Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

Zao is life · Dec 11, 2021

DavidPT said:
You were saying something about this in an earlier post as well. What I would point out here, is this. The NHNE is what contains the new Jerusalem and not, they are one and the same. The reason I mention this, it would be the NJ that resembles the garden of Eden. In the garden of Eden the fall took place inside. satan was inside the garden of Eden. Per what Revelation 20 records, satan and those he deceives, are not anyone in the NJ nor is satan or anyone he deceives, inside of the NJ at the time. They are outside of it, thus it is an attack from the outside and not from within instead.

In the garden of Eden it was the ones inside that were being deceived. Currently pretty much everyone on the planet, except for saved Christians, are deceived and have continued to be deceived for the past 2000 years. This alone has Amil making no sense, as if satan is going to deceive the already deceived once he is loosed, as if that is supposed to make sense. Per Premil not one single person will be deceived during the thousand years, thus plenty of ppl for satan to deceive after the thousand years who are not deceived during the thousand years. Per Premil then, the logic is that satan deceives those no longer deceived. Per Amil, the logic is that satan deceives those already deceived. Are Amils instead going to argue that satan deceives the already saved when he is loosed? Are Amils going to argue that anyone who is not saved, that they are not deceived?

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

You don't deceive someone already deceived, you deceive someone not deceived. Only per Premil are these in verse 8 not deceived during the thousand years. The reason they are not deceived is because Christ and His saints are ruling over the entire planet during the thousand years, thus no deceivers trying to deceive them any longer, not until satan is loosed. During Amils' proposed thousand years there are deceivers throughout the entire thousand years. Even Amils can't deny this. Or if they do they shouldn't be.

I understand what you are saying. As you know I do not believe and have never believed that Satan was bound at Calvary. He was utterly and totally defeated at Calvary, but he has been deceiving the nations ever since (and even the church where he can), so his binding is not yet.

The problem comes with this:

You admitted that you also see the NHNE as immediately following the return of Christ when I mentioned what I saw in the Revelation which suggests that it does.

But here's the problem: If the "thousand years" (+ its close) takes place in the NHNE (i.e if the NHNE and the "thousand years" follows immediately after the return of Christ), then the thousand years cannot be literal, because such a thing as a thousand literal years is impossible in eternity (How long is "a thousand years" in eternity, or what percentage of eternity is it? Is it 0.00000000........000000000000001% of eternity? If not, then what fraction of eternity is it?)

"A fraction of eternity" is meaningless, because it cannot be measured and the moment you divide eternity into "a fraction of eternity" + "the rest of eternity" you no longer have eternity, but time.

So if the NHNE follows immediately after the return of Christ and the "thousand years" follows the return of Christ, then the "thousand years" cannot be literal.

All this is a big problem if our theory (regarding the NHNE and the thousand years both following immediately after the return of Christ) were true, because then we will have Satan deceiving the nations in eternity after having been bound for a symbolic "thousand years" in eternity (because a literal "thousand years" in eternity is an oxymoron).

Zao is life · Dec 11, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Not true! Have a look at the biblical evidence:

Revelation 12:3: “And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns.”

Revelation 13:1-4, “And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns.”

I don't agree.

1. Where are the crowns on the dragon in Revelation 12:3?
2. Where are the crowns on the beast in Revelation 13:1?

Answer: The crowns have shifted from the heads of the dragon to the 10 kings. Why? It's because the dragon has now given the beast (two different entities) his seat, power, & great authority.

The Revelation is making a distinction between the one and the other.

Revelation 12:3: Each head of the dragon has a crown.
Revelation 17:9-10: Each head of the beast has a king. The sixth king existed in John's day, the seventh was still to come.

Revelation 17:10-11: The 10 kings can only be kings existing simultaneously as the seventh head of the beast.

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Revelation 13:1 -2: The beast with 10 crowns on its 10 horns = the beast that has received from Satan his seat, power, & great authority.

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The beast is human, the devils and Satan possess it/him. Humans do not ascend out of the abyss but can be possessed by Satan:

1. The son of perdition, of whom it is said that Satan entered into him (John 17:12; John 13:27), a.k.a Judas Iscariot.

2. The son of perdition, of whom it is said that his coming is "according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved." (II Thessalonians 2:3 & 9-10), a.k.a the man of sin, a.k.a the lawless one.

3. The beast that ascends from the bottomless pit and goes to perdition (Revelation 17:8, 11).

Note 1: The ten kings who are the crowns on the head of the beast which received its seat, power, & great authority from Satan, do something with their power and authority:

"And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom yet, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast." Revelation 17:12-13

"And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth. And it had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke like a dragon. And it exercises all the authority of the first beast before him, and causes the earth and those dwelling in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed." Revelation 13:11-12

"These have one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast."
"And it exercises all the authority of the first beast before him"

Again, the 10 kings are human kings that did not come hopping out of the abyss but are empowered by all the forces of darkness that did come out of the abyss when it was opened, which have Satan as their king.

Again, nowhere does the Revelation say that the beast was thrown into the abyss. It says only that the beast will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. The beast "ascending out of the abyss" is figurative because the source of his power is the abyss and Satan.

10 And there are seven kings; five have fallen, and one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into perdition.
12 And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom yet, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast.

I believe it's one man - the man of sin, the son of perdition, the lawless one. The 10 kings, who receive their power and authority from Satan, will hand all their power and authority over to him. This is the 8th king. I believe he will have been calling himself a Christian, and will have been known to have been a Christian, and like Judas Iscariot, a prominent figure. He will cause the apostasy spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2 OR the apostasy will bring about the rise of this one.

1. The son of perdition, of whom it is said that Satan entered into him (John 17:12; John 13:27), a.k.a Judas Iscariot.

2. The son of perdition, of whom it is said that his coming is "according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved." (II Thessalonians 2:3 & 9-10), a.k.a the man of sin, a.k.a the lawless one.

... a.k.a "the beast from the earth" who exercises all the authority of the 10 kings because they have handed all their authority and power over to him (i.e the 10 kings who received their seat, power & great authority from Satan).

Zao is life · Dec 11, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Your beliefs hang solely upon the thin thread that Revelation 20 is chronological to Revelation 19. Take that away, and Premillennialism falls apart. Yet you claim the NHNE arrive at the second coming. Well, that comes after the millennium is over. There also your argument falls apart.

Yes. You are right, and I have said so. I admitted it more than once to you. I said I'm in a state of cognitive dissonance until I get it sorted.

But Amil consisting of the entire intra-Advent Age also falls apart

1. When you (IF you, because Amills don't and won't admit it) admit that those who are reigning with Christ cannot be reigning with Christ for "a thousand years" before the beast appeared of whom it is said in the Revelation that all will be required to worship it or its image or receive its mark or the number of its name.

2. Amil falls apart if you admit (which you won't) that the entire New Testament teaches that Satan, though utterly and totally defeated at Calvary, has been neither bound nor destroyed in the Lake of Fire yet.

So there are reasons why both Amil of consisting of the entire intra-Advent period and Pre-mil fall apart.

Maybe we've been looking for the thousand years (which may be symbolic) in the wrong "time". Maybe the symbolic "thousand years" exists somewhere in-between the 6th and 7th trumpets and 6th and 7th bowls of wrath and 6th and 7th seals.

DavidPT · Dec 11, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
You do not seem to understand Amil or the whole thrust of Revelation 20. This chapter shows us that the binding of Satan facilitates the enlightenment of the Gentiles as a whole through the great commission. This is a generality. Satan is powerless to curtail the global invasion of the kingdom of darkness. He is powerless to stop the Church of Jesus Christ. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles are now without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted. The means by which God lifts deception is the preaching of the Word of God. This has now been successfully ongoing throughout the nations for 2000 years. The Gospel is no longer limited to the small nation of Israel but was rather, through the life and work of Christ, opened up to all the nations.

The release of Satan at the end of the millennium sees the subjugation of the great commission and consequently the enlightenment of the nations. The devil will be able to curtail the evangelistic outreach of the true Church at the end. This is a generality. The spiritual restrains will be released on Satan and the beast/antichrist system at the end to curtail the global spread of the Gospel. Satan will be loosed for a short time. The one who "letteth," or restrains, will be taken out of the way (2 Thess 2:7). This enables Satan to establish his world-kingdom under antichrist. The result is the final, all-out assault upon the Church and her living, faithful members.

Let's compare positions then ask ourselves which position agrees with the text.

The Premil position. Nations are deceived and continue to be deceived during the first advent through the 2nd advent. Then nations are no longer being deceived because the beast and fp that have been deceiving them in the final days of this age, they are cast into the LOF once Christ returns. And satan is cast into the pit so that he should deceive the nations no more. Those of the nations that are allowed to live a little while longer rather than be destroyed at the time(Zechariah 14:16-19), none of these are any longer being deceived because Christ is now bodily present on the earth, and that He and His resurrected saints are ruling the entire planet. When the thousand years are up satan is loosed then sets out to once again deceive the nations that are no longer being deceived during the thousand years, thus he deceives someone no longer deceived and not someone already deceived.

The Amil position. During the thousand years when satan is in the pit so that he should deceive the nations no more, nations are still being deceived, regardless. And the following undeniably proves it---And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea(Revelation 20:8). Obviously, these are meaning the unsaved. Obviously, they are alive during the final days of Amil's proposed thousand years. Obviously, they are being deceived during the thousand years, otherwise they would be among the saved not the unsaved. When satan is loosed he then sets out to deceive them, except they are already deceived and that they have been being deceived during the thousand years regardless that satan is in the pit so that nations are no longer deceived. And there are apparently billions meant here. Not billions of nations, but billions of ppl making up all of these nations. Thus he sets out to deceive someone already deceived once he is loosed and not someone not deceived or no longer deceived instead.

To sum it up. Once satan is loosed, per Premil he sets out to deceive the nations that are no longer deceived. Per Amil, once satan is loosed, he sets out to deceive the nations that are already deceived before he is supposed to even deceive them.

DavidPT · Dec 11, 2021

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
I understand what you are saying. As you know I do not believe and have never believed that Satan was bound at Calvary. He was utterly and totally defeated at Calvary, but he has been deceiving the nations ever since (and even the church where he can), so his binding is not yet.

The problem comes with this:

You admitted that you also see the NHNE as immediately following the return of Christ when I mentioned what I saw in the Revelation which suggests that it does.

But here's the problem: If the "thousand years" (+ its close) takes place in the NHNE (i.e if the NHNE and the "thousand years" follows immediately after the return of Christ), then the thousand years cannot be literal, because such a thing as a thousand literal years is impossible in eternity (How long is "a thousand years" in eternity, or what percentage of eternity is it? Is it 0.00000000........000000000000001% of eternity? If not, then what fraction of eternity is it?)

"A fraction of eternity" is meaningless, because it cannot be measured and the moment you divide eternity into "a fraction of eternity" + "the rest of eternity" you no longer have eternity, but time.

So if the NHNE follows immediately after the return of Christ and the "thousand years" follows the return of Christ, then the "thousand years" cannot be literal.

All this is a big problem if our theory (regarding the NHNE and the thousand years both following immediately after the return of Christ) were true, because then we will have Satan deceiving the nations in eternity after having been bound for a symbolic "thousand years" in eternity (because a literal "thousand years" in eternity is an oxymoron).

I guess it depends on how one looks at things. IMO, eternity still involves time except it is now never ending for us. For one, unless we were lied to in the OT, the sun and the moon shall remain forever. It makes no sense to have a sun and a moon unless there is still day and night on this planet. Then there is Revelation 20:10 that says satan shall be tormented day and night. Why put it like that if day and night no longer exists in the next age? And what if man had not even fallen? Would day and night cease to exist eventually? Then there is this in Revelation 22---was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations(Revelation 22:2). Why even mention months if time is longer measurable at this point?

Plus there is this as well.

Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

In my view this is meaning a time post the 2nd coming and that it mentions measurable time, that being summer and winter.

sovereigngrace · Dec 11, 2021

DavidPT said:
Let's compare positions then ask ourselves which position agrees with the text.

The Premil position. Nations are deceived and continue to be deceived during the first advent through the 2nd advent. Then nations are no longer being deceived because the beast and fp that have been deceiving them in the final days of this age, they are cast into the LOF once Christ returns. And satan is cast into the pit so that he should deceive the nations no more. Those of the nations that are allowed to live a little while longer rather than be destroyed at the time(Zechariah 14:16-19), none of these are any longer being deceived because Christ is now bodily present on the earth, and that He and His resurrected saints are ruling the entire planet. When the thousand years are up satan is loosed then sets out to once again deceive the nations that are no longer being deceived during the thousand years, thus he deceives someone no longer deceived and not someone already deceived.

The Amil position. During the thousand years when satan is in the pit so that he should deceive the nations no more, nations are still being deceived, regardless. And the following undeniably proves it---And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea(Revelation 20:8). Obviously, these are meaning the unsaved. Obviously, they are alive during the final days of Amil's proposed thousand years. Obviously, they are being deceived during the thousand years, otherwise they would be among the saved not the unsaved. When satan is loosed he then sets out to deceive them, except they are already deceived and that they have been being deceived during the thousand years regardless that satan is in the pit so that nations are no longer deceived. And there are apparently billions meant here. Not billions of nations, but billions of ppl making up all of these nations. Thus he sets out to deceive someone already deceived once he is loosed and not someone not deceived or no longer deceived instead.

To sum it up. Once satan is loosed, per Premil he sets out to deceive the nations that are no longer deceived. Per Amil, once satan is loosed, he sets out to deceive the nations that are already deceived before he is supposed to deceive them.

Once again, you ignored my last post that rebuts your position. Once again, you failed to present any corroboration for your position. That is because it does not exist.

I refer you back to my last post.

sovereigngrace · Dec 11, 2021

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Yes. You are right, and I have said so. I admitted it more than once to you. I said I'm in a state of cognitive dissonance until I get it sorted.

But Amil consisting of the entire intra-Advent Age also falls apart

1. When you (IF you, because Amills don't and won't admit it) admit that those who are reigning with Christ cannot be reigning with Christ for "a thousand years" before the beast appeared of whom it is said in the Revelation that all will be required to worship it or its image or receive its mark or the number of its name.

2. Amil falls apart if you admit (which you won't) that the entire New Testament teaches that Satan, though utterly and totally defeated at Calvary, has been neither bound nor destroyed in the Lake of Fire yet.

So there are reasons why both Amil of consisting of the entire intra-Advent period and Pre-mil fall apart.

Maybe we've been looking for the thousand years (which may be symbolic) in the wrong "time". Maybe the symbolic "thousand years" exists somewhere in-between the 6th and 7th trumpets and 6th and 7th bowls of wrath and 6th and 7th seals.

You will not see my position until you see that the 24 months is not the beginning of the beast's tyranny and his spiritual mark of ownership. Amils believe he has existed from long before John. What is more, until you see the chains and prison as spiritual and you will not understand what I am saying.

DavidPT · Dec 11, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Once again, you ignored my last post that rebuts your position. Once again, you faiedl to present any corroboration for your position. That is because it does not exist.

I refer you back to my last post.

Your rebuts are meaningless until you first explain how it is reasonable that satan sets out to deceive billions that are already deceived before he is even supposed to deceive them.

Zao is life · Dec 11, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
You will not see my position until you see that the 24 months is not the beginning of the beast's tyranny and his spiritual mark of ownership. Amils believe he has existed from long before John. What is more, until you see the chains and prison as spiritual and you will not understand what I am saying.

Yes. That's why we cannot agree on it. From what I can gather (from what you are saying) you believe that the beast existed before John's day, did not exist in John's day, and yet still existed in John's day, and yet the same beast was thrown into the abyss with Satan before John received the Revelation.

To me your understanding of it = "the beast which existed before John's time but did not exist in John's time and yet still existed in John's time, together with it's boss (Satan) have been running around merrily together all along, but with varying degrees of power, even though they are both bound together in the abyss at the moment, from whence the beast will come up again".

But whether Amil or Premil, the text does not have John as being around to experience or witness the marveling of those who would be around when the beast reappeared, once having "ascended from the bottomless pit".

sovereigngrace · Dec 11, 2021

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
The beast is human, the devils and Satan possess it/him. Humans do not ascend out of the abyss but can be possessed by Satan ...

1. The son of perdition, of whom it is said that Satan entered into him (John 17:12; John 13:27), a.k.a Judas Iscariot.

2. The son of perdition, of whom it is said that his coming is "according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved." (II Thessalonians 2:3 & 9-10), a.k.a the man of sin, a.k.a the lawless one.

3. The beast that ascends from the bottomless pit and goes to perdition (Revelation 17:8, 11).

Note 1: The ten kings who are the crowns on the head of the beast which received its seat, power, & great authority from Satan, do something with their power and authority ...

I believe it's one man - the man of sin, the son of perdition, the lawless one. The 10 kings, who receive their power and authority from Satan, will hand all their power and authority over to him. This is the 8th king. I believe he will have been calling himself a Christian, and will have been known to have been a Christian, and like Judas Iscariot, a prominent figure. He will cause the apostasy spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2 OR the apostasy will bring about the rise of this one.

1. The son of perdition, of whom it is said that Satan entered into him (John 17:12; John 13:27), a.k.a Judas Iscariot.

2. The son of perdition, of whom it is said that his coming is "according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved." (II Thessalonians 2:3 & 9-10), a.k.a the man of sin, a.k.a the lawless one.

... a.k.a "the beast from the earth" who exercises all the authority of the 10 kings because they have handed all their authority and power over to him (i.e the 10 kings who received their seat, power & great authority from Satan).

Thanks for your deep research and thoughts. However, I totally disagree with what you have written above. You have provided no biblical evidence here to prove the beast is an actual man, quite the opposite. All i see is you forcing your own opinions on the sacred text. If we take the time to put the evidence together carefully pertaining to the beast objectively and in detail, you would quickly conclude that the beast cannot be an individual man. That is because:

1. The beast has been around for over 2000 years (Revelation 17:8, Revelation 17:11-13, 1 John 2:18-23, 1 John 4:1-3, 5-6, 2 John 1:7, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3-13). No man has lived that long on earth. Only a wicked spirit or an evil empire could possibly fulfil that portrayal.
2. How can a literal human being be literally “in them that perish” (2 Thessalonians 2:10)? This would suggest him being in every single unsaved person. Only a spirit can do that.
3. The beast carries the allegiance of all the non-elect. No single human being has or ever or will possess that wholesale allegiance. Only a broader worldly spirit enjoys all the loyalty of the wicked.
4. There is nowhere in Scripture that shows human beings in the abyss (Luke 8:31, Romans 10:7, Revelation 9:1, 2, 11, 11:7, 17:8, and 20:1, 3). Any time it is mentioned, it is shown to be the exclusive abode of Satan and his demons.
5. What man possesses 7 heads? These describe 7 wicked kingdoms in history with 7 kings ruling over them. No man can possibly satisfy that.
6. According to the original Greek, and in contrast to what many people teach, 666 is the number of “man,” not the number of “a man.”
7. Finally, what human being in history lives in, and rises up out of, the sea at the end? Such an idea is non-sensical.

Again, nowhere does the Revelation say that the beast was thrown into the abyss. It says only that the beast will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. The beast "ascending out of the abyss" is figurative because the source of his power is the abyss and Satan.

10 And there are seven kings; five have fallen, and one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into perdition.
12 And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom yet, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast.

If you take the time and let Scripture interpret Scripture, you are able to put the apocalyptic jigsaw puzzle together. What you present is totally defeating your own argument. You are all over the place. In one breath you wrongly render the beast a human (with zero evidence). You then rightly say "Humans do not ascend out of the abyss." But in the next breath you say "The beast 'ascending out of the abyss' is figurative because the source of his power is the abyss and Satan." No wonder you are confused on this whole subject. You are refuting yourself in your whole argument.

How can the beast ascend out of the abyss if he is not in the abyss? That is nonsensical. It seems like you are trying to push a narrative that simply doesn't fit.

Revelation 11:7-9: “And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.”

Hello! The beast obviously is in the bottomless pit if he ascends out of it just before the second coming.

Revelation 17:7-8: “And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

Hello! The beast obviously is in the bottomless pit if he ascends out of it just before the second coming.

Revelation 17:10-11: The 10 kings

Click to expand...

can only be kings existing simultaneously as the seventh head of the beast..

This too is wrong! Where do you get this from Revelation 17:10-11? It is simply not there. Let the text speak for itself instead of continually forcing your theology upon it.

Revelation 17:10-12: "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."

The 7th kingdom is long gone before the end. The 8th kingdom at the end has these 10 kings functioning for one hour before Jesus comes. They work on the beast's behalf. This 8th kingdom that is to rise again was part of the seven. In other words, the 8th kingdom will be a revival of the other former kingdoms embedded in it. The 8th kingdom is the beast himself, obviously rising up in his own right rather than in a delegated sense (through other evil earthly empires) like before.

1. Where are the crowns on the dragon in Revelation 12:3?
2. Where are the crowns on the beast in Revelation 13:1?

Answer: The crowns have shifted from the heads of the dragon to the 10 kings. Why? It's because the dragon has now given the beast (two different entities) his seat, power, & great authority...

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Revelation 13:1 -2: The beast with 10 crowns on its 10 horns = the beast that has received from Satan his seat, power, & great authority.

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Revelation 12:3: Each head of the dragon has a crown.
Revelation 17:9-10: Each head of the beast has a king. The sixth king existed in John's day, the seventh was still to come...

"And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom yet, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast." Revelation 17:12-13

"And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth. And it had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke like a dragon. And it exercises all the authority of the first beast before him, and causes the earth and those dwelling in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed." Revelation 13:11-12

"These have one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast."
"And it exercises all the authority of the first beast before him"

Again, the 10 kings are human kings that did not come hopping out of the abyss but are empowered by all the forces of darkness that did come out of the abyss when it was opened, which have Satan as their king.

These crowns are symbolic of authority. But Satan only has 7 crowns and there are 10 kings. The beast has 10 crowns and there are 10 kings. I believe this is telling us that Satan gives authority to the 7 wicked kingdoms through history and that the beast gives gives authority to the 10 wicked kings.

The Revelation is making a distinction between the one and the other.

Click to expand...

Who is arguing with that?

Zao is life · Dec 11, 2021

DavidPT said:
I guess it depends on how one looks at things. IMO, eternity still involves time except it is now never ending for us. For one, unless we were lied to in the OT, the sun and the moon shall remain forever. It makes no sense to have a sun and a moon unless there is still day and night on this planet. Then there is Revelation 20:10 that says satan shall be tormented day and night. Why put it like that if day and night no longer exists in the next age? And what if man had not even fallen? Would day and night cease to exist eventually? Then there is this in Revelation 22---was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations(Revelation 22:2). Why even mention months if time is longer measurable at this point?

Plus there is this as well.

Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

In my view this is meaning a time post the 2nd coming and that it mentions measurable time, that being summer and winter.

I understand what you are saying and I believe you may be right, but I also think that (maybe) the text telling us that Satan will be tormented day and night is another way of saying he will be tormented 24/7. The language is limited to the common use of language at the time John received the Revelation.

Zao is life · Dec 11, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
I totally disagree. You have provided no biblical evidence here to prove the beast is an actual man, quite the opposite. All i see is you forcing your own opinions on the sacred text. If we take the time to put the evidence together carefully pertaining to the beast objectively and in detail, you would quickly conclude that the beast cannot be an individual man. That is because:

1. The beast has been around for over 2000 years (Revelation 17:8, Revelation 17:11-13, 1 John 2:18-23, 1 John 4:1-3, 5-6, 2 John 1:7, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3-13). No man has lived that long on earth. Only a wicked spirit or an evil empire could possibly fulfil that portrayal.
2. How can a literal human being be literally “in them that perish” (2 Thessalonians 2:10)? This would suggest him being in every single unsaved person. Only a spirit can do that.
3. The beast carries the allegiance of all the non-elect. No single human being has or ever or will possess that wholesale allegiance. Only a broader worldly spirit enjoys all the loyalty of the wicked.
4. There is nowhere in Scripture that shows human beings in the abyss (Luke 8:31, Romans 10:7, Revelation 9:1, 2, 11, 11:7, 17:8, and 20:1, 3). Any time it is mentioned, it is shown to be the exclusive abode of Satan and his demons.
5. What man possesses 7 heads? These describe 7 wicked kingdoms in history with 7 kings ruling over them. No man can possibly satisfy that.
6. According to the original Greek, and in contrast to what many people teach, 666 is the number of “man,” not the number of “a man.”
7. Finally, what human being in history lives in, and rises up out of, the sea at the end? Such an idea is non-sensical.

That is blatantly wrong. What is more, you are totally defeating your own argument. You are all over the place. In one breath you wrongly render the beast a human with zero evidence. You then rightly say "Humans do not ascend out of the abyss" in the next breath you say "The beast 'ascending out of the abyss' is figurative because the source of his power is the abyss and Satan." No wonder you are confused on this whole subject. You are refuting yourself in your whole argument.

How can the beast ascend out of the abyss if he is not in the abyss? That is nonsensical. It seems like you are trying to push a narrative that simply doesn't fit.

Rev 11:7-9: “And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.”

Hello! The beast obviously is in the bottomless pit if he ascends out of it just before the second coming.

Rev 17:7-8: “And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

Hello! The beast obviously is in the bottomless pit if he ascends out of it just before the second coming.

Wrong! Where do you get this from Revelation 17:10-11? It is simply not there. Let the text speak for itself instead of continually forcing your theology upon it.

Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

The 7th kingdom is long gone before the end. The 8th kingdom at the end has these 10 kings functioning for one hour before Jesus comes. They work on the beast's behalf. This 8th kingdom that is to rise again was part of the seven. In other words, the 8th kingdom will be a revival of the other former kingdoms embedded in it. The 8th kingdom is the beast himself, obviously rising up in his own right rather than in a delegated sense (through other evil earthly empires) like before.

These crowns are symbolic of authority. But Satan has only 7 crowns and there are 10 kings. The beast has 10 crowns and there are 10 kings. I believe this is telling us that Satan gives authority to the 7 wicked kingdoms through history and that the beast gives gives authority to the 7 wicked kings.

Who is arguing with that?

You have not read what I said, and you are (deliberately I think) misrepresenting what I said. But I think every reader who is not prejudiced will understand what I said, and will not misrepresent the meaning as you are doing in your post above.

The text of Revelation 17 does not have John as being around to experience or witness the marveling of those who would be around when the beast reappeared, once having "ascended from the bottomless pit". You've chosen to believe that this is what the text is saying, but of course it's clear by the text that you are wrong. So you believe that the beast existed before John's day, did not exist in John's day, and yet still existed in John's day, and yet the same beast was thrown into the abyss with Satan before John received the Revelation.

So your understanding of it = "the beast which existed before John's time but did not exist in John's time and yet still existed in John's time, together with it's boss (Satan) have been running around merrily together all along, but with varying degrees of power, even though they are both bound together in the abyss at the moment, from whence the beast will come up again".

In one breath you agree in your posts that the beast (and beasts in scripture) represent human kingdoms (and their kings), but then you claim the beast is not human. So you refute your own arguments.

sovereigngrace · Dec 11, 2021

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
You have not read what I said, and you are (deliberately I think) misrepresenting what I said. But I think every reader who is not prejudiced will understand what I said, and will not misrepresent the meaning as you are doing in your post above.

The text of Revelation 17 does not have John as being around to experience or witness the marveling of those who would be around when the beast reappeared, once having "ascended from the bottomless pit". You've chosen to believe that this is what the text is saying, but of course it's clear by the text that you are wrong. So you believe that the beast existed before John's day, did not exist in John's day, and yet still existed in John's day, and yet the same beast was thrown into the abyss with Satan before John received the Revelation.

So your understanding of it = "the beast which existed before John's time but did not exist in John's time and yet still existed in John's time, together with it's boss (Satan) have been running around merrily together all along, but with varying degrees of power, even though they are both bound together in the abyss at the moment, from whence the beast will come up again".

In one breath you agree in your posts that the beast (and beasts in scripture) represent human kingdoms (and their kings), but then you claim the beast is not human. So you refute your own arguments.

I never misrepresented anything you said but quoted you accurately. So, your charge is unfair.

The beast/antichrist/mystery of iniquity has existed all along. Revelation 17:8, Revelation 17:9-13, 1 John 2:18-23, 1 John 4:1-3, 5-6, 2 John 8:7, 2 Thessalonians 2:7-12 prove my point. His mark has been around as he has! But in-between the first resurrection and Satan's little season the whole demonic host is shown to be in the abyss - a spiritual condition of restraint as the Gospel invades the nations. You know that is my view. You are guilty of what you are accusing me of. I quoted you accurately and showed how you are contradicting yourself, never mind the inspired text. Here is what I said about the ongoing existence of the beast:

This passage strongly shows that the beast existed prior to the day of John, stating, “the beast that was.” Notwithstanding, the terminology that follows appears slightly contradictory – “is not, and yet is.” One could be tempted to reason: it either is or else it isn’t, notwithstanding, this reading plainly says that it both “is” and “is not.” The import of the reading appears to demonstrate that the beast did exist in John’s day, and in fact, before John’s day, but that it had not fully developed into what it would eventually become. There is a saying in Northern Ireland that appears to explain this reading – ‘He is a big fellow, but a wee jacket fits him’ i.e. ‘he is not as big as he thinks he is’. This appears to be the meaning.

The beast “is not” because Satan and the beast no longer exercises complete unchallenged control over the nations as he once did before the cross. Revelation 13:1-4 shows that at some stage in history one of the beast’s heads were “wounded” thus incapacitating this evil ogre. This can only refer to the cross and Christ’s great victory over the kingdom of darkness. This transaction placed chains upon the rebellious principalities and powers which remain until Satan’s little season.

The beast “is” (at the time of John's writing) because even though Christ spiritual bound him at the cross, he was allowed to continue to operate for a prescribed period, albeit under very definite limits which God has divinely set. These cannot be penetrated.

When are you going to respond to the remainder of my post?

sovereigngrace · Dec 11, 2021

DavidPT said:
Your rebuts are meaningless until you first explain how it is reasonable that satan sets out to deceive billions that are already deceived before he is even supposed to deceive them.

This is a moot argument. For the record, deceived people can be deceived over and over again. Sorry you do not believe that.

Zao is life · Dec 11, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
I never misrepresented anything you said but quoted you accurately. So, your charge is unfair.

The beast/antichrist/mystery of iniquity has existed all along. Revelation 17:8, Revelation 17:9-13, 1 John 2:18-23, 1 John 4:1-3, 5-6, 2 John 8:7, 2 Thessalonians 2:7-12 prove my point. His mark has been around as he has! But in-between the first resurrection and Satan's little season the whole demonic host is shown to be in the abyss - a spiritual condition of restraint as the Gospel invades the nations. You know that is my view. You are guilty of what you are accusing me of. I quoted you accurately and showed how you are contradicting yourself, never mind the inspired text. Here is what I said about the ongoing existence of the beast:

This passage strongly shows that the beast existed prior to the day of John, stating, “the beast that was.” Notwithstanding, the terminology that follows appears slightly contradictory – “is not, and yet is.” One could be tempted to reason: it either is or else it isn’t, notwithstanding, this reading plainly says that it both “is” and “is not.” The import of the reading appears to demonstrate that the beast did exist in John’s day, and in fact, before John’s day, but that it had not fully developed into what it would eventually become. There is a saying in Northern Ireland that appears to explain this reading – ‘He is a big fellow, but a wee jacket fits him’ i.e. ‘he is not as big as he thinks he is’. This appears to be the meaning.

The beast “is not” because Satan and the beast no longer exercises complete unchallenged control over the nations as he once did before the cross. Revelation 13:1-4 shows that at some stage in history one of the beast’s heads were “wounded” thus incapacitating this evil ogre. This can only refer to the cross and Christ’s great victory over the kingdom of darkness. This transaction placed chains upon the rebellious principalities and powers which remain until Satan’s little season.

The beast “is” (at the time of John's writing) because even though Christ spiritual bound him at the cross, he was allowed to continue to operate for a prescribed period, albeit under very definite limits which God has divinely set. These cannot be penetrated.

When are you going to respond to the remainder of my post?

I can't keep answering your false assertions, which I have already answered in other posts. Until the basis of your assertions are correct, whatever you have built on top of them will be incorrect.

The 10 kings are human kings, and they did not come hopping out of the abyss, but they receive their seat, their power, and great authority from Satan (Revelation 13:1-2).

The the beast will figuratively "ascend out of the abyss" because the source of his power is the 10 kings who are handing over their power & authority to him (Revelation 17:12-13), and the source of the power of the 10 kings, is Satan (Revelation 13:1-2).

Also, nowhere does the Revelation say that the beast was ever thrown into the abyss. It says only that the beast will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Also, the beast that will figuratively ascend from the bottomless pit is the head of a human kingdom that existed before John's day, did not exist when John wrote, but would exist again eons later.

The longer you invent meaning of metaphor which the Bible does not provide with regard to what beasts and horns represent, the longer you will remain in your faulty interpretation of Revelation 13 and 17, which at this point appears rather convoluted.

sovereigngrace · Dec 11, 2021

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
I can't keep answering your false assertions, which I have already answered in other posts. Until the basis of your assertions are correct, whatever you have built on top of them will be incorrect.

The 10 kings are human kings, and they did not come hopping out of the abyss, but they receive their seat, their power, and great authority from Satan (Revelation 13:1-2).

The the beast will figuratively "ascend out of the abyss" because the source of his power is the 10 kings who are handing over their power & authority to him (Revelation 17:12-13), and the source of the power of the 10 kings, is Satan (Revelation 13:1-2).

Also, nowhere does the Revelation say that the beast was ever thrown into the abyss. It says only that the beast will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Also, the beast that will figuratively ascend from the bottomless pit is the head of a human kingdom that existed before John's day, did not exist when John wrote, but would exist again eons later.

The longer you invent meaning of metaphor which the Bible does not provide with regard to what beasts and horns represent, the longer you will remain in your faulty interpretation of Revelation 13 and 17, which at this point appears rather convoluted.

Not so! You've ducked around numerous points I presented that forbid your position. The reader can judge for themselves.

Saying you are living in denial; can you explain how the beast somehow got into the abyss according to your teaching?

grafted branch · Dec 11, 2021

Guojing said:
So would you consider yourself as part of the "Israel that is saved by faith"?

I consider myself a person that is saved by grace.

I think the terms being used were meant for the time period between the cross and AD70. A time period where that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

DavidPT · Dec 11, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
For the record, deceived people can be deceived over and over again. Sorry you do not believe that. This is a moot argument.

I'm sure they can, but that still misses the point the fact satan is bound so that the nations are no longer deceived, and that those in Revelation 20:8, where perhaps billions are meant, they are being deceived during the thousand years, per Amil. Why are they being deceived during the thousand years, billions of them? Amil would make more sense if billions wren't already being deceived once satan is loosed. The only ones that wouldn't already be deceived when satan is loosed are the saved. Should we then assume that satan deceives the saved, and that the saved then wage war against the saved? But that would equal a kingdom divided against itself can't stand. I fully realize Amils are not saying this nor suggesting this, that the saved attack the saved, nor am I saying they are. I'm just trying to logically reason through some of these things is all.

claninja · Dec 11, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
You seem to overlook what the Lord taught in Matthew 25:14: “For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.”

We find parallel accounts in Mark 13 and Luke 19. In Mark’s account we learn: “For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch” (Mark 13:34).

In Luke 19:12-13 we read: “A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.”

on the contrary, this has not been “overlooked”. I believe these “Minas” and “authority” refer to the gifts given by Christ for the spreading of the gospel and the building up of the church. These “Minas” to whom more will be given are secrets of the kingdom of God according to mark 13. This “authority” being the gifts given by Christ upon his as ascension in order to judge the household.

Ephesians 4:8 Therefore it says,“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”

ephesians 4:11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherdsc and teachers,d 12to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,

mark 13:11-12 11And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away

sovereigngrace said:
As we piece these 3 accounts together we grasp the fulness of the whole parable. Here Christ is speaking of the intra-Advent period. He is talking about the kingdom authority that was delegated to God’s people during the intra-Advent period. These servants were given “authority” and ordered to “Occupy till I come.”

not sure about the “occupy”, but yes, absolutely agree this refers to the intra-advert period.

and what are the faithful servants bestowed with upon the king/masters return? Does their “authority” stay the same or is it changed? And WHEN is it changed, prior to the masters return or when the master returns?

Authority over cities
Luke 19:17 17And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant!cBecause you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have authority over ten cities.’

being put in charge over much more
Matthew 25:21 21His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant.e You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.

sovereigngrace said:
This comes after a long protracted period where their service would be accounted.

now, this is probably your best counterpoint. You could add verses like the bridegroom “delayed” (matthew 25:5) or the master “delayed” (matthew 24:48).

however, while these “parables” mention a delayed and long time coming of Christ, the epistles demonstrate that it is untenable that this long time should be understood as thousands of years, as such contradicts the words of the apostles:

1.) Paul declared the time had been shortened and the world was passing away, and that the end of the ages had come upon them.

1 corinthians 7:29-31 this is what I mean, brothers: the appointed time has grown very short. From now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none, 30and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no goods, 31and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

2.) the author of Hebrews stated Christ would come in a “little” while, without delay.

Hebrews 10:36-37 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised. 37For, “Yet a little while,
and the coming one will come and will not delay; but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back,
my soul has no pleasure in him

3.) James, using a perfect tense verb stated the coming of Christ “had drawn near”

James 5:8-9 8You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. 9Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door.

4.) and while Peter mentions scoffers in the “last days”, Peter also declared in acts, that it was the last days, in his 1st epistle, that the end of all things “had drawn near” (perfect tense).

acts 2:16-17 And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,

1 Peter 4:7 7The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers.

5.) per John, it was the last hour:

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come.

sovereigngrace said:
In fact, the duration of the intra-Advent period is so long that the religious cynics mock the reality and realization of the second coming.

well this makes no sense. If Jesus meant thousands of years until his coming, why would cynics mock it saying “where is his coming?”

However, If the expectation was that Christ was coming literally soon, but instead it’s been thousands of years and he hasn’t shown up, then yes, cynics scoffing “where is his coming?” Makes sense.

sovereigngrace said:
Amils believe that Revelation 20 describes the intra-Advent period. This indeed is a long indefinite period in between the first coming and second coming of Jesus. They believe that thousand years is a long extended figurative period that will be followed by a season of final persecution before the end.

This all negates the Preterist paradigm that is fixated with the coming of Titus in AD70.

and such Amil belief, that the millennium consists of thousands of years prior to the coming of Christ, is contradicting to the words of the apostles, which demonstrated they believed it had literally drawn near and would occur literally in a little while.

sovereigngrace · Dec 11, 2021

DavidPT said:
I'm sure they can, but that still misses the point the fact satan is bound so that the nations are no longer deceived, and that those in Revelation 20:8, where perhaps billions are meant, they are being deceived during the thousand years, per Amil. Why are they being deceived during the thousand years, billions of them? Amil would make more sense if billions wren't already being deceived once satan is loosed. The only ones that wouldn't already be deceived when satan is loosed are the saved. Should we then assume that satan deceives the saved, and that the saved then wage war against the saved? But that would equal a kingdom divided against itself can't stand. I fully realize Amils are not saying this nor suggesting this, that the saved attack the saved, nor am I saying they are. I'm just trying to logically reason through some of these things is all.

You are always trying your best to misrepresent Amil, but this achieves nothing but removing credibility from your posts. You are totally selective in your reasoning.

The fact is, the Bible makes general sweeping statements regarding the darkened Gentiles as a whole before Christ came. They "were without Christ ... aliens from the commonwealth of Israel ... strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world" before the First Advent, "but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

Is this is telling us that every single Gentile had “no hope,” and were "without Christ" and “without God” in the Old Testament? Of course not! When it said the Gentiles were in darkness – did that mean every one of them where? Of course not. There were many Gentiles saved in the Old Testament. It is a generality. Scripture commonly speaks in general terms. Everybody knows that.

Does this passage teach that “by the blood of Christ” all Gentiles “are made nigh” or brought into a relationship with Christ? Of course not. This is telling us that the Gospel opportunity is now open to the Gentiles since the cross. They are no longer ignorant or without hope, as before. Through the sinless life, atoning death, and glorious first resurrection, the light shone upon the darkened Gentiles. They are now without excuse! Gentiles have the same ability to embrace Christ today as Israelis did before the First Advent. This is not a difficult biblical truth to grasp - if you do not have a theological agenda.

In Matthew 12 we see the religious Jews rejecting Christ. Matthew 12:14-22 records, “Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him. But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; And charged them that they should not make him known: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.”

Is this is telling us that every single Gentile will trust in the Lord? Of course not! It is a generality. Everybody knows that.

The enlightenment of the Gentiles saw the blinding of Israel. 2 Corinthians 3:13-18 says, "And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ."

Does this mean every single Israeli during this new covenant ear is blinded? Of course not. It is a generalization. If you want to go down the road you do with your uncorroborative opinion of Revelation 20 then you need to take the rest hyper-literalists. Everybody knows that.

What about Acts 2:16-18? It says: “And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.”

Is this teaching that the Holy Spirit will literally be poured out on every single human being in the last days? Of course not. Everybody knows that. These are biblical generalities, just like Revelation 20.

Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

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