any more in Rev after what Chapter 3?

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Just because the specific word church is not used does not mean body of Christ will not be in the tribulation.
To one of the churches it specifically states the devil will throw some of them in prison and if they are faithful to death, they will receive a crown of life. That will happen during the tribulation. We see in Revelation that Satan and his are cast down and they have a short time.

Minister Monardo said:

The basic premise of the rapture is that the righteous will be taken
in deliverance from the Great Tribulation. To believe that is to be
willfully ignorant of the foreshadowing of the Torah.
If the Lord had brought Israel out of Egypt first, then poured
out judgments on Egypt, that would be a type of the rapture.
What actually happened is that God poured out judgments on Egypt with
Israel abiding right in their midst! This is the very picture of deliverance.
He then led them through "the water and the cloud". 1 Corinthians 10:1, 2.
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and fire.
Can anyone say Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego?

Isaiah 11:16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

"Highway" out of "Egypt" through water. Out of "Assyria" through fire.
Isaiah 30:33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood;
(fossil fuel= petroleum)
the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.

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Disagree with this entirely because the Gentile church is a specific dispensation and age that was not mentioned in the OT, and the OT deals with Jewish prophecy where Israel is the center of the world.

Revelation 12 deals with the elect out of Israel who will flee the beast, and go into the wilderness for 3.5 years, and while they are supernaturally protected, then these trumpet and vial judgments will be happening but they will be protected by it. Any smart Gentile Christian alive at the time and is able to find this group and hide away with them until that all blows over will also be protected. This wilderness / Petra would literally be the new Goshen of the Tribulation. Remember, when the Israelites were protected by the Egyptian plagues they had a refuge in their land and it did not affect them. You have to find this geographical refuge for the Tribulation. It won't be Goshen this time, it will be Petra, Jordan.

The center of prophecy in Revelation and Daniel is Israel because the church age is over at the time of the Rapture, and the time-lines of Daniel's last 70th week resume as everything centers on Israel. The Gentile church has no prophetic mention during the Tribulation because they are Raptured. You only have Tribulation saints who are converts (whether former blackslidden or too lukewarm Christians that are now sober, or new converts) that are Christians after the Rapture.

Juan777 said:

Disagree with this entirely because the Gentile church is a specific dispensation and age that was not mentioned in the OT, and the OT deals with Jewish prophecy where Israel is the center of the world.

Revelation 12 deals with the elect out of Israel who will flee the beast, and go into the wilderness for 3.5 years, and while they are supernaturally protected, then these trumpet and vial judgments will be happening but they will be protected by it. Any smart Gentile Christian alive at the time and is able to find this group and hide away with them until that all blows over will also be protected. This wilderness / Petra would literally be the new Goshen of the Tribulation. Remember, when the Israelites were protected by the Egyptian plagues they had a refuge in their land and it did not affect them. You have to find this geographical refuge for the Tribulation. It won't be Goshen this time, it will be Petra, Jordan.

The center of prophecy in Revelation and Daniel is Israel because the church age is over at the time of the Rapture, and the time-lines of Daniel's last 70th week resume as everything centers on Israel. The Gentile church has no prophetic mention during the Tribulation because they are Raptured. You only have Tribulation saints who are converts (whether former blackslidden or too lukewarm Christians that are now sober, or new converts) that are Christians after the Rapture.

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All of the prophesy of Revelation is written for the churches.

Revelation 22:16-17 (KJV) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Minister Monardo said:

Only problem is there is no such thing as the "Gentile church".
There is a "time of the gentiles", which only coincides with
blindness upon natural Israel being lifted. Otherwise, the
statement is invalidated by a faulty notion of a GT.
You want to talk about things that aren't in the scriptures,
start there.

Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

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At first, the blindness lifted among the chosen 144,000 Jews listed in the book of Revelation, not the whole of natural Israel. They will be blindness there for them to make a land peace deal with the antichrist who they believe is their Messiah and then get a shock when he invades and defiles the Third Rebuilt Temple, 3.5 Years after they make that deal. The rest of natural Israel should sober up and run to the wilderness having been both ministered to by the Two Witnesses and the 144,000 Jews who are saved and sealed.


Ephesians 3:

3 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

****

This clearly shows there is a dispensation of grace was not revealed in the OT but is not revealed in the NT. This dispensation of grace is also known as the Gentile Church Age -- again its just semantics. It spells it out here that during this dispensation, Gentiles should be fellowheirs of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.

This Church Age is the GAP between Daniel 9:26 & Daniel 9:27 where God's prophetical clock is currently suspended at the 69th week of Daniel's 70 weeks and will resume again to complete the last week at the end of this dispensation which is closed by the Rapture of the church.

2 Thess 2:7:
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

This verse speaks of the end of this dispensation and what is currently holding back the floodgates of hell from overwhelming this planet.