The Trinity

ViaCrucis said:

Like in St. Justin's Dialogue with Trypho and also in the works of Tertullian we see language still in developement, but it's language that ultimately reaches maturity in the 4th century with Athanasius, the Cappadocian Fathers, as well as the Councils of Nicea and Constantinople. By which I mean, for example, there are certainly things that Justin, or Theophilus, etc said that without any more clarification and refinement of language could be taken in a problematically heretical position.

For example, even here in Theophilus of Antioch one could, arguably, claim that "But when God wished to make all that He determined on, He begot His Word, uttered, the first-born of all creation" leans toward Arianism. It doesn't, but an Arian could try to make that argument.

Which is why we actually don't say that the Word is begotten when God determined to create (which could still be argued by the Arian that the Son is a creature, rather than the Uncreated); instead we speak of the eternal generation of the Son, i.e. ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων, "of the Father begotten before all the ages" or "eternally begotten of the Father".

So I'm not criticizing Theophilus, or you or taking issue with anything; only pointing toward the fact that the works of Theophilus et al are helpful here because they show us the trajectory of theological language and reflection that reaches a certain maturity later on. By mature I mean a more technical and clarified language so as to not allow misunderstanding, language that cuts off false ideas like Arianism or Sabellianism as even possible.

-CryptoLutheran

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I think Theophilus is probably the one I used years ago. His description is pretty close to the wording used in the Bible.

Myself, I bridged the gap between Trinitarian and Oneness beliefs long time ago. I think both tend to be overly sensitive. Any discussion of merits on either side is met with hostile suspicion and misunderstanding. I frequented a Oneness church on and off for about 14 years. They weren't modalists and neither was I.

I find that as long as I don't make Trinitarians paranoid (always tempted to, heh heh) they will readily agree on God's Oneness. I wish all issues were as easy as that one.

Apostolics on the other hand are really over the top about it. LOL! I don't try to reason with them anymore. I know there are some modalists out there but aside from that, I don't see what the problem is.

The Trinitarian sez these three are One and the Oneness Apostolic sez no way the One is all three.

??????

Jesus is YHWH said:

Yes Jesus remained a man permanently since the Incarnation forward . He is forever God in the flesh , a man having a human body now glorified.

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I'm not sure if this verse means the same thing to you that it does to me. I say that because of your very 'username' Jesus is YHWH. But that's a whole other discussion.

But as to what you've posted, I'd say I agree....with a caveat.... The Word become the dead FLESH/body of the triune man Jesus in the tomb did not return to life as a "physical body" again. He returned as a "spiritual body" after the assention. The scripture I think supporting this is;

1CO 15:44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul (psuche); the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural (Gr. = soulish)

The last Adam did not become an immortal 'life giving spirit' until AFTER His resurrection. When the Word/spirit was with God He had the authority of God. When the Word gave up "equality with God" to become the "sinful flesh"/body of Jesus, the Word gave up both 'being spirit' and having 'all authority' as God. But scripture says when Jesus was ressurected AFTER dying on the cross he received back being an equal with God in the trinity form of spirit.

PHI 2:6-9 who, though he was in the (spirit) form of God, did not count (spirit form) equality with God as a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the (flesh) form of a (human) servant, being born in the (sinful flesh) likeness of men. 8 And being found in human (flesh) form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name,

This "name above every name" doesn't mean God changed his name from 'the Word' or 'Jesus' to some other name. It means 'the Father' gave Him back the full 'authority name' of the triune godhead. That's when Jesus' flesh body was fully incorporated back into the Trinity again. But this time, as a "spiritual body" after 33 years of giving up that spirit and authority equality with God.

I don't know if you agree with all this, but I hope you can at least follow why I believe what I believe. It's my opinion and it makes more biblical sense to me than anything else I was ever taught.

Your thoughts?

Hillsage said:

I'm not sure if this verse means the same thing to you that it does to me. I say that because of your very 'username' Jesus is YHWH. But that's a whole other discussion.

But as to what you've posted, I'd say I agree....with a caveat.... The Word become the dead FLESH/body of the triune man Jesus in the tomb did not return to life as a "physical body" again. He returned as a "spiritual body" after the assention. The scripture I think supporting this is;

1CO 15:44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul (psuche); the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural (Gr. = soulish)

The last Adam did not become an immortal 'life giving spirit' until AFTER His resurrection. When the Word/spirit was with God He had the authority of God. When the Word gave up "equality with God" to become the "sinful flesh"/body of Jesus, the Word gave up both 'being spirit' and having 'all authority' as God. But scripture says when Jesus was ressurected AFTER dying on the cross he received back being an equal with God in the trinity form of spirit.

PHI 2:6-9 who, though he was in the (spirit) form of God, did not count (spirit form) equality with God as a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the (flesh) form of a (human) servant, being born in the (sinful flesh) likeness of men. 8 And being found in human (flesh) form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name,

This "name above every name" doesn't mean God changed his name from 'the Word' or 'Jesus' to some other name. It means 'the Father' gave Him back the full 'authority name' of the triune godhead. That's when Jesus' flesh body was fully incorporated back into the Trinity again. But this time, as a "spiritual body" after 33 years of giving up that spirit and authority equality with God.

I don't know if you agree with all this, but I hope you can at least follow why I believe what I believe. It's my opinion and it makes more biblical sense to me than anything else I was ever taught.

Your thoughts?

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I`m not going to try and unpack all that but I definitely have some issue with your descriptive that says Jesus' body was sinful flesh. Jesus is the second Adam so He did not have sinful flesh or fallen nature.
It would have been a disqualification if He had I would think.

RickReads said:

I`m not going to try and unpack all that but I definitely have some issue with your descriptive that says Jesus' body was sinful flesh. Jesus is the second Adam so He did not have sinful flesh or fallen nature.
It would have been a disqualification if He had I would think.

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I’ll deal with after the warriors game

RickReads said:

I`m not going to try and unpack all that but I definitely have some issue with your descriptive that says Jesus' body was sinful flesh. Jesus is the second Adam so He did not have sinful flesh or fallen nature.
It would have been a disqualification if He had I would think.

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I understand your opinion, it was once mine. I've just never found a verse to support it.Could you share one? I'll share two, hopefully you can unpack them, and we can discuss.

JOH 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.

ROM 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

Hillsage said:

I understand your opinion, it was once mine. I've just never found a verse to support it.Could you share one? I'll share two, hopefully you can unpack them, and we can discuss.

JOH 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.

ROM 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

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It says likeness of, not was. It's just a resemblance. And Paul is the one who said He is the second Adam so it is not my personal opinion. Will that do?

Hillsage said:

I understand your opinion, it was once mine. I've just never found a verse to support it.Could you share one? I'll share two, hopefully you can unpack them, and we can discuss.

JOH 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.

ROM 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

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In other words, the Eternal Logos became one of us--a human being. He Himself was entirely without sin, and so while He came in the weakness and mortality of our flesh (the "likeness of sinful flesh") He remained without sin. Hence in Hebrews we read that He was tempted in all ways like us, but did not sin (Hebrews 4:15).

This is why the holy fathers who gathered at Chalcedon were emphatic that Jesus Christ, fully God and man in perfect union of His one and undivided Person, was human like us in all ways but without sin. The only difference between Jesus (before His resurrection) and we ourselves is that we are sinners, He was entirely without sin even though He bore the same weakness that we ourselves bear in the flesh. For this reason we confess, as Christians, that though God cannot die, God nevertheless died: God the Son, the Eternally Begotten Son of the Father, true and uncreated God of God became human and suffered and died as a man, and was raised up as a man, glorified, and taken up into the heavens and seated at the right hand of the Father.

Jesus Christ, body, soul, and divinity, is at the right hand of the Father. He who is both God and man in perfect union, God from all eternity as the begotten of the Father; and made man of the Virgin Mary for our salvation remains today and forever the Lord Jesus Christ, the Same yesterday today, and forever.

On the Last Day, when He returns in glory as judge of the living and the dead, every eye shall see Him, the Lord of Glory, in the flesh. For His flesh is forever. If this isn't the case, then the Incarnation means nothing, His death and resurrection don't mean anything.

-CryptoLutheran

RickReads said:

It says likeness of, not was. It's just a resemblance.

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And the bible also says "the word became FLESH" not Jesus. Jesus was a triune man who also had a spirit and a soul along with his 'flesh/body'. Neither of those is "flesh".

And if you need a "was", how about this verse?

PHI 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness/homoioma of men:

So, according to you logic; Jesus was made in the likeness of men but really was not a man with a sinful flesh nature, like us? That doesn't' work for me.

And Paul is the one who said He is the second Adam so it is not my personal opinion. Will that do?

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I believe it is "your personal opinion". Where does Paul say the second Adam never had a sin nature.? Scripture below disagrees....in my personal opinion.

ROM 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like/homoioma to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

So that tells me that the uncorrruptible WORD changed into the "image and likeness" of "corruptible man". Sounds like the same "sinful flesh" likeness or nature I fight.

Rick, I'm not quoting my opinion without bible verses supporting. I'd appreciate the same in return.

Hillsage said:

And the bible also says "the word became FLESH" not Jesus. Jesus was a triune man who also had a spirit and a soul along with his 'flesh/body'. Neither of those is "flesh".

And if you need a "was", how about this verse?

PHI 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness/homoioma of men:

So, according to you logic; Jesus was made in the likeness of men but really was not a man with a sinful flesh nature, like us? That doesn't' work for me.



I believe it is "your personal opinion". Where does Paul say the second Adam never had a sin nature.? Scripture below disagrees....in my personal opinion.

ROM 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like/homoioma to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

So that tells me that the uncorrruptible WORD changed into the "image and likeness" of "corruptible man". Sounds like the same "sinful flesh" likeness or nature I fight.

Rick, I'm not quoting my opinion without bible verses supporting. I'd appreciate the same in return.

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You are adding to my words and you built a strawman to fight with them. I will clarify even though I doubt you will be satisfied.

I said Jesus was the second Adam. Paul said it, I didn't so I don't need to put the verse up unless you are unlearned in the scriptures. His body was the same as Adam's body except he didn't have the corruption caused by Adam's sin. Jesus' inner man is God, He did not have the sinful flesh nature we do. There are scriptures I could put up but I don't feel like looking them up for you because I see this as one of the basics. If Jesus was sinful then He would not have had the purity to take the sins of the world upon Himself.

I think Crypto did a fine job so I will defer to him on any future questions you have. Thxs.

ViaCrucis said:

In other words, the Eternal Logos became one of us--a human being. He Himself was entirely without sin, and so while He came in the weakness and mortality of our flesh (the "likeness of sinful flesh") He remained without sin. Hence in Hebrews we read that He was tempted in all ways like us, but did not sin (Hebrews 4:15).

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You wrote too much to deal with. An adequate response would be even longer than the 'single screen shot' post, that Rick said he wouldn't even "unpack". So let's just start by taking some small bites to deal with.

"eternal Logos" isn't 'bible', but would you agree it was "the Word" just for discussion purposes? If not, tell me why. Next, would you agree that "the Word" gave up his eternal spirit image as "the Word", to become a human 'temporal flesh body' that was capable of dying due to sin?

I am not saying Jesus ever sinned, but only that he was tempted like we were because the 'divine nature' is spirit and the 'sin nature' is flesh. Is that, a problem definition for us?

This is why the holy fathers who gathered at Chalcedon were emphatic that Jesus Christ, fully God and man in perfect union of His one and undivided Person, was human like us in all ways but without sin. The only difference between Jesus (before His resurrection) and we ourselves is that we are sinners, He was entirely without sin even though He bore the same weakness that we ourselves bear in the flesh.

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Joh 4:24 says "God is spirit" that would mean that the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit were all three one spirit. So, would you agree with that thought?

Last, would you agree that 'the Word' gave up "equality with God" as being 'a spirit' when the Word emptied himself of that equality to become "flesh" since "a spirit has not flesh and bones", as Jesus said in Luke 24:39?

So, keep it as brief as you can, please.

harko said:

What is your belief of the trinity that helps you understand the 3 in 1 concept of God.
The Father is not the son , The Son and the Father is not the Holy Spirit, Yet all are one God.
How do you with our limited human knowledge of God get through this one?

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I prefer the archaic modus subsistendi ("modes of being"), which is equivalent to one substance in three subsistences. This should not be confused with the heresy of Sabellianism, a teaching that states God is three modes of a persons.

I think the concept of "personhood" is dangerous, and that we should instead call each member "personalities" in the same sense that Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are personalities of Brahman in Hindu thought. It does NOT reduce them into a mere aspect of God, as some think the Hindu Trimūrti teaches. All three personalities are God, but are distinct in their personal relations with each other and the world.

Jonaitis said:

I prefer the archaic modus subsistendi ("modes of being"), which is equivalent to one substance in three subsistences. This should not be confused with the heresy of Sabellianism, a teaching that states God is three modes of a persons.

I think the concept of "personhood" is dangerous, and that we should instead call each member "personalities" in the same sense that Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are personalities of Brahman in Hindu thought. It does NOT reduce them into a mere aspect of God, as some think the Hindu Trimūrti teaches. All three personalities are God, but are distinct in their personal relations with each other and the world.

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Well said.

ewq1938 said:

Sorry, but Paul never once said anything about a "second Adam". No scripture does.

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You are right about that, always better to post the scripture. I was counting them instead of thinking First and last Adams.

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

@Hillsage My apologies for my mistake.

ewq1938 said:

Sorry, but Paul never once said anything about a "second Adam". No scripture does.

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You are correct Paul mentioned the "last Adam."

Hillsage said:

You wrote too much to deal with. An adequate response would be even longer than the 'single screen shot' post, that Rick said he wouldn't even "unpack". So let's just start by taking some small bites to deal with.

"eternal Logos" isn't 'bible', but would you agree it was "the Word" just for discussion purposes? If not, tell me why. Next, would you agree that "the Word" gave up his eternal spirit image as "the Word", to become a human 'temporal flesh body' that was capable of dying due to sin?

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"In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God." - John 1:1

The Eternal Logos is absolutely in the Bible. And He didn't give up anything. He remained what He always has been: True and very God the Logos.

I am not saying Jesus ever sinned, but only that he was tempted like we were because the 'divine nature' is spirit and the 'sin nature' is flesh. Is that, a problem definition for us?

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He was tempted because He was human, like us. I don't agree with "divine nature is spirit" or with the phrase "sin nature". There's no such thing as a "sin nature", that isn't in Scripture. There is the Divine Nature, or Divine Essence; and there is human nature. In our human nature we are sinful, Jesus was not.

Joh 4:24 says "God is spirit" that would mean that the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit were all three one spirit. So, would you agree with that thought?

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I agree that God is Spirit, because God's Essence is invisible, incorporeal, etc. That's the whole point of why Jesus says this, God is boundless and not constrained to either Mt. Gerizim (the sacred mountain of the Samaritans where the Samaritan temple was found) and the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. The true worshipers of God, therefore, worship God not because of a temple made of stone but worship Him in spirit and in truth (or possibly "in THE Spirit and in truth"). Which gets us to look at other passages, such as our Lord saying His own body is the new Temple, which then has further significance when we read that we as the Church, the Body of Christ, are the Temple of God.

"The Father, Son/Logos, and Holy Spirit are all one spirit" isn't something I'd say. I'd say that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are the same in Being.

Last, would you agree that 'the Word' gave up "equality with God" as being 'a spirit' when the Word emptied himself of that equality to become "flesh" since "a spirit has not flesh and bones", as Jesus said in Luke 24:39?

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Jesus never gave up equality with God the Father. St. Paul in Philippians 2 says that the Lord did not consider equality with God something to exploit, but instead emptied Himself in humility by becoming a slave. In His humble obedience, His humble willing and loving obedience, He never exploited His own Divinity but was obedient even to the point of death on the cross. Our Lord remained a physical bodily human being after His resurrection, which is why He says "a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see I have".

So, keep it as brief as you can, please.

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Okay

-CryptoLutheran

Hillsage said:

I'm not sure if this verse means the same thing to you that it does to me. I say that because of your very 'username' Jesus is YHWH. But that's a whole other discussion.

But as to what you've posted, I'd say I agree....with a caveat.... The Word become the dead FLESH/body of the triune man Jesus in the tomb did not return to life as a "physical body" again. He returned as a "spiritual body" after the assention. The scripture I think supporting this is;

1CO 15:44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul (psuche); the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural (Gr. = soulish)

The last Adam did not become an immortal 'life giving spirit' until AFTER His resurrection. When the Word/spirit was with God He had the authority of God. When the Word gave up "equality with God" to become the "sinful flesh"/body of Jesus, the Word gave up both 'being spirit' and having 'all authority' as God. But scripture says when Jesus was ressurected AFTER dying on the cross he received back being an equal with God in the trinity form of spirit.

PHI 2:6-9 who, though he was in the (spirit) form of God, did not count (spirit form) equality with God as a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the (flesh) form of a (human) servant, being born in the (sinful flesh) likeness of men. 8 And being found in human (flesh) form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name,

This "name above every name" doesn't mean God changed his name from 'the Word' or 'Jesus' to some other name. It means 'the Father' gave Him back the full 'authority name' of the triune godhead. That's when Jesus' flesh body was fully incorporated back into the Trinity again. But this time, as a "spiritual body" after 33 years of giving up that spirit and authority equality with God.

I don't know if you agree with all this, but I hope you can at least follow why I believe what I believe. It's my opinion and it makes more biblical sense to me than anything else I was ever taught.

Your thoughts?

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Without the bodily resurrection which was permanent one has no Savior and you are still dead in your sins according to the Apostle Paul. 1 Corinthians 15:17

Many deny Jesus was Resurrected and Ascended into heaven bodily( a human body with real flesh and bones) and are still dead in their sins even though they might claim to be a christian. That is an oxymoron.

Luke 24:37-43
37 But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. 38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." 40 And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41 While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?" 42 They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; 43 and He took it and ate it before them.

John 20:24-25
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe."

John 20:27-28
27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe." 28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

There is one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. (1Timothy 2:5) post ascension.

Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.(Hebrews 13:5) Changeless, Immutable. Jesus was a man when He walked this earth, when He Ascended and when He will return again at His 2nd Coming.

1 Corinthians 15:1-8
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.

1 Corinthians 15:14-18
14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

2 Corinthians 5:1-10
For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.6 So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. 7 For we live by believing and not by seeing. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are here in this body or away from this body, our goal is to please him.


In Heaven.... Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Look up the meaning of the word soma below, it always means a physical body in relation to anthropos(man).

His Body.....Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Matthew 27:52-53
52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Philippians 3:20-21
And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

1 Corinthians 15:44-45
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15 that if Christ be not risen your faith is in vain and you are still dead in your sins- an unbeliever who is lost. Those who deny the physical bodily resurrection of Jesus such as the JW's who teach that Jesus is now a spirit based being fit into this camp. They deny the resurrection.

If we look at what Paul is saying in this passage, it is that corruptible flesh and blood shall not enter the kingdom. Paul says corruptible does not inherit the incorruptible. Paul is not saying the resurrection body will not have flesh but what he declares is that the resurrected body will not have perishable flesh. Remember in Luke Jesus said see here My hands and feet, touch Me a spirit/ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. Peter, Paul and John all agree that Jesus still had flesh well after His ascension. 1 John being the last of the books of the three Apostles declared that Jesus having come in the flesh and those who deny this are the spirit of antichrist. John makes it clear that the Incarnation was permanent. Jesus is forever both God and man. This is what Paul teaches in the whole 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians. The glorious physical bodies that we will have in the resurrection. We will have incorruptible bodies just as Jesus now has in heaven.

continued :


1 CORINTHIANS 15:50: “Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.”

Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that Jesus could not have risen in His human body of flesh and bones, because Scripture states that “flesh and blood” cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Notice that Jesus did not say that His resurrected body was made of “flesh and blood.” Rather, He said His body was made of “flesh and bone” (Luke 24:39). This is significant because the term “flesh and blood” is often used in Scripture to refer to mortal humanity,in contrast to the imperishable, resurrected body alluded to by the phrase, “flesh and bones.”

Far from claiming that the resurrected human body cannot inherit God’s kingdom, this passage asserts that the mortal, perishable human body (made of flesh and blood) cannot inherit the immortal, imperishable kingdom of God. Indeed as 1 Corinthians 15:53 states, “this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.”

A spiritual body denotes an immortal body. A spiritual body is one that is dominated by the spirit, not one that is devoid of matter. The Greek word pneumatikos means a body that is directed by the spirit as opposed to one under the dominion of the flesh. It is not ruled by the flesh that perishes but by the spirit that endures. (1 Corinthians 15:50-58). A spiritual body does no mean immaterial or invisible but immortal and imperishable. Paul makes these parallels:

Earthly- Heavenly (verse 40)
Perishable- Imperishable (verse 42)
Weak- Powerful(verse 43)
Natural-Supernatural(verse 44)
Mortal- Immortal(verse 53)

The content shows that spiritual (pneumatikos) could be translated supernatural in contrast to natural from the parallels of perishable and imperishable, corruptible and incorruptible. Pneumatikos is translated supernatural in 1 Corinthians 10:4 regarding the supernatural rock that followed them in the wilderness. In the translation spiritual refers to physical objects. In 1 Corinthians 10:45 Paul spoke of the spiritual rock that followed Israel in the wilderness from which they got spiritual drink 1 Corinthians 10:4.But the OT story (Exodus 17,Numbers 20)reveals it was a physical rock from which they got literal water to drink. The actual water they drank from the material rock was produced supernaturally. Further Paul spoke about a spiritual man 1 Corinthians 2:15 he obviously did not mean an invisible, immaterial man with no corporeal body. He was as a matter of fact speaking of a flesh and blood human being whose life is lived by the supernatural power of God, a literal person whose life is Spirit directed. A spiritual man is one who is taught by the Spirit and who receives the things that come from the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 2:13-14). The resurrection body can be called a spiritual body in much the same way we speak of the bible being a spiritual book. Regardless of their spiritual source and power both the resurrection body and the bible are material objects.

Life giving Spirit does not speak of the nature of Christ’s resurrected body but of the divine origin of the resurrection. Jesus physical body came back to life only by the power of God.(Romans 1:4). Paul is speaking about its spiritual source not its physical substance as a material body. If spirit describes the nature of Christ’s resurrected body then Adam with whom He is contrasted must not have a soul since he is described as of the earth, made of dust (verse 47). But the bible clearly says that Adam was a living soul(Genesis 2:7). Christ’s body is called a spiritual body(soma) which always means a physical body when referring to an individual human being. The resurrected body is called spiritual and life giving spirit because its source is in the spiritual realm, not because its substance is immaterial. Christ’s supernatural resurrection body is from heaven as Adams natural body was from the earth. (verse 47). But just as the one from earth has an immaterial soul even so the One from heaven has a material body. Rhodes

hope this helps !!!

@Hillsage

Hillsage said:

If you quote John 1:1 to prove your 'eternal logos' comment, I disagree.
The man Jesus was tempted because THE WORD (spirit nature) became the FLESH (NATURE) which is the SINFUL NATURE, which is in the bible.
EPH 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts (flesh). Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
ROM 7:5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies,(flesh) so that we bore fruit for death.
RSV ROM 7:5 While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
ROM 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh (body), and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Jesus had to condemn that sinful nature which is sinful flesh which the Word became. And the Greek word for "condemn" simply means to 'judge against' something. Jesus did that every time "he was tempted like we ARE", by "the lust of the flesh" body Jesus had.
HEB 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he/JESUS himself likewise partook of the same nature, that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil,
I agree God's essence is 'incorporeal' which means; "not corporeal : having no material body or form." That's why, when the spirit Word gave up the equality of being an "invisible and incorporeal" spirit, He become the visible sinful flesh natured body of Jesus. Then God put a invisible incorporeal divine nature 'spirit of Christ' into that body of "Word became flesh". It was the spirit of Christ which made Jesus the divine son of the Father. And it is that same spirit which makes US children of God.
I agree with you preferring "in THE Spirit and in truth".
PHI 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Unfortunately even the "holy fathers" never knew what spirit that was. KJV and RSV have a correct small "spirit", NAS and NIV have capitalized "Spirit"
I would because 'one spirit' is scriptural.
EPH 2:18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
1CO 6:17* But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.
Unfortunately again, the translators didn't know what 'one spirit' gave Jesus access to the Father and incorrectly capitalized spirit in Ephesians. It was the "spirit of Christ" in Jesus. That was the only spirit Jesus was born with. And it is that same spirit that incorporates us into the body of Christ. But Jesus was born with the Christ spirit and we weren't. We don't get that spirit until our spirit is 'born again' or 'born from above'.
PHI 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
6 who, though he WAS in the 'form/nature' (spirit) of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself, taking the form/nature (flesh) of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in human form/nature (flesh) he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.
Jesus' body WAS in the form of being a spirit in the Godhead. And the Word emptied himself of being spirit and became FLESH and it was AS FLESH he humbled himself and became obedient....not before as you believe. And the only divinity he exploited is the same divinity that our flesh has when our spirit becomes the spirit of Christ in us making us one with the head of the CORPOREAL body of Jesus.
Getting too long again. I really am pressed for time to walk and not just talk this stuff. I spent a 1/2 hour counseling a father with son issues yesterday. Then, my last patient was a LUTHERAN PASTOR whom I have cared and fellowshipped with for 15 years. He hung around and talked for 45 minutes. I even shared some of my discussion with CRYPTO LUTHERAN to him. I asked him what in the world he though CRYPTO even meant. He said; "I don't know, maybe he thinks he's CRYPTONITE and can whip SUPERMAN." I laughed and said; "Maybe he'll tell me and I can just share it with you next time." So?

Click to expand...

I think some folks when they read "Jesus was tempted" they confuse "being confronted with temptation" with "succumbing to temptation." Jesus was "confronted" with temptation but never "succumbed" to it.

Hillsage said:

If you quote John 1:1 to prove your 'eternal logos' comment, I disagree.




The man Jesus was tempted because THE WORD (spirit nature) became the FLESH (NATURE) which is the SINFUL NATURE, which is in the bible.

EPH 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts (flesh). Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.

ROM 7:5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies,(flesh) so that we bore fruit for death.

RSV ROM 7:5 While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.

ROM 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh (body), and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Jesus had to condemn that sinful nature which is sinful flesh which the Word became. And the Greek word for "condemn" simply means to 'judge against' something. Jesus did that every time "he was tempted like we ARE", by "the lust of the flesh" body Jesus had.

HEB 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he/JESUS himself likewise partook of the same nature, that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil,


I agree God's essence is 'incorporeal' which means; "not corporeal : having no material body or form." That's why, when the spirit Word gave up the equality of being an "invisible and incorporeal" spirit, He become the visible sinful flesh natured body of Jesus. Then God put a invisible incorporeal divine nature 'spirit of Christ' into that body of "Word became flesh". It was the spirit of Christ which made Jesus the divine son of the Father. And it is that same spirit which makes US children of God.
I agree with you preferring "in THE Spirit and in truth".

PHI 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Unfortunately even the "holy fathers" never knew what spirit that was. KJV and RSV have a correct small "spirit", NAS and NIV have capitalized "Spirit"


I would because 'one spirit' is scriptural.

EPH 2:18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
1CO 6:17* But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

Unfortunately again, the translators didn't know what 'one spirit' gave Jesus access to the Father and incorrectly capitalized spirit in Ephesians. It was the "spirit of Christ" in Jesus. That was the only spirit Jesus was born with. And it is that same spirit that incorporates us into the body of Christ. But Jesus was born with the Christ spirit and we weren't. We don't get that spirit until our spirit is 'born again' or 'born from above'.


PHI 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
6 who, though he WAS in the 'form/nature' (spirit) of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself, taking the form/nature (flesh) of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in human form/nature (flesh) he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.

Jesus' body WAS in the form of being a spirit in the Godhead. And the Word emptied himself of being spirit and became FLESH and it was AS FLESH he humbled himself and became obedient....not before as you believe. And the only divinity he exploited is the same divinity that our flesh has when our spirit becomes the spirit of Christ in us making us one with the head of the CORPOREAL body of Jesus.


Getting too long again. I really am pressed for time to walk and not just talk this stuff. I spent a 1/2 hour counseling a father with son issues yesterday. Then, my last patient was a LUTHERAN PASTOR whom I have cared and fellowshipped with for 15 years. He hung around and talked for 45 minutes. I even shared some of my discussion with CRYPTO LUTHERAN to him. I asked him what in the world he though CRYPTO even meant. He said; "I don't know, maybe he thinks he's CRYPTONITE and can whip SUPERMAN." I laughed and said; "Maybe he'll tell me and I can just share it with you next time." So?

Click to expand...

The prefix crypto means secret or hidden. Before becoming officially Lutheran I had already largely begun identifying myself as Lutheran because it was solid, biblical theology. Something I hadn't really experienced before in the kinds of Christianity I had been raised with. I had been raised up in a mix of Pentecostal, non-denominational Evangelical, and Baptist traditions through churches, schools, family, and friends. So I was, before officially coming out as Lutheran, a "crypto" Lutheran, a hidden or secret Lutheran. I was worried about being ostricized, as that had been a consistent theme in my life. This was still the case when I first joined Christian Forums back in 2010 where I decided to give myself the name CryptoLutheran on here. Some months or maybe a year later I lost access to the email I had associated with that account on here, and had no means of getting it back--and I also had forgotten my password to my CryptoLutheran account on here. So I decided to make a new account, this one, but I continued to sign my posts off with my old name so to make sure nobody thought I was trying to create a sock puppet account.

I've been signing my posts off for so long like that now that it's just habit. And people still call me variously as Crypto and Via.

I'm a former Evangelical turned secret Lutheran to an out of the closet Lutheran.

-CryptoLutheran