Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

Timtofly · Jan 19, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
Where did I say anything about John 3? I didn't. Do you just skim over what people say to you and not read anything carefully?

I was talking about verses like the following which teach that Jesus Himself is the first resurrection because He was the first to rise from the dead unto bodily immortality.

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Why would this be so important, because Lazarus also rose from the dead? Paul was quoting Moses, not making a doctrinal statement. Was Moses supposed to know Lazarus was to be resurrected before Christ went to the Cross? Paul was pointing out that Christ was the one considered the Ressurection and the Life. Even the fact Christ has the preeminence, does not negate the first resurrection is physical relating to the physical body.

Timtofly · Jan 19, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
You believe that the ones who will initially populate an earthly millennial kingdom in the future are mortal people who have been resurrected, right? And you believe those people will have children during the thousand years, right? If so, then why are you trying to avoid talking about that?

I told you I don't use the word mortal. They are as Adam and Eve were before sin and death entered the world. They have incorruptible physical bodies that are permanent. They will never die again physically. Since these are priest, they also will not rebel nor ever be decieved by Satan. Call that whatever you like. They are not sinners.

Timtofly · Jan 19, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
And I think he knows that he can't provide any scriptural support for his opinion. I wouldn't want to talk about it, either, if I believed something like he does that I couldn't support with any scripture.

You all do not read Genesis 1 and 2 as life prior to sin and death? What is humanity being restored to, if not how they were in Genesis 1 and 2? Do you all think it is to a third type of being totally different than Genesis and now?

Timtofly · Jan 19, 2022

sovereigngrace said:
Really? You obviously have not read Revelation 20 thorough and you clearly have no understanding of what a wicked person is then. Jesus outlines that there are countless millions of wicked in the millennium. In fact, they grow to such a degree that they are as the sand of the sea.

Do people who reject Jesus and turn against Him sin?

Do people who listen to Satan and submit to his deception sin?

Perhaps you failed to see it is after the 1,000 years expired:

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison."

Timtofly · Jan 19, 2022

sovereigngrace said:
That is ridiculous. You are the one making the allegations. The burden of proof is with you. You thought up this absurdity. You invented this extra-biblical theory. Obviously you are arguing from silence. You have nothing! So, where does it teach this in the Bible that resurrected redeemed believers procreate and produce billions of wicked satanists?

Your opinion, so stop blaming me. Can you even point out this absurd accusation in Scripture?

It is natural for humans to procreate. Scripture is full of normal humanity obeying God and having families. Why would resurrected humans be any different? You have yet to show yourself where those at the end of the 1000 years come from.

Timtofly · Jan 19, 2022

sovereigngrace said:
There is no room for mortals, wicked, death, marriage or procreation in the age to come. You force it into that age where it is not allowed. You ducked around multiple Scriptures above that I presented that exposes your argument.

You have given no verses that state those in the age to come are limited in any way. You had one verse that explains the age currently going on in Paradise after the Cross. The Cross was the resurrection and age to come in that passage. The wicked are not going to procreate in sheol, nor the Lake of Fire are they? The wicked are not going to procreate in resurrected bodies at any time. They did that the first time around. The only need to fill the earth was after Noah's Flood, and once again after the fire of the Second Coming. The difference is sin continued after the Flood. Daniel 9 declares sin will not continue after the Second Coming. Do you think sin stopped at the Cross, and we currently are sinless perfect beings that never die? That is the point of the Sabbath day of the Lord, set apart and Holy.

I agree there is no procreation for those resurrected and currently enjoying Paradise as your Scripture indicates. We are in the age to come, we are not the resurrected. Those in Paradise are like the angels and are not procreating. The Cross started that age of resurrected physical incorruptible permanent bodies in Paradise. Christ told the thief, he would be in Paradise that day. That day was the start of humanity enjoying Paradise, instead of waiting in "death/sleep" called Abraham's bosom. David called it the valley of the shadow of death. That was the age prior to the Cross. The Cross was the Last Day resurrection for that age. Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life. Jesus is Christ and Prince. Daniel 9 will only be complete at the Second Coming.

sovereigngrace · Jan 20, 2022

Timtofly said:
You have given no verses that state those in the age to come are limited in any way. You had one verse that explains the age currently going on in Paradise after the Cross. The Cross was the resurrection and age to come in that passage. The wicked are not going to procreate in sheol, nor the Lake of Fire are they? The wicked are not going to procreate in resurrected bodies at any time. They did that the first time around. The only need to fill the earth was after Noah's Flood, and once again after the fire of the Second Coming. The difference is sin continued after the Flood. Daniel 9 declares sin will not continue after the Second Coming. Do you think sin stopped at the Cross, and we currently are sinless perfect beings that never die? That is the point of the Sabbath day of the Lord, set apart and Holy.

I agree there is no procreation for those resurrected and currently enjoying Paradise as your Scripture indicates. We are in the age to come, we are not the resurrected. Those in Paradise are like the angels and are not procreating. The Cross started that age of resurrected physical incorruptible permanent bodies in Paradise. Christ told the thief, he would be in Paradise that day. That day was the start of humanity enjoying Paradise, instead of waiting in "death/sleep" called Abraham's bosom. David called it the valley of the shadow of death. That was the age prior to the Cross. The Cross was the Last Day resurrection for that age. Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life. Jesus is Christ and Prince. Daniel 9 will only be complete at the Second Coming.

There is no procreation - period - for the resurrected redeemed or wicked. That is an invention of your that carries no biblical warrant, as your constant avoidance shows.

It is hard to read your posts and impossible to engage with you. The test of truth with you is not "Scripture says." If it was we could engage. But rather "Timtofly says." You present your personal opinion as fact, even though they have no foundation in Scripture, and then you want us debate it as fact. If we disagree with your invention you demand that we prove what you have invented is not true.

That's like me arguing that when Jesus comes little green men with purple hats are going to rescue us and take us to the planet Zeus where we will all have pink castles for 1000 years and drink gasoline and eat cow manure. Then when you disagree, I demand that you show me from Scripture that when Jesus comes little green men with purple hats do not rescue us and take us to the planet Zeus where we will all have pink castles for 1000 years and drink gasoline and eat cow manure. This is ridiculous. But it sums up your theology. Your mind is the source of your doctrine, not Scripture. That is why you cannot show us your beliefs in the inspired text.

Where in Scripture does it say that resurrected believers go to two different destinies?
Since when has there ever been physically resurrected human beings before Jesus defeated the grave? What has Noah's day to do with this matter under discussion when no one was resurrected then?
Where in the Bible does it teach that resurrected beings can procreate?
Are Gog and Magog the redeemed dead who are "beheaded for not taking the mark" and their offspring?
Where is the millennium called "the Lord's Day"?
Do people who reject Jesus and turn against Him sin?
Do people who listen to Satan and submit to his deception sin?
If the wicked are destroyed at the end of Satan’s little season then where do they go when they die? Do they not need to be resurrected again to be judged?
If these resurrected souls are destroyed at the end of Satan’s little season do they then have another resurrection in order to be judged at the GWT?
What type of bodies do these millennial rebels possess when they are resurrected again in order to be judged at the GWT?

sovereigngrace · Jan 20, 2022

Timtofly said:
You have given no verses that state those in the age to come are limited in any way. You had one verse that explains the age currently going on in Paradise after the Cross. The Cross was the resurrection and age to come in that passage. The wicked are not going to procreate in sheol, nor the Lake of Fire are they? The wicked are not going to procreate in resurrected bodies at any time. They did that the first time around. The only need to fill the earth was after Noah's Flood, and once again after the fire of the Second Coming. The difference is sin continued after the Flood. Daniel 9 declares sin will not continue after the Second Coming. Do you think sin stopped at the Cross, and we currently are sinless perfect beings that never die? That is the point of the Sabbath day of the Lord, set apart and Holy.

I agree there is no procreation for those resurrected and currently enjoying Paradise as your Scripture indicates. We are in the age to come, we are not the resurrected. Those in Paradise are like the angels and are not procreating. The Cross started that age of resurrected physical incorruptible permanent bodies in Paradise. Christ told the thief, he would be in Paradise that day. That day was the start of humanity enjoying Paradise, instead of waiting in "death/sleep" called Abraham's bosom. David called it the valley of the shadow of death. That was the age prior to the Cross. The Cross was the Last Day resurrection for that age. Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life. Jesus is Christ and Prince. Daniel 9 will only be complete at the Second Coming.

I have presented multiple Scriptures that prove that the earth to come is perfect, incorrupt and glorified. I've also showed you that only the glorified saints are qualified to inherit it. The wicked and mortals are forbidden from it. You have avoided every single one of these texts. You have to! That is because they expose your doctrine.

Proverbs 2:21-22, Psalm 25:12-13, Psalm 37:9-11, Psalm 37:22, Psalm 37:28-36, Matthew 5:5, Matthew 25:34 & 46, Romans 8:16-23, 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Corinthians 15:50 show that the earth that Jesus brings is exclusively for glorified believers. You somehow populate your imaginary kingdom with millions of procreating resurrected believers who produce billions for wicked rebels who reject Jesus and follow Satan. Your millennium is a debacle.

sovereigngrace · Jan 20, 2022

Timtofly said:
I have no hostility towards the "putting on of immortality". I take issue with the word "immortal".

Same meaning. You are playing with words to support your beliefs. "Immortality" makes one "immortal."

Spiritual Jew · Jan 20, 2022

Timtofly said:
Where in the Scriptures can beings with incorruptible bodies not have the ability to procreate? The reason for humanity on earth has not changed since Genesis 1.

Answering a question with a question? You know that someone doesn't have any explanation for their beliefs when all they can do is answer a question with a question.

I assume from this non-answer that your answer to the question "Where in The Bible does it teach that resurrected beings can procreate?" is nowhere?

Spiritual Jew · Jan 20, 2022

Timtofly said:
Is this argument about the city or the number? You know as much about it as I do. The point is that this deception happens after the 1,000 years. It is not even a part of the millennium issue amil have. Not sure why Amil even bring it up?

Do you think it's not noticeable how you do anything you can to avoid addressing questions that you're asked? Are the questions too hard for you or is there some reason why you can't just admit that you have no answers since your beliefs are all made up and not found in scripture?

I'm asking you to tell me how exactly a number of people "as the sand of the sea" would travel from all over the world to Israel and then go and surround Jerusalem. How would that work exactly? Explain the logistics of that to me. You are the one who believes this, so explain to me how something like that could even happen. I'm not going to believe something like that could even be possible without some kind of explanation for how that could possibly work.

Spiritual Jew · Jan 20, 2022

Timtofly said:
Why would this be so important, because Lazarus also rose from the dead?

Are you kidding me here? Lazarus has nothing to do with this since he was not resurrected unto bodily immortality. You are asking me why it is important to point out that Christ was the first to rise from the dead? Without Him rising from the dead unto bodily immortality we would not have the future hope of having immortal bodies ourselves. How can you not know the importance of Christ's resurrection? You are utterly lacking in discernment. If Lazarus had already been resurrected unto bodily immortality before Christ then that takes away the significance of Christ's resurrection! Did you just become a Christian yesterday? I'm seriously concerned about your apparent complete lack of understanding of elementary Christian beliefs that all Christians should understand.

Paul was quoting Moses, not making a doctrinal statement.

Nonsense. The same thing is taught in verses like 1 Corinthians 15:20, Colossians 1:18 and Revelation 1:5. Christ was the first to be resurrected in the sense that He was the first to be resurrected unto bodily immortality. How can you not know this?

Was Moses supposed to know Lazarus was to be resurrected before Christ went to the Cross?

Lazarus was not resurrected unto bodily immortality. If he was then Paul would have mentioned him in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23, but he didn't. In that passage Paul pointed out that Christ was the first to be resurrected unto bodily immortality and next in order are those who belong to Christ when He returns.

Paul was pointing out that Christ was the one considered the Ressurection and the Life. Even the fact Christ has the preeminence, does not negate the first resurrection is physical relating to the physical body.

You have no idea of what you're talking about. None. You are 100% lacking in discernment and that is troubling.

Spiritual Jew · Jan 20, 2022

Timtofly said:
Perhaps you failed to see it is after the 1,000 years expired:

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison."

So, they are all righteous people who love the Lord and obey Him for 1,000 years and then a number of them "as the sand of the sea" suddenly decide that they reject Him and don't want to follow Him anymore? How could their faith and loyalty be so weak even after 1,000 years? Why would Satan be able to have more influence on them in a short amount of time than Christ had on them for 1,000 years?

Timtofly · Jan 20, 2022

sovereigngrace said:
There is no procreation - period - for the resurrected redeemed or wicked. That is an invention of your that carries no biblical warrant, as your constant avoidance shows.

It is hard to read your posts and impossible to engage with you. The test of truth with you is not "Scripture says." If it was we could engage. But rather "Timtofly says." You present your personal opinion as fact, even though they have no foundation in Scripture, and then you want us debate it as fact. If we disagree with your invention you demand that we prove what you have invented is not true.

That's like me arguing that when Jesus comes little green men with purple hats are going to rescue us and take us to the planet Zeus where we will all have pink castles for 1000 years and drink gasoline and eat cow manure. Then when you disagree, I demand that you show me from Scripture that when Jesus comes little green men with purple hats do not rescue us and take us to the planet Zeus where we will all have pink castles for 1000 years and drink gasoline and eat cow manure. This is ridiculous. But it sums up your theology. Your mind is the source of your doctrine, not Scripture. That is why you cannot show us your beliefs in the inspired text.

Where in Scripture does it say that resurrected believers go to two different destinies?

Since when has there ever been physically resurrected human beings before Jesus defeated the grave? What has Noah's day to do with this matter under discussion when no one was resurrected then?

Where in the Bible does it teach that resurrected beings can procreate?

Are Gog and Magog the redeemed dead who are "beheaded for not taking the mark" and their offspring?

Where is the millennium called "the Lord's Day"?

Do people who reject Jesus and turn against Him sin?

Do people who listen to Satan and submit to his deception sin?

If the wicked are destroyed at the end of Satan’s little season then where do they go when they die? Do they not need to be resurrected again to be judged?

If these resurrected souls are destroyed at the end of Satan’s little season do they then have another resurrection in order to be judged at the GWT?

What type of bodies do these millennial rebels possess when they are resurrected again in order to be judged at the GWT?

What does any of this post have to do with inheriting and filling the earth?

Isaiah 65

"They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord."

This is growth and new life added. Not just the stagnant same body of humanity without any growth.

Offspring is not my invention, but the Word of God.

sovereigngrace · Jan 20, 2022

Timtofly said:
What does any of this post have to do with inheriting and filling the earth?

Isaiah 65

"They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord."

This is growth and new life added. Not just the stagnant same body of humanity without any growth.

Offspring is not my invention, but the Word of God.

And when exactly are you going to answer these simple questions? You are always trying to divert the subject away from the obvious. Once again, you carefully side step every point I made and query I presented.

sovereigngrace · Jan 20, 2022

Timtofly said:
What does any of this post have to do with inheriting and filling the earth?

Isaiah 65

"They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord."

This is growth and new life added. Not just the stagnant same body of humanity without any growth.

Offspring is not my invention, but the Word of God.

I am not sure where you see babies being birthed here. I feel you are imputing things into this reading that aren't there. Where does it say babes are born? It doesn't say they will have offspring, only that they will bring their offspring with them into the eternal state and that they will be blessed. That is just a reminder of the covenant promise that believers hold unto. I am sure you believe it is possible to bring our saved children with us to heaven?

Spiritual Jew · Jan 20, 2022

Timtofly said:
I told you I don't use the word mortal.

Why not? All the word means is that they will die as opposed to being immortal which means you can't die. You say they will not be immortal, don't you? That would mean they are mortal.

They are as Adam and Eve were before sin and death entered the world. They have incorruptible physical bodies that are permanent. They will never die again physically.

So, they are immortal since that is what being immortal means: you can't die. You have this goofy idea that the word incorruptible means something different than the word immortal, but it doesn't. Why you have a problem with the words "mortal" and "immortal", I'll never know. Frankly, it's weird. Paul talked about us putting in immortality at the last trumpet. Does that bother you? Putting on immortality obviously means to become immortal.

Since these are priest, they also will not rebel nor ever be decieved by Satan. Call that whatever you like. They are not sinners.

Who are the ones who rebel when the thousand years end and Satan is loosed then?

Timtofly · Jan 20, 2022

sovereigngrace said:
I have presented multiple Scriptures that prove that the earth to come is perfect, incorrupt and glorified. I've also showed you that only the glorified saints are qualified to inherit it. The wicked and mortals are forbidden from it. You have avoided every single one of these texts. You have to! That is because they expose your doctrine.

Proverbs 2:21-22, Psalm 25:12-13, Psalm 37:9-11, Psalm 37:22, Psalm 37:28-36, Matthew 5:5, Matthew 25:34 & 46, Romans 8:16-23, 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Corinthians 15:50 show that the earth that Jesus brings is exclusively for glorified believers. You somehow populate your imaginary kingdom with millions of procreating resurrected believers who produce billions for wicked rebels who reject Jesus and follow Satan. Your millennium is a debacle.

So you don't accept the resurrection of Revelation 20:4 as into incorruptible physical bodies? What other kind of physical body does God give resurrected people?

Only you make the soon to come 1000 years a debacle. May as well just give up forcing people to think it is.

Timtofly · Jan 20, 2022

sovereigngrace said:
Same meaning. You are playing with words to support your beliefs. "Immortality" makes one "immortal."

If you are a Greek mythologist.

Putting on immortality makes one a glorified son of God in the full image of God. Putting on the spirit makes us shine like the stars. Matthew 13:43 Daniel 12:3.

sovereigngrace · Jan 20, 2022

Timtofly said:
So you don't accept the resurrection of Revelation 20:4 as into incorruptible physical bodies? What other kind of physical body does God give resurrected people?

Only you make the soon to come 1000 years a debacle. May as well just give up forcing people to think it is.

Read what I have wrote. Why do we always have to keep repeating what we have wrote to you? Can you not read our posts the first time?

We have our part in the first resurrection in salvation. That is through the new birth. This is currently ongoing. Remember, we are in Him! We are one with Him! We are spiritually united to Him! His life is our life. We are hidden in Him. He is our legal head! The body is interconnected with the head. The New Testament repeatedly states that we are what we are “through Christ” “in Christ” or “by Christ.”

· 77 times in the New Testament it describes us as being “in Christ.”
· 70 times in the New Testament it describes us as being “in Him.”

· 5 times in the New Testament it describes us as functioning “by Christ.”
· 35 times in the New Testament it describes us as functioning “by Him.”

· 5 times in the New Testament it describes us as operating “through Christ.”
· 7 times in the New Testament it describes us as operating “through Him.”

· Another similar phrase that Jesus used to denote the same meaning was “in me.” Applicable references that were used in this context amount to about 12 mentions.
· There are 2 further citations to “by me” referring to our union in Christ.

Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

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