WWJD Did Jesus Pray to Mary?

Psalm 27 · Jun 7, 2022

prodromos said:
He has blessed such intercessory prayer abundantly throughout the history of the Church.

? ?

Psalm 27 · Jun 7, 2022

prodromos said:
So are you claiming that the prayers of the Saints are actually Jesus's prayers, since their righteousness is actually Jesus righteousness?
Do you realise you are actually arguing for the intercessory prayers of the Saints?

Where did Jesus say the thief on the cross would be that day? In the grave? Where are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Are they dead? What does Jesus say?
Do you not understand that it is out of humility that we ask the Saints to pray? Certainly we can ask Christ directly but you seem to forget that God loves the humble. There are many Christians who consider their own prayers to be worthless and so seek the prayers of those whom God has revealed to be righteous. This is obviously pleasing to God as He has blessed such intercessory prayer abundantly throughout the history of the Church.

As I have already stated.

Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a [living] righteous man avails much.
How can we confess our sins to the dead?

timothyu · Jun 7, 2022

Psalm 27 said:
Ive had a few tell mummy on me

Likewise.

prodromos · Jun 7, 2022

Psalm 27 said:
Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a [living] righteous man avails much.

funny that you felt the need to insert "living" into the verse. It has been my argument all along that they are in fact alive. Anyone who is in Christ has already passed through death and is alive in Christ, regardless of whether their body is in the grave or not.

How can we confess our sins to the dead?

No one is suggesting you do.

Jaxxi · Jun 11, 2022

Cis.jd said:
No, Jesus is not used to pray for us because he is God himself. We don't go to Jesus to have a better chance to sway the father. You are implying that the Father has greater authority on what the results of prayer are than the Son or Spirit. They are equal.

A good example of Mary being used for intercession is in the first miracle. Jesus denied the request from the couple at first, because "it was not his time", however he eventually did it because Mary eventually requested it on their behalf.

Mary was sinless. There is no way God would allow his Son to remain and get nurtured in a sinful womb for 9 months. He didn't even want the Arc of the Covenant to be touched by human hands because his Word made Stone was in it, you think he wouldn't care even more about a free sin environment when his Word made Flesh would be contained and biologically formed in there?

Jesus Christ is

Cis.jd said:
The reasoning is flawed.
Why would he instruct to pray to Mary and his disciples when they where all physically alive still?
Why would he say pray to Moses or xyz prophet, he didn't die on the cross yet therefore they weren't in heaven yet.

We see that when he was on the cross and yelled "Eli eli", people passing by thought he was calling to Elijah (the prophet written to be taken to heaven) which shows it was a common practice to invoke saints. The Bible has always advised christians to pray for each other, and it has also said that christians are able to attain eternal life after death, keyword: life, meaning they are still forever alive spirituality and still part of the church. Their service to God does not end after the physical death.

The Bible does not say if she was or she was not, but it is my understanding since countless churches claim Jesus Christ is the only person who lived who knew no sin. Regardless, she is not made a distinct enough person in the Bible to tell us how she died, or anything else about her really. I think many have filled in their own blanks where Mary is concerned. The Bible is pretty silent about her, to be honest. I wish it gave us more to go on, but it doesn't. We do know she did not die a virgin, but that is understandable because the woman was married.

Psalm 27 · Jun 11, 2022

Cis.jd said:
Mary was sinless

Mary was a virgin when she conceived The Son of God, but she still needed a savior.
Mary's song Luke 1
46 And Mary said:
“My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God [Jesus] my Savior..."

Cis.jd · Jun 14, 2022

Psalm 27 said:
Mary was a virgin when she conceived The Son of God, but she still needed a savior.
Mary's song Luke 1
46 And Mary said:
“My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God [Jesus] my Savior..."

Prevention is also a form of saving

Psalm 27 · Jun 16, 2022

Cis.jd said:
Prevention is also a form of saving

Jesus is The Only One Who saves

Cis.jd · Jun 18, 2022

Psalm 27 said:
Jesus is The Only One Who saves

and, your point?

The Liturgist · Jul 12, 2022

prodromos said:
funny that you felt the need to insert "living" into the verse. It has been my argument all along that they are in fact alive. Anyone who is in Christ has already passed through death and is alive in Christ, regardless of whether their body is in the grave or not.

No one is suggesting you do.

This is absolutely the case. I think this is why in Eastern Christianity when someone reaches the end of this part of their life they are said to have reposed.

The Liturgist · Jul 12, 2022

Jaxxi said:
The Bible does not say if she was or she was not, but it is my understanding since countless churches claim Jesus Christ is the only person who lived who knew no sin. Regardless, she is not made a distinct enough person in the Bible to tell us how she died, or anything else about her really. I think many have filled in their own blanks where Mary is concerned. The Bible is pretty silent about her, to be honest.

She is a central figure in the most important books of the Bible, the Holy Gospels. In particular, in the beginning of Matthew 1 and 2, and then Luke 1 and the Wedding Feast at Cana in John, and then at the crucifixion of our Lord where she became the surrogate mother to St. John the Beloved Disciple.

However, I see no evidence that the early church “filled in the blanks” regarding her; this sort of pious fraud did eventually become a thing in Western Christianity with, for example, the Golden Legend, but the early church was very concerned with its history and accuracy and apostolic fidelity, and this remains the case in Eastern Christianity.

The Liturgist · Jul 12, 2022

Jipsah · Dec 20, 2022

adderbolt said:
The Apostle John, the son of Zebedee, and he who Jesus loved. Do we love John? Do we pray to John?

In asking him to pray for us? Of course, why would we not?

Jaxxi said:
If we are to model ourselves after Jesus Christ and imitate His life by doing what He did while He was alive, would praying to Mary be something we would do?

I rather think that our Lord asked His mother to pray for Him, don't you? So why would we not ask her to pray for us? "Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners".

Jipsah · Dec 20, 2022

Hammster said:
Because scripture doesn’t support that notion.

In Revelation 5:8, John sees “twenty-four elders,” along with the “four living creatures,” prostrating themselves “before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” If they are offering the prayers of the Christians on earth, then it’s reasonable to infer that they had knowledge of those prayers.

timothyu · Dec 20, 2022

disciple Clint said:
it would be appropriate for us to do the same.

Interesting how in terms of the people, that parallels Constantine and his mother

Hammster · Dec 21, 2022

Jipsah said:
In Revelation 5:8, John sees “twenty-four elders,” along with the “four living creatures,” prostrating themselves “before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” If they are offering the prayers of the Christians on earth, then it’s reasonable to infer that they had knowledge of those prayers.

Of course they have knowledge. But nothing is said that they acquired the knowledge because someone prayed to them.

Jipsah · Dec 21, 2022

Hammster said:
Of course they have knowledge. But nothing is said that they acquired the knowledge because someone prayed to them.

But you do accept as fact that at least some departed saints are alive and have knowledge of prayers made by earthbound saints. That makes for a decent statting point, IMO.

Hammster · Dec 21, 2022

Jipsah said:
But you do accept as fact that at least some departed saints are alive and have knowledge of prayers made by earthbound saints. That makes for a decent statting point, IMO.

Of course they have knowledge that people pray. I doubt they thought that people stopped praying after they themselves died.

timothyu · Dec 21, 2022

Man praying to man.

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Isaiah 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

bbbbbbb · Dec 22, 2022

Hammster said:
Of course they have knowledge that people pray. I doubt they thought that people stopped praying after they themselves died.

However, it is a great leap to think that they hear all of the innumerable prayers addressed to them simultaneously. In order to do that, they would need to be gods or, at the very least, demi-gods.

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