Preterism, both full & partial, are false.

eclipsenow · Apr 17, 2022

Jeffwhosoever said:
I think I understand but I would like to be sure. Your point is that Jesus is referring to two different events in the Olivet Discourse, intermingled so it takes close attention to discern the two. Preterists only see 70 AD in these verses, and futurists/premillenialists only see the second coming, whereas you suggest both are in view in these 3 Gospel parallel messages, known as the Olivet Discourse. Is this the correct interpretation of your description above, that each school of eschatology only sees one aspect of our Lord's reply, either (1) 70 AD destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem (Preterists) or (2) the coming tribulation and second coming of our Lord, when in reality, both (1) and (2) are being described by Jesus in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, depending on the verse you are reading?

Two / both AD70 and Judgement Day / THAT DAY - that's the Sydney Anglican view.

Although, controversially, where Sydney Anglicans see the division is hotly debated. As I have been trying to show above, the "Stars falling" / Son of Man going before the Father / Fig tree generation is about Jesus victorious return to God after the Gospel events, and the disciples being reminded that this is OT judgement language being applied to JERUSALEM and the TEMPLE - and the way these OT verses are quoted together - they are to remember Jesus reigns from heaven when they see the temple destroyed.

Jeffwhosoever · Apr 17, 2022

eclipsenow said:
Two / both AD70 and Judgement Day / THAT DAY - that's the Sydney Anglican view.

Although, controversially, where Sydney Anglicans see the division is hotly debated. As I have been trying to show above, the "Stars falling" / Son of Man going before the Father / Fig tree generation is about Jesus victorious return to God after the Gospel events, and the disciples being reminded that this is OT judgement language being applied to JERUSALEM and the TEMPLE - and the way these OT verses are quoted together - they are to remember Jesus reigns from heaven when they see the temple destroyed.

I'll have to go back through the Olivet Discourse then after we finish our study of Revelation and examine it verse by verse in all 3 Gospels. "Fig tree generation" is one special focus since many of us Futurists think that means the final generation before the return of Christ, which I'm estimating is possibly between 2030-2033 AD. Assuming Putin does not hit the nuclear button before then, in which case all bets on the end time are off!

If you don't mind sharing, what is your eschatological view as far as the rapture and millenium?

robycop3 · Apr 17, 2022

eclipsenow said:
The problem is you're not appreciating the Hebrew hyperbole for this event. As I have said above, we've got to come to this event with the OT in mind. Use the clearer events to guide the less clear.

Let's just focus on the sun moon and stars for a moment.

MATTHEW 24: “Immediately after the distress of those days“ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’”

= This sounds like the end of the world. But in the Old Testament this is the image used to describe a kingdom being burned to the ground.

Isaiah 13: "See, the day of the Lord is coming—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger— to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.”

= Isaiah writes a prophecy against Babylon where God brings Medes and Persians to strike down Babylon. But, typical of Hebrew hyperbolic symbolism - listen to this language!

Isaiah 34: “All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.”

= is a more universal judgment against all God's enemies - the picture of Edom. It has more graphic and physical battle language mixed in with the stars falling.

Joel 2: “Before them the earth shakes, the heavens tremble, the sun and moon are darkened, and the stars no longer shine.” = describes a vast army of the Lord bringing justice - and uses similar language.

Jesus wasn't using hype. There'll be a cosmic catastrophe immediately before He returns. The "powers of the heavens" are the apparent motions of the heavenly bodies in the sky, caused by the earth's movements, so apparently, that'll be disturbed.

claninja · Apr 17, 2022

robycop3 said:
Jesus wasn't using hype. There'll be a cosmic catastrophe immediately before He returns. The "powers of the heavens" are the apparent motions of the heavenly bodies in the sky, caused by the earth's movements, so apparently, that'll be disturbed.

Jeremiah 10:1-2 1Hear the word that the LORD speaks to you, O house of Israel. 2Thus says the LORD:“Learn not the way of the nations, nor be dismayed at the signs of the heavens
because the nations are dismayed at them,

eclipsenow · Apr 17, 2022

Jeffwhosoever said:
I'll have to go back through the Olivet Discourse then after we finish our study of Revelation and examine it verse by verse in all 3 Gospels. "Fig tree generation" is one special focus since many of us Futurists think that means the final generation before the return of Christ, which I'm estimating is possibly between 2030-2033 AD. Assuming Putin does not hit the nuclear button before then, in which case all bets on the end time are off!

If you don't mind sharing, what is your eschatological view as far as the rapture and millenium?

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God."
= The millennium is about the safety of the martyred Christians in heaven. 1000 in the OT regarding time and theology is always symbolic. The martyrs remain dead. They only 'came back to life' in the sense that they are safe in heaven. They came back to life, rather going into the second death - hell.

"Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders."
= They're before the same HEAVENLY THRONES we saw spelled out clearly in Chapter 4. Word studies show thrones in the NT are often heavenly. How does John start the Millennium? Mentioning those same thrones! This is heaven, not the earth.
"Thrones" in Revelation
"They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands."
Faithful Christians are safe in heaven - not marked on the head and hand by their worship of worldly systems. (The OT shema prayer of dedication saw Israelites praying with inscriptions on their right hand and forehead.)

It's a picture of their safety and reign until they are resurrected in real as heaven and earth are reunited and they receive new bodies in a new material universe. They are not RESURRECTED like everyone will be on the Last Day. They 'came to life' in the presence of the Lord.

Note that the chapter says nothing about the Lord Jesus leaving the throne room of heaven or the elders. The Martyrs are still there! They're ruling from there. They reign with him for the 'gazillion' years. They're reigning right now. Right now is the 1000 or 'gazillion' years between Jesus Resurrection and his Return.

And in that Return, everything happens at once. It's the 'Rapture' - and image of us going 'up' like Noah in the Ark to the place of safety while Judgement is dealt out 'below.' It's the full and permanent Return of the Lord, when he introduces the New Heavens and New Earth and New Age, with no more death or tears. And it's for all who trusted in the Lord and Saviour, even an Aussie slob like myself. Amazing!

sovereigngrace · Apr 17, 2022

Jeffwhosoever said:
I think I understand but I would like to be sure. Your point is that Jesus is referring to two different events in the Olivet Discourse, intermingled so it takes close attention to discern the two. Preterists only see 70 AD in these verses, and futurists/premillenialists only see the second coming, whereas you suggest both are in view in these 3 Gospel parallel messages, known as the Olivet Discourse. Is this the correct interpretation of your description above, that each school of eschatology only sees one aspect of our Lord's reply, either (1) 70 AD destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem (Preterists) or (2) the coming tribulation and second coming of our Lord, when in reality, both (1) and (2) are being described by Jesus in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, depending on the verse you are reading?

Yes. Indeed.

Ed Parenteau · Apr 17, 2022

sovereigngrace said:
Acts 1:10 says, “while they (the disciples) beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

The 11 disciples were direct material witnesses to the ascension of Jesus Christ up from the earth toward heaven. This passage tells us it is the actual “manner” or tropos (meaning style or mode) of His glorious ascent into heaven that will be the way He will return. How did He go?

Literally, physically, visibly.

•Physically: “This same Jesus.”
•Visibly: “while they beheld,” “they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up” and “as ye have seen Him go.”
•Literally: “In like manner.”

Contrary to Pretrib and Preterist beliefs, the second coming of Christ is not a secret event. Such a mistaken view emanates from a wrong understanding of Scripture. Revelation 1:7 declares: “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him” (Revelation 1:7).

Did every eye see Jesus coming back in AD70? Of course not! That is absurd!

Upon His appearing, did the Jews wail over Him? Of course not! That is absurd! Equally, did the Gentiles also wail because of him? Of course not! That is absurd!

Here we see the most public event of all time - the literal, visible, physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ. This passage unmistakably shows that the glorious Second Advent will be the most amazing public event ever. To such an extent that “every eye shall see him.”

This passage unmistakably shows that the glorious Second Advent will be the most amazing public event ever. To such an extent that “every eye shall see him.” The swiftness of Christ’s coming and the speed of the rescue of the saints precludes any possibility of the wicked repenting.

Jesus warned in Matthew 24:23-27: "Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

Christ's coming shall be sudden as lightning. What is more sudden and spectacular than lightning? Lightning is not hid! It can be seen by all across the sky. This is no secret snatch in this text.

Jesus tells us in Matthew 26:64: “Hereafter shall ye the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”

This is repeated in Mark 14:62: “ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”

Jesus said in Luke 21:26–27: “for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”

This is the end of the age. It is the end of the world. He is coming visibly and powerfully to glorify the elect and this corrupt earth when He comes.

You didn't explain how the Sanhedrin would see Him after they're dead.
Since "all humanity" saw His glorious 1st coming, what leads you to believe the same can't see His second coming?

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Luke 3 quoting Isaiah BSB
4as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet:
“A voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for Him.5Every valley shall be filled in,
and every mountain and hill made low.
The crooked ways shall be made straight,
and the rough ways smooth.6And all humanity will see God’s salvation.’ ”

Isaiah 40:
3A voice of one calling:
“Prepare the way for the LORD in the wilderness;
make a straight highway for our God in the desert. 4Every valley shall be lifted up,
and every mountain and hill made low;
the uneven ground will become smooth,
and the rugged land a plain. 5And the glory of the LORD will be revealed,
and all humanity together will see it.

sovereigngrace · Apr 17, 2022

Ed Parenteau said:
You didn't explain how the Sanhedrin would see Him after they're dead.
Since "all humanity" saw His glorious 1st coming, what leads you to believe the same can't see His second coming?

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Luke 3 quoting Isaiah BSB
4as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet:
“A voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for Him.5Every valley shall be filled in,
and every mountain and hill made low.
The crooked ways shall be made straight,
and the rough ways smooth.6And all humanity will see God’s salvation.’ ”

Isaiah 40:
3A voice of one calling:
“Prepare the way for the LORD in the wilderness;
make a straight highway for our God in the desert. 4Every valley shall be lifted up,
and every mountain and hill made low;
the uneven ground will become smooth,
and the rugged land a plain. 5And the glory of the LORD will be revealed,
and all humanity together will see it.

Why are Pretersist obsessed with applying all Scripture pertaining to the First and Second Advents to AD70. This is so unbiblical and so wrong!

robycop3 · Apr 17, 2022

Ed Parenteau said:
You didn't explain how the Sanhedrin would see Him after they're dead.
Since "all humanity" saw His glorious 1st coming, what leads you to believe the same can't see His second coming?

Same as "those who pierced Him"-they'll see His return from hades.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Luke 3 quoting Isaiah BSB
4as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet:
“A voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for Him.5Every valley shall be filled in,
and every mountain and hill made low.
The crooked ways shall be made straight,
and the rough ways smooth.6And all humanity will see God’s salvation.’ ”

Isaiah 40:
3A voice of one calling:
“Prepare the way for the LORD in the wilderness;
make a straight highway for our God in the desert. 4Every valley shall be lifted up,
and every mountain and hill made low;
the uneven ground will become smooth,
and the rugged land a plain. 5And the glory of the LORD will be revealed,
and all humanity together will see it.

"All humanity" did NOT see His first coming. Only a few thousand in the Judea area saw Him then.

3 Resurrections · Apr 17, 2022

robycop3 said:
"All humanity" did NOT see His first coming. Only a few thousand in the Judea area saw Him then.

This statement of yours is only confirming the point EP is making. The same "all humanity" who saw Christ's first coming is comparable to the "every eye" seeing His second coming; namely, "those who pierced Him". And as you said, those who literally put Christ to death saw Christ's return to the Mount of Olives from Hades - which we are told in Revelation 20:14 was to be thrown into the "Lake of Fire" - which was in Jerusalem, (the location for Matthew 13:42's "furnace of fire", according to Isaiah 31:9).

eclipsenow · Apr 17, 2022

robycop3 said:
Jesus wasn't using hype. There'll be a cosmic catastrophe immediately before He returns. The "powers of the heavens" are the apparent motions of the heavenly bodies in the sky, caused by the earth's movements, so apparently, that'll be disturbed.

So are you saying Jesus didn't know how to quote the Old Testament? :scratch:

He used language similar to that of national warfare and disaster in the Old Testament "Day of the Lord" series of prophecies that were mostly about the punishment by warfare of OT empires in their day.

Isaiah 13: "See, the day of the Lord is coming—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger— to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.”

= Isaiah writes a prophecy against Babylon where God brings Medes and Persians to strike down Babylon. But, typical of Hebrew hyperbolic symbolism - listen to this language!

Isaiah 34: “All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.”

= is a more universal judgment against all God's enemies - the picture of Edom. It has more graphic and physical battle language mixed in with the stars falling.

Joel 2: “Before them the earth shakes, the heavens tremble, the sun and moon are darkened, and the stars no longer shine.”

= describes a vast army of the Lord bringing justice - and uses similar language.

Jesus was answering their question about the end of the temple, and the end of the temple era. I think that deserves a little bit more explanation than a few terse lines. He appears to be quoting OT verses of judgement on God's enemies to Jerusalem and the temple itself!

eclipsenow · Apr 17, 2022

sovereigngrace said:
Why are Pretersist obsessed with applying all Scripture pertaining to the First and Second Advents to AD70. This is so unbiblical and so wrong!

I agree - which is why I'm a partial preterist.

Ed Parenteau · Apr 17, 2022

sovereigngrace said:
Why are Pretersist obsessed with applying all Scripture pertaining to the First and Second Advents to AD70. This is so unbiblical and so wrong!

I'll ask you the same question I asked Robocop. And what would Jesus have to say to get you to believe He was coming soon? If you don't believe what He said in the following, then who are you going to believe?
Revelation 1:
1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

Revelation 2:
24But I say to the rest of you in Thyatira,.....25Nevertheless, hold fast to what you have until I come.

Revelation 3:
10Because you have kept My command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold fast to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

Revelation 22:
7“Behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of prophecy in this book.”
10Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is near. 11Let the unrighteous continue to be unrighteous, and the vile continue to be vile; let the righteous continue to practice righteousness, and the holy continue to be holy.”
12“Behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done.
20He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

sovereigngrace · Apr 17, 2022

Ed Parenteau said:
I'll ask you the same question I asked Robocop. And what would Jesus have to say to get you to believe He was coming soon? If you don't believe what He said in the following, then who are you going to believe?
Revelation 1:
1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

Revelation 2:
24But I say to the rest of you in Thyatira,.....25Nevertheless, hold fast to what you have until I come.

Revelation 3:
10Because you have kept My command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold fast to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

Revelation 22:
7“Behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of prophecy in this book.”
10Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is near. 11Let the unrighteous continue to be unrighteous, and the vile continue to be vile; let the righteous continue to practice righteousness, and the holy continue to be holy.”
12“Behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done.
20He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

The major problem we have with understanding what God says is that we try to comprehend His great eternal promises from a limited earthly perspective. In doing this, we misconstrue God, show an ignorance of His eternal viewpoint and put Him into a box. The fact is, God’s vantage point is a lot superior and better informed than ours. He lives outside of time. He sees things from an eternal perspective.

God is also more than able to be His own interpreter and give His own opinion in regard to the fulfilment of prophetic events. Text, context and co-text all come into play to explain the meaning of His own prophecies, who they relate to, how they will be fulfilled and when they occur.

Preterists make much of phrases like "soon," “at hand,” “quickly,” “shortly” or “near.” They use these to support their belief that Jesus has already come, the last day has already occurred and that we are now living in the new heavens and new earth.

The mistake they make is that they always interpret these from man’s standpoint and thus get confused as to their meaning. Of course, from man’s outlook these terms would normally suggest that something is just around the corner. But such terms are totally relative. We should always remember, the Bible speaks in God’s time. God’s near, quickly or shortly are completely different from man’s perspective. God’s soon is not always our soon. Our knowledge of biblical truth, our awareness of the context in question, a study of the meaning and usage of the original Greek words, and our ascertaining whether something is being explained from man’s finite viewpoint or God’s eternal perspective, aid us in understanding the time and event in view.

On this matter, a basic understanding of “time” and “eternity” will explain what we are looking at in Scripture. The phrase “at hand” or “near” is taken from the single Greek word eggizō, and simply means “approaches.” It is not time-specific. It can mean immediate or distant future, like our English word. In fact, it carries the exact same sense as our English word. It carries a broad meaning and does not in any way demand an imminent fulfilment. Other words like "soon," “quickly,” “shortly” and “near,” express time from God’s eternal standpoint, not man’s natural position. It is therefore wrong to force our dim earthly sense of time upon God. It is definitely foolish to build a whole theology upon that.

Ed Parenteau · Apr 17, 2022

sovereigngrace said:
The major problem we have with understanding what God says is that we try to comprehend His great eternal promises from a limited earthly perspective. In doing this, we misconstrue God, show an ignorance of His eternal viewpoint and put Him into a box. The fact is, God’s vantage point is a lot superior and better informed than ours. He lives outside of time. He sees things from an eternal perspective.

God is also more than able to be His own interpreter and give His own opinion in regard to the fulfilment of prophetic events. Text, context and co-text all come into play to explain the meaning of His own prophecies, who they relate to, how they will be fulfilled and when they occur.

Preterists make much of phrases like "soon," “at hand,” “quickly,” “shortly” or “near.” They use these to support their belief that Jesus has already come, the last day has already occurred and that we are now living in the new heavens and new earth.

The mistake they make is that they always interpret these from man’s standpoint and thus get confused as to their meaning. Of course, from man’s outlook these terms would normally suggest that something is just around the corner. But such terms are totally relative. We should always remember, the Bible speaks in God’s time. God’s near, quickly or shortly are completely different from man’s perspective. God’s soon is not always our soon. Our knowledge of biblical truth, our awareness of the context in question, a study of the meaning and usage of the original Greek words, and our ascertaining whether something is being explained from man’s finite viewpoint or God’s eternal perspective, aid us in understanding the time and event in view.

On this matter, a basic understanding of “time” and “eternity” will explain what we are looking at in Scripture. The phrase “at hand” or “near” is taken from the single Greek word eggizō, and simply means “approaches.” It is not time-specific. It can mean immediate or distant future, like our English word. In fact, it carries the exact same sense as our English word. It carries a broad meaning and does not in any way demand an imminent fulfilment. Other words like "soon," “quickly,” “shortly” and “near,” express time from God’s eternal standpoint, not man’s natural position. It is therefore wrong to force our dim earthly sense of time upon God. It is definitely foolish to build a whole theology upon that.

Your saying God gave man scripture that was impossible to understand. I'll never believe that. Honestly, who made that up? Jesus condemned the Pharisees for "nullifying the word of God by their traditions". And besides 2 of those were not just time statements, They were promises directed to people in churches alive at that time, telling them to "hold fast" for He was coming quickly.

sovereigngrace · Apr 18, 2022

Ed Parenteau said:
Your saying God gave man scripture that was impossible to understand. I'll never believe that. Honestly, who made that up? Jesus condemned the Pharisees for "nullifying the word of God by their traditions". And besides 2 of those were not just time statements, They were promises directed to people in churches alive at that time, telling them to "hold fast" for He was coming quickly.

Why is it simple for the rest of us to understand and not for Preterists? Because it cuts across their teaching. It exposes it! If one has eyes to see, one should easily recognize the speaker, context and meaning. It is not hard to grasp.

2 Peter 3:3-15 tells us: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming (parousia)? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation.”

We glean a lot of helpful detail here relating to what happens to the creature and creation when Jesus comes, and what immediately follows. If we are able to divorce ourselves from what we have been taught, we are looking at a very climactic picture.

Unquestionably, the focus of this message is directed to the end-time-cynics who question God.
These fools question God keeping His “promise.” What promise? It is “the promise of his coming.”
The scorn and derision of these foolish last days scoffers and mockers are directed specifically towards the reality and occurrence of Christ’s future coming.
This text shows us that today is the only day of salvation. Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). Romans 2:4 reaffirms that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming.
The actual wrath described by the Holy Spirit comes suddenly and unexpectedly upon these foolish last days scoffers and mockers. There is no escape. They are the recipients of total destruction.
We also see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (or heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The detail described arrives with Jesus.
What happens to creation when Jesus arrives? 1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise. 2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’, 3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. 4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. The Premillennialist claims to be a literalist, so there is no spiritualization that can explain this away. It is water-tight.
The description of the destruction could not be more comprehensive. It is undoubtedly the end. It involves wholesale and unavoidable annihilation for the wicked. It embraces the full gamut of fallen creation.
What is this replaced with? The Holy Spirit tells us that it the “new heavens and a new earth” that follows Christ’s return.
The arrival of the “new heavens and a new earth” are here significantly connected to “his promise.”
The Holy Spirit then assures the last days elect that their lot is not wrath or destruction. They experience the new heavens and new earth at His appearing.

robycop3 · Apr 18, 2022

3 Resurrections said:
This statement of yours is only confirming the point EP is making. The same "all humanity" who saw Christ's first coming is comparable to the "every eye" seeing His second coming; namely, "those who pierced Him". And as you said, those who literally put Christ to death saw Christ's return to the Mount of Olives from Hades - which we are told in Revelation 20:14 was to be thrown into the "Lake of Fire" - which was in Jerusalem, (the location for Matthew 13:42's "furnace of fire", according to Isaiah 31:9).

Entirely wrong.
"all humanity" means JUST THAT, unless you believe Jesus was mistaken. The LOF is in the spirit world & was prepared for the devil & his angels long before there was a garbage dump outside Jerusalem. And Jesus has NOT yet returned, of course, or He'd stil be here, ruling the world.

robycop3 · Apr 18, 2022

eclipsenow said:
So are you saying Jesus didn't know how to quote the Old Testament? He used language similar to that of national warfare and disaster in the Old Testament "Day of the Lord" series of prophecies that were mostly about the punishment by warfare of OT empires in their day.

Isaiah 13: "See, the day of the Lord is coming—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger— to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.”

= Isaiah writes a prophecy against Babylon where God brings Medes and Persians to strike down Babylon. But, typical of Hebrew hyperbolic symbolism - listen to this language!

Isaiah 34: “All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.”

= is a more universal judgment against all God's enemies - the picture of Edom. It has more graphic and physical battle language mixed in with the stars falling.

Joel 2: “Before them the earth shakes, the heavens tremble, the sun and moon are darkened, and the stars no longer shine.”

= describes a vast army of the Lord bringing justice - and uses similar language.

Jesus was answering their question about the end of the temple, and the end of the temple era. I think that deserves a little bit more explanation than a few terse lines. He appears to be quoting OT verses of judgement on God's enemies to Jerusalem and the temple itself!

Nupe !
He answered the disciples in literal language.

robycop3 · Apr 18, 2022

eclipsenow said:
I agree - which is why I'm a partial preterist.

OK, partial preterist-
Jesus said He'd return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the great trib. If it's already occurred, isn't He 'WAY overdue?????

claninja · Apr 18, 2022

sovereigngrace said:
The phrase “at hand” or “near” is taken from the single Greek word eggizō, and simply means “approaches.” It is not time-specific.

Where are you getting your resources for it not being time specific? I’d actually be really interested if you could share this source.

in the meantime, here’s from helps word studies, which claims the opposite of what you said.

“1448 eggízō (from 1451 /eggýs, "near") – properly, has drawn close (come near). 1448 (eggízō) occurs 14 times in the Greek perfect tense (indicative mood) in the NT which expresses "extreme closeness, immediate imminence – even a presence ('It is here') because the moment of this coming happened (i.e. at the beginning of Jesus' ministry)" (J. Schlosser).”

Preterism, both full & partial, are false.

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