Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[sovereigngrace]

It's a pleasure, and thank you for your detailed responses.

You asked what my understanding of the beast was, and I decided, not only for your sake, but as a general "announcement" to anyone else who might read what I wrote, to begin by making it abundantly clear what I do not believe the beast is or represents, and then to go onto what I do believe the beast represents, biblically.


I wasn't interpreting Isaiah 7 by applying it to the beast, or making any presumptions at all, if that's what you mean.

I was using the verses to illustrate why I say that biblically the "head" of any beast (kingdom) is not only it's king, nor only its region (as in "seven mountains" or the seven kingdoms which you listed in your reply), but also its capital city where its power is concentrated.

I was merely using the kingdom of Judea as an example of a kingdom that had received a mortal wound to its "head" and rose again in another eon.

Revelation 9: From what you have written I can gather that one of the places where you and I differ in our understanding, is in that I do not see the beast as rising from the bottomless pit in the sense that the bottomless pit is where "the beast" (the human kingdom) "was" or "is".

I see the beast as a human kingdom which rises from the bottomless pit in the sense that the demonic forces that come out of the bottomless pit when it is opened, with Satan as their ruler, will give the beast its/his seat, power and great authority.

Revelation 13 makes it clear that the beast receives its/his power from Satan. Satan gives it/him its/his power. The beast itself is a human kingdom. No human is going to come hopping out from the abyss. The beast ascends out of the abyss in a figurative sense because it receives its power, its seat and great authority from Satan, and is controlled by the demonic forces that come out of the abyss when the abyss is opened.

Conflating the beast with Satan and the demonic forces behind the beast leads to amalgamating the two (which the Revelation keeps distinct from one another), and leads to the belief that humans are going to come hopping out of the abyss when it opens (the beast is a human kingdom deriving its power from Satan).

"Was and is not and yet is"​

We also differ as to your belief that the beast existed in John's day. But because I've already answered that in my previous reply in Post #1304, I won't repeat it here again. Suffice to say that we remain in disagreement regarding this. I do not believe the text is saying what you believe it is saying, and I've made my understanding of the text clear in Post #1304.

Even so, I agree basically with the following,albeit for different reasons:


Whether you realize this or not, what you are basically saying in your post is that "the kingdoms of this world" have till now never been "the kingdoms our Lord and of His Christ" (Revelation 11:15). I couldn't agree more. The Kingdom of Christ exists IN the world, but it is not OF this world (John 18:36; 2 Corinthians 4:4).


Your timing is not in the text of scripture. Scripture talks about the beast that will ascend from the bottomless pit going to perdition. It talks about it being cast into the LOF when Christ returns and defeats it. The word "perdition" only appears in these verses:

John 17:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3
Revelation 17:8
Revelation 17:11

The text in the Revelation definitely does not agree with your timing for the beast going into perdition. You have placed it in the past tense, which is Pretersim, but the scriptures do not place it in the past tense.

I could be wrong but you seem to be once again conflating the beast with Satan, amalgamating the two when the Revelation makes a very clear distinction between the one and the other, and I could be wrong but I think you are conflating the two because you believe Satan was bound and cast into the abyss at Calvary, and so you have "the beast" going into perdition.

But the text in the Revelation does not say that (at all).

Again, Satan is not the beast, and the beast is not Satan. No human is in the abyss or in tartaroo, and the beast is a metaphor for a kingdom made up of humans.

The 7th head or mountain and the 8th king.​

Unless I misunderstood your post about this, It seems you have the above two existing in chronological order, but the Revelation makes it abundantly clear that they exist simultaneously, because the 6th king existed during John's day, and the seventh was not yet come, but would be the final kingdom. It's therefore only logical that the 10 kings who hand over their power and authority to the beast that rises from the abyss, who is the 8th king, are the seventh "head" or "king"/kingdom, and exist simultaneously with the beast.

If you believe this is not the case, then which head do you have the 10 kings being linked to?

In closing

I fear we will remain in disagreement in our understanding of some things (though we are in agreement on other things, including your list of kingdoms).

I believe we will remain in disagreement in our understanding because it is clear when you say, that you are conflating the beast with Satan, and have amalgamated the beast with the power behind it/him.

Not only so, but you have this occurring at Calvary, at a time when Satan was defeated and cast down to the earth, where he went to make war against "the rest of the woman's seed who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Revelation 12:17).

Thank you for your time though, it is appreciated. The subject we ended up on in our discussion (Revelation 17 and 13) is only loosely linked to the subject of your OP in Post #1, but as with that subject in Post #1, it's also a subject that is bound to be accompanied with differing opinions because of different angles of approach influenced by varying underlying understandings regarding other parts of scripture.

Revelation has several parallels (or recapitulations) covering the period preceding the return of Christ. Parallels are simply different camera views of the same corresponding intra-Advent period. They look at different aspects of the great spiritual battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness, righteousness and evil, truth and deceit, and light and darkness. It shows Christ (and His Church) victor over every expression of the demonic realm - over Satan, the beast, the false prophet and the demons. Each parallel winds down with the release of the kingdom of darkness from the abyss restraint before the second coming. We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, the false prophet in Revelation 13:11 and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released from their spiritual restraint before the second coming for a little season.

Whether you realize this or not, what you are basically saying in your post is that "the kingdoms of this world" have till now never been "the kingdoms our Lord and of His Christ" (Revelation 11:15)

. I couldn't agree more. The Kingdom of Christ exists IN the world, but it is not OF this world (John 18:36; 2 Corinthians 4:4).

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

There is clearly a major dilemma here for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. They must surely concede, if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also refers to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life. After all Revelation 10 plainly records that with this particular event “there should be time no longer.” For those who would lightly dismiss this important narrative as anything other than a magnificent picture of the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious Second Coming, they do foolishly ignore the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject and divorce the undoubted harmony of this chapter from the rest of New Testament prophetic teaching.

We must first of all recognize, this is the second of seven similar symbolic parallels relating to intra-advent period, each of which take us up to the one final future all-consummating Coming of Christ (the day of God’s wrath) and the end of the world (when time shall undoubtedly be no more). This pattern of repeating the record of the same event from different angles is common throughout Scripture on most themes, none more that the glorious Coming of Christ.

The third parallel in Revelation 11:15 also makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the Pretribulationist doctrine.

The respective chronological views dismiss the correct translation “there should be time no longer” and replace it by ‘there should be no more delay’. However, those who do such are still faced with insurmountable mountains, some of which we have already highlighted. Moreover, this is an undoubted forced interpretation, which must be opposed on several fronts.

Firstly, this is undoubtedly the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ – the end – it has absolutely nothing to do with delaying the days.

Secondly, the King James Version interprets the passage correctly and in context: “chronos ouketi estai”

‘Time - no longer – there shall be’!!!

Thirdly, the above interpretation of the Greek in this passage is in perfect and harmonious agreement with their consistent usage everywhere else in Scripture. Those who interpret it otherwise probably do so in an attempt to justify the Pre-mil theory, and the myriads of goats that their paradigm produces during their millennium.

Also, the interpretation of these Greek words in this passage, in the AV, is in clear and absolute agreement with their consistent usage throughout the rest of Scripture. Those therefore who interpret it otherwise probably do so to explain away the undoubted finality of the second coming or to support the inconsistent Pre-mil theory. The word chronos in this reading, which is rendered “time” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of “time” or “times” in Scripture.

The next verse, verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

One cannot help but note the finality attached to the sounding of the seventh trumpet. This is particularly striking when you then compare this to the trumpet passages that connect to the second coming of the Lord. The link is unquestionable.

Whichever way you look at it, there is an unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet. This corresponds with the conclusiveness associated with Second Coming passages elsewhere in Scripture. Let us look at some of the all-consummating detail.

 

[Bob_1000]

The text does not say they are the firstfruits of them that slept, it says Christ is the firstfruits of them that slept. Why are you not accepting what the text actually says? It should have been translated as "firstfruit" to avoid confusion, but, regardless, the text says that Christ Himself is the firstfruits (of them that slept) and it does NOT say that "them that slept" or anyone else are the firstfruits.

Actually I am letting the text say exactly what it says, you're the one trying to make firstfuits singular, you even suggested that the bible wrong for using firstfruitS. So there ya go.

I think the problem is that you don't understand that the Old Testament saints were the body of Christ but that term is never used for them in the Bible because the existence of the church in the Old Testament was a secret.

So when you read "Christ is risen" it doesn't even enter into your mind that the verse could be referring to the Old Testament body of Christ and not to Christ himself. Honestly we have no way of knowing which is being referred to until we come to FIRSTFRUITS and then we know it's talking about the Old Testament body of Christ.... And that's the word you want to toss out.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

There is clearly a major dilemma here for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. They must surely concede, if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also refers to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life. After all Revelation 10 plainly records that with this particular event “there should be time no longer.” For those who would lightly dismiss this important narrative as anything other than a magnificent picture of the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious Second Coming, they do foolishly ignore the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject and divorce the undoubted harmony of this chapter from the rest of New Testament prophetic teaching.

I couldn't agree more. Another thing that occurs to me about the Revelation 10:5-7 passage is that it says "the mystery of God should be finished" at the seventh trumpet. Does it really make sense that 1,000 more years of history plus Satan's little season would follow the mystery of God being finished? What would actually be finished at the seventh trumpet in that case? Not much. In the Amil view, a lot of things will be finished at that point including sin, death, pain, crying, sorrow, etc. To Amils the mystery of God will truly be finished at the seventh trumpet. There will be no more mysteries at that point. Everything will be made known and secrets will be revealed.

The next verse, verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

One cannot help but note the finality attached to the sounding of the seventh trumpet. This is particularly striking when you then compare this to the trumpet passages that connect to the second coming of the Lord. The link is unquestionable.

Whichever way you look at it, there is an unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet. This corresponds with the conclusiveness associated with Second Coming passages elsewhere in Scripture. Let us look at some of the all-consummating detail.

Agree. It seems to me that Premils completely overlook or ignore Revelation 11:18. It indicates that at the seventh trumpet it will be "the time of the dead, that they should be judged". Isn't it clear that the dead are judged AFTER the thousand years and Satan's little season (Revelation 20:11-15)? I believe so. That means the seventh trumpet will sound AFTER the thousand years and Satan's little season.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Actually I am letting the text say exactly what it says,

No, you're not. The text says that Christ Himself is the firstfruits (of them that slept). You're trying to say that more than Christ Himself represent the firstfruits, but the text absolutely does not say that.

you're the one trying to make firstfuits singular, you even suggested that the bible wrong for using firstfruitS. So there ya go.

You do understand that the original Bible manuscripts were not written in English, right?

I think the problem is that you don't understand that the Old Testament saints were the body of Christ but that term is never used for them in the Bible because the existence of the church in the Old Testament was a secret.

Their souls are in heaven with Christ now. They have not yet been bodily resurrected. All dead believers from all-time will be resurrected at Christ's second coming in the future at the last trumpet. That's what you're not getting.

So when you read "Christ is risen" it doesn't even enter into your mind that the verse could be referring to the Old Testament body of Christ and not to Christ himself.

No, of course not. Christ is Christ, not the body of Christ. Or else it would say the body of Christ, but it doesn't.

Honestly we have no way of knowing which is being referred to until we come to FIRSTFRUITS and then we know it's talking about the Old Testament body of Christ.... And that's the word you want to toss out.

What you're not getting is "them that slept" are the Old Testament body of Christ and it says Christ Himself is the firstfruits of them that slept. You're acting as if "them that slept" are the firstfruits, but it does not say that. You're not accepting the text as written. You're getting thrown off by the word "firstfruits", thinking it's plural and talking about more than Christ Himself and that's unfortunate. Saying that Christ was the firstfruits is the same thing as saying that Christ was the first to rise from the dead, as it says in Acts 26:23.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I couldn't agree more. Another thing that occurs to me about the Revelation 10:5-7 passage is that it says "the mystery of God should be finished" at the seventh trumpet. Does it really make sense that 1,000 more years of history plus Satan's little season would follow the mystery of God being finished? What would actually be finished at the seventh trumpet in that case? Not much. In the Amil view, a lot of things will be finished at that point including sin, death, pain, crying, sorrow, etc. To Amils the mystery of God will truly be finished at the seventh trumpet. There will be no more mysteries at that point. Everything will be made known and secrets will be revealed.

Agree. It seems to me that Premils completely overlook or ignore Revelation 11:18. It indicates that at the seventh trumpet it will be "the time of the dead, that they should be judged". Isn't it clear that the dead are judged AFTER the thousand years and Satan's little season (Revelation 20:11-15)? I believe so. That means the seventh trumpet will sound AFTER the thousand years and Satan's little season.

Agreed. Look at 1 Corinthians 13:9-12: “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then [Gr. tote] that which is in part shall be done away … For now [Gr. arti] we see through a glass, darkly; but then [Gr. tote] face to face: now [Gr. arti] I know in part; but then [Gr. tote] shall I know even as also I am known.”

Where ever you look in the New Testament you see this two-age-model at work. Various comparable phrases are employed to divide “this age” from “the age to come.”

Today:

(1) We know in part
(2) We see through a glass, darkly

Then (face to face):

(1) “That which is in part shall be done away”
(2) “when that which is perfect is come … then shall I know even as also I am known.”

We can therefore clearly assume that this is no minor insignificant occasion, but some glorious all-consummating event. It is of such a monumental magnitude that its arrival ensures “the mystery of God should be finished.” Moreover, its appearance also finally brings about “that there should be time no longer.”

Undoubtedly, there is only one significant impending event that is repeatedly advanced in Scripture that causes the final termination of the plan and purpose of God for “time,” and which concludes the mystery of God forever, namely the one final future all-consummating Coming of Christ. This event sees the conclusion of the plan of God and the total destruction of the world/wicked and a general resurrection/judgment. It is undoubtedly an all-consummating event.

 

[Zao is life]

There is clearly a major dilemma here for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events.

Me, or those? I'm not one of "those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events." So I have no dilemma.

To be honest I don't know why you even mentioned it (as though I had ever asserted that "the Revelation is a literal chronological unfolding of last day events."). I can only reason that maybe you did so because you're hoping that bringing up a different subject or aspect regarding the Revelation to the subjects we were discussing somehow negates my understanding of the other subjects which I shared in my previous posts?

If so, changing the subject in this way failed, because I have never regarded the Revelation as "a literal chronological unfolding of last day events." but rather as a book that has several parallels (or recapitulations) covering the period preceding the return of Christ.

Revelation has several parallels (or recapitulations) covering the period preceding the return of Christ.

You took the words out of my mouth. So let me say, I believe that the Revelation has several parallels (or recapitulations) covering the period preceding the return of Christ.

That's my view and my understanding of the Revelation, of everything from chapter 6 through chapter 11, and chapter 13 through chapter 19. I believe chapter 12 is giving an overview of the actors or characters of the scenes in chapter 6 through 11 and 13 through 19, from the time of Calvary until the time of the end, i.e the intra-Advent period.

Chapter 20 I will talk about (again) later on below.

Revelation has several parallels (or recapitulations) covering the period preceding the return of Christ.
Parallels are simply different camera views of the same corresponding intra-Advent period.

That seems like contradictory statements to me. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not sure now whether you believe that the Revelation has several parallels (or recapitulations) covering the period preceding the return of Christ, or whether you believe that it covers the entire intra-Advent period.

They look at different aspects of the great spiritual battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness, righteousness and evil, truth and deceit, and light and darkness. It shows Christ (and His Church) victor over every expression of the demonic realm - over Satan, the beast, the false prophet and the demons. Each parallel winds down with the release of the kingdom of darkness from the abyss restraint before the second coming. We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, the false prophet in Revelation 13:11 and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released from their spiritual restraint before the second coming for a little season.

I agree. I'm still bemused as to why you suddenly changed the subject regarding what you and I were discussing by bringing all this up, but let's continue through your post:-

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

Sure, it's the end of time. I agree. But it's also the end of the 42 months of the reign of the beast, and I believe that it definitely and most certainly does complement Daniel 12:7:

"And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was on the waters of the river, when he held up his right and his left hand to Heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half. And when they have made an end of scattering the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished."

"And the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the earth lifted his hand to the heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created the heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there should no longer be time. But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he will begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He has declared to His servants the prophets." (Revelation 10:5-7).

Therefore it is both the end of the 42-month reign of the beast and the end of time.

With that in mind, allow me to first go back to your (seemingly) contradictory statements, and then come back to tell you what my understanding is:

Revelation has several parallels (or recapitulations) covering the period preceding the return of Christ.
Parallels are simply different camera views of the same corresponding intra-Advent period.

The first three chapters of the Revelation are clearly written to the churches which existed at the time, whom the Lord was addressing i.e the churches to whom the messages are addressed, but with all churches in mind that existed then, and would exist from that time onward, to the end of time or the end of the Age (which I believe both - the end of the Age and the end of time - arrive at the same time, as I've stated). What the Lord says to one church, He says to all churches. So the first three chapters cover the entire intra-advent period.

Chapter 12 also covers the entire intra-advent period. It's telling us about the characters in the scenes which are written in the scroll, beginning with Calvary, which scenes (in the scroll) are introduced in a symbolic way with the opening of each seal, which seals are introduced in chapter 5, which is preceded by a general introduction to the rest of the Revelation that follows the initial seven messages to seven churches (chapter 4).

We're still not viewing "a chronological unfolding of last day events." I have no dilemma in this regard.

* The scroll only unravels for us to see its contents when the 7th seal is opened. No scroll can be seen or read until every seal which seals it has been opened.

Each seal gives us a clue as to the meaning of things written about in the scroll, because the entire Revelation is signified: And He signified it by sending His angel to His servant John" (Revelation 1:1).

The Revelation from chapter 6 through 11 and 13 through 19 does indeed:

Revelation has several parallels (or recapitulations) covering the period preceding the return of Christ

. In fact, those chapters are all talking about the final 42 months preceding the return of Christ, and indeed the Revelation has several parallels (or recapitulations).

But what all Amillennialists fail to admit is that none of the above facts prove or support anything they (Amillennialists) say regarding Revelation 20.

Amillennoaists must surely concede that none of the above facts somehow magically place Revelation 20 into a parallel time-period with the rest of the chapters which precede it.

Amillennialists must surely concede that placing Revelation 20 where Amillennialists have it, can only be done by assuming that the "thousand years" spoken about in Revelation 20 commences before anyone could refuse to worship the beast written about in Revelation 13, or his image, or receive his mark or the number of his name.

Amillennialists must surely concede that if Revelation 20 fits anywhere before the return of Christ, then its an entirely different beast being spoken of than the one mentioned in chapters 13 and 17, regarding which a demand was made that all worship it/him and its/his image or take its/his mark or the number of its/his name.

This is clearly a major dilemma for those who place Revelation 20 with the chapters which precede it, which Amillennialists are loathe to admit.

For my part, I now accept that I don't understand everything, and though I believe the return of Christ is indeed the end of time and the NHNE is ushered in immediately following His return, I do not bury my head in the sand regarding the obvious contradictions in the symbolic millennium view, even though it leaves me with cognitive dissonance until God allows me to understand.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Me, or those? I'm not one of "those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events." So I have no dilemma.

To be honest I don't know why you even mentioned it (as though I had ever asserted that "the Revelation is a literal chronological unfolding of last day events."). I can only reason that maybe you did so because you're hoping that bringing up a different subject or aspect regarding the Revelation to the subjects we were discussing somehow negates my understanding of the other subjects which I shared in my previous posts?

If so, changing the subject in this way failed, because I have never regarded the Revelation as "a literal chronological unfolding of last day events." but rather as a book that has several parallels (or recapitulations) covering the period preceding the return of Christ.

You took the words out of my mouth. So let me say, I believe that the Revelation has several parallels (or recapitulations) covering the period preceding the return of Christ.

That's my view and my understanding of the Revelation, of everything from chapter 6 through chapter 11, and chapter 13 through chapter 19. I believe chapter 12 is giving an overview of the actors or characters of the scenes in chapter 6 through 11 and 13 through 19, from the time of Calvary until the time of the end, i.e the intra-Advent period.

Chapter 20 I will talk about (again) later on below.

That seems like contradictory statements to me. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not sure now whether you believe that the Revelation has several parallels (or recapitulations) covering the period preceding the return of Christ, or whether you believe that it covers the entire intra-Advent period.


I agree. I'm still bemused as to why you suddenly changed the subject regarding what you and I were discussing by bringing all this up, but let's continue through your post:-

Sure, it's the end of time. I agree. But it's also the end of the 42 months of the reign of the beast, and I believe that it definitely and most certainly does complement Daniel 12:7:

"And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was on the waters of the river, when he held up his right and his left hand to Heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half. And when they have made an end of scattering the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished."

"And the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the earth lifted his hand to the heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created the heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there should no longer be time. But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he will begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He has declared to His servants the prophets." (Revelation 10:5-7).

Therefore it is both the end of the 42-month reign of the beast and the end of time.

With that in mind, allow me to first go back to your (seemingly) contradictory statements, and then come back to tell you what my understanding is:

The first three chapters of the Revelation are clearly written to the churches which existed at the time, whom the Lord was addressing i.e the churches to whom the messages are addressed, but with all churches in mind that existed then, and would exist from that time onward, to the end of time or the end of the Age (which I believe both - the end of the Age and the end of time - arrive at the same time, as I've stated). What the Lord says to one church, He says to all churches. So the first three chapters cover the entire intra-advent period.

Chapter 12 also covers the entire intra-advent period. It's telling us about the characters in the scenes which are written in the scroll, beginning with Calvary, which scenes (in the scroll) are introduced in a symbolic way with the opening of each seal, which seals are introduced in chapter 5, which is preceded by a general introduction to the rest of the Revelation that follows the initial seven messages to seven churches (chapter 4).

We're still not viewing "a chronological unfolding of last day events." I have no dilemma in this regard.

* The scroll only unravels for us to see its contents when the 7th seal is opened. No scroll can be seen or read until every seal which seals it has been opened.

Each seal gives us a clue as to the meaning of things written about in the scroll, because the entire Revelation is signified: And He signified it by sending His angel to His servant John" (Revelation 1:1).

The Revelation from chapter 6 through 11 and 13 through 19 does indeed: . In fact, those chapters are all talking about the final 42 months preceding the return of Christ, and indeed the Revelation has several parallels (or recapitulations).

Ok, so up until this we are largely in agreement.

But what all Amillennialists fail to admit is that none of the above facts prove or support anything they (Amillennialists) say regarding Revelation 20.

Amillennoaists must surely concede that none of the above facts somehow magically place Revelation 20 into a parallel time-period with the rest of the chapters which precede it.

Amillennialists must surely concede that placing Revelation 20 where Amillennialists have it, can only be done by assuming that the "thousand years" spoken about in Revelation 20 commences before anyone could refuse to worship the beast written about in Revelation 13, or his image, or receive his mark or the number of his name.

Amillennialists must surely concede that if Revelation 20 fits anywhere before the return of Christ, then its an entirely different beast being spoken of than the one mentioned in chapters 13 and 17, regarding which a demand was made that all worship it/him and its/his image or take its/his mark or the number of its/his name.

In one breath you have time ending at the second coming (as Scripture teaches) and in the next breath you have re-starting up after the second coming. Frankly, this is absurd.

I have showed you various explicit Scripture to prove that the beast has been alive and kicking (albeit in a spiritual prison) since the First Advent. Hello! You refuse to accept that. Maybe it is because it interferes with your theology. Amils believe there will be an intensification of persecution as the restraint is taken of the beast at the end. You also avoid that.

The fact that the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, the false prophet in Revelation 13:11 and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 are all released from their spiritual restraint in the abyss before the second coming for a little season shows that they were obviously placed there previously. Multiple NT Scripture shows the First Advent as th time of subjugation for the demonic realm.

You give lip service to the fact the abyss is a spiritual prison. That is why Satan can still function on this earth and do his evil against those who align with him. The reality is, prisoners can still do harm in a prison. A fierce dog on a chain can still do harm to those who get close to it.

There is multiple New Testament Scripture to support the Amil position and the current binding of Satan. You must sidestep all this to sustain your own argument. Premil on the other hand has zero corroboration for its theory. That is damning for the doctrine. I showed you Scripture that proved he was spiritually bound in spiritual chains (Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22), but you again dismissed this inspired text because it negates Premil. 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. Revelation 9 also describes an abyss that is full of wicked spirits that are restrained, but will be released prior to the second coming for a short season.

Spiritual binding is speaking about putting him in spiritual chains (Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22). We are looking at spiritual restraint. Satan is currently in a spiritual prison since the first resurrection until the last trumpet (see Revelation 9 and Revelation 20). So is his minions including the beast. This corresponds with Satan being cast out of heaven with his minions toward earth (John 12:31-33 and Revelation 12:5-11).

This is clearly a major dilemma for those who place Revelation 20 with the chapters which precede it, which Amillennialists are loathe to admit.

For my part, I now accept that I don't understand everything, and though I believe the return of Christ is indeed the end of time and the NHNE is ushered in immediately following His return, I do not bury my head in the sand regarding the obvious contradictions in the symbolic millennium view, even though it leaves me with cognitive dissonance until God allows me to understand.

This is all theological posturing. It is totally moot. It is mere opinion.

What you cannot show is that, sin, death, sickness, wickedness, the wicked and Satan survive the coming of the Lord. You also cannot show us any corroboration for time continuing after the end of time at the return of Jesus. What is more, you have no corroboration to support your belief that Satan will be bound for 1000 years after the second coming and then he will be released to deceive the wicked in their billions as the sand of the sea and surround Jesus and the glorified saints. That is because it will never happen. It is a Premillennial invention.

 

[Zao is life]

I am not conflating the beast with Satan and the demonic forces. I am conflating the fate of Satan, the beast and the demonic forces. I do not appreciate you keeping repeating this false charge. You are adding 2+2 and getting 22.

Thank you for clearing that up. It did seem as though you were implying what you say I falsely accused you of:

The beast did exist in John's day. He did not die. He does not die. In both Revelation 17:8 and Revelation 17:11-13 John testified: "he is." He is the spirit behind the evil empire of the world. In the context of Scripture, he seems to represent empires that ruled over natural Israel. Of course, this is symbolism.

When it says "is not, even he is" it means he did not have the power, influence and freedom that he previous had.

The last sentence is the same thing you said about Satan, but here you are applying it to the beast. You also say of the beast that "He is the spirit behind the evil empire of the world".

To the reader (and I was the reader) these statements of yours certainly do seem to imply that you believe Satan and the beast are one and the same thing. But thank you for clearing that up.

I agree there are no humans in the abyss. But the beast is the wicked spiritual influence behind wicked human kingdoms from the beginning.

The text in the Revelation signifies that the beast is the wicked human kingdoms, but not the spirit behind them (which is Satan). There again it certainly does seem to the reader that you are conflating or Amalgamating Satan and the beast.

That is why the beast is placed in the abyss for a time with Satan and his other demons during the intra-Advent period. Interestingly, all of these are shown to be released for their final assault upon mankind before the climactic return of Christ.

Nowhere does the Revelation state that the beast has been "placed in the abyss with Satan".

You may have assumed that because of the statement regarding the beast "that was, and is not" ("was not" in John's day) once again appearing on the world scene when it (figuratively) "ascends out of the abyss". But this is a human kingdom, made up of humans and ruled by humans or by a human, and this human kingdom will have figuratively ascended out of the abyss when it is given power by Satan, and enabled by the demonic forces coming out of the abyss when the abyss when the abyss is opened).

The Revelation says only that it will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Not once does the Revelation mention it having been "thrown with Satan into the abyss". You are going beyond the text of the Revelation when you assert that. In fact the Revelation does not even say anything about Satan being "thrown into the abyss" until Revelation 20 @sovereigngrace Edit: .. where nothing is said about the beast being thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Zao is life]

Ok, so up until this we are largely in agreement.



In one breath you have time ending at the second coming (as Scripture teaches) and in the next breath you have re-starting up after the second coming. Frankly, this is absurd.

I have showed you various explicit Scripture to prove that the beast has been alive and kicking (albeit in a spiritual prison) since the First Advent. Hello! You refuse to accept that. Maybe it is because it interferes with your theology. Amils believe there will be an intensification of persecution as the restraint is taken of the beast at the end. You also avoid that.

The fact that the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, the false prophet in Revelation 13:11 and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 are all released from their spiritual restraint in the abyss before the second coming for a little season shows that they were obviously placed there previously. Multiple NT Scripture shows the First Advent as th time of subjugation for the demonic realm.

You give lip service to the fact the abyss is a spiritual prison. That is why Satan can still function on this earth and do his evil against those who align with him. The reality is, prisoners can still do harm in a prison. A fierce dog on a chain can still do harm to those who get close to it.

There is multiple New Testament Scripture to support the Amil position and the current binding of Satan. You must sidestep all this to sustain your own argument. Premil on the other hand has zero corroboration for its theory. That is damning for the doctrine. I showed you Scripture that proved he was spiritually bound in spiritual chains (Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22), but you again dismissed this inspired text because it negates Premil. 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. Revelation 9 also describes an abyss that is full of wicked spirits that are restrained, but will be released prior to the second coming for a short season.

Spiritual binding is speaking about putting him in spiritual chains (Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22). We are looking at spiritual restraint. Satan is currently in a spiritual prison since the first resurrection until the last trumpet (see Revelation 9 and Revelation 20). So is his minions including the beast. This corresponds with Satan being cast out of heaven with his minions toward earth (John 12:31-33 and Revelation 12:5-11).



This is all theological posturing. It is totally moot. It is mere opinion.

What you cannot show is that, sin, death, sickness, wickedness, the wicked and Satan survive the coming of the Lord. You also cannot show us any corroboration for time continuing after the end of time at the return of Jesus. What is more, you have no corroboration to support your belief that Satan will be bound for 1000 years after the second coming and then he will be released to deceive the wicked in their billions as the sand of the sea and surround Jesus and the glorified saints. That is because it will never happen. It is a Premillennial invention.

It's your theological posturing above. The text of Revelation 12 never says Satan was thrown into the abyss. Not even once. The very first time the text of Revelation says that Satan is thrown into the abyss is in Revelation 20: after the beast, having been defeated by Christ upon His return, has been thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Amillennialists must surely concede that they must ignore the text of the Revelation and go beyond the text to have Satan in the abyss before the beast has been thrown into the LOF.

Amillennialists must surely concede that they must go beyond the text of the Revelation if they will have people beheaded for refusal to worship the beast or his image (or receive his mark or the number of his name) before the only beast mentioned in the Revelation (of which it is is said that anyone who refuses will be killed), has even risen from the abyss.

I concede that the thousand years cannot be literal. It could be a symbolic way of telling us that Satan will be released into the new Garden of Eden (the NHNE) in order to attempt to deceive, the way he was released into the first Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve were still living forever and ever in order to attempt to deceive.

But I also concede that I'm going beyond the text when I muse this way, and unlike Amillennialists, who must surely concede that they must go beyond the text to place Revelation 20 with the rest of the Revelation which comes before it (yet will not concede), whether you like it or not, or whether you call my points moot or not, or absurd or anything else, I'm honest with the text, therefore I must remain without an answer in a state of cognitive dissonance regarding Revelation 20 until God allows me to understand.

 

[Guojing]

I heard someone use the term “reconstitution theology” to describe those who think Old Testament Israel will be reconstituted by God. I don’t think it’s a widely used term but there are quite a few people who believe Israel was reconstituted in 1948.

Personally I think Israel will never again be considered a nation before God.

So my guess is that, the way you understand what Paul said in Romans 11:25-29. the Israel there refers to "spiritual Israel, aka the Body of Christ"?

 

[DavidPT]

. It could be a symbolic way of telling us that Satan will be released into the new Garden of Eden (the NHNE) in order to attempt to deceive, the way he was released into the first Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve were still living forever and ever in order to attempt to deceive.

You were saying something about this in an earlier post as well. What I would point out here, is this. The NHNE is what contains the new Jerusalem and not, they are one and the same. The reason I mention this, it would be the NJ that resembles the garden of Eden. In the garden of Eden the fall took place inside. satan was inside the garden of Eden. Per what Revelation 20 records, satan and those he deceives, are not anyone in the NJ nor is satan or anyone he deceives, inside of the NJ at the time. They are outside of it, thus it is an attack from the outside and not from within instead.

In the garden of Eden it was the ones inside that were being deceived. Currently pretty much everyone on the planet, except for saved Christians, are deceived and have continued to be deceived for the past 2000 years. This alone has Amil making no sense, as if satan is going to deceive the already deceived once he is loosed, as if that is supposed to make sense. Per Premil not one single person will be deceived during the thousand years, thus plenty of ppl for satan to deceive after the thousand years who are not deceived during the thousand years. Per Premil then, the logic is that satan deceives those no longer deceived. Per Amil, the logic is that satan deceives those already deceived. Are Amils instead going to argue that satan deceives the already saved when he is loosed? Are Amils going to argue that anyone who is not saved, that they are not deceived?

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


You don't deceive someone already deceived, you deceive someone not deceived. Only per Premil are these in verse 8 not deceived during the thousand years. The reason they are not deceived is because Christ and His saints are ruling over the entire planet during the thousand years, thus no deceivers trying to deceive them any longer, not until satan is loosed. During Amils' proposed thousand years there are deceivers throughout the entire thousand years. Even Amils can't deny this. Or if they do they shouldn't be.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Nowhere does the Revelation state that the beast has been "placed in the abyss with Satan".

Not true! Have a look at the biblical evidence:

Revelation 12:3: “And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns.”

Revelation 13:1-4, “And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns.”

The fate of Satan, the beast (spirit of antichrist / mystery of iniquity) and the fallen angels (demons) are all knit together in Scripture. They all come under the same spiritual subjugation at the exact same time. When Satan was banished from the Garden then all evil was. When Satan was banished from heaven, so where they all (1/3 of the angels went with him). When Christ bound Satan’s kingdom through His life, death and resurrection then all were bound. 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. When Satan is released before the second coming for a little season then they all are. We see this in several passages including 2 Thessalonians 2, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20.

Rev 11:7-9: “And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.”

Hello! The beast obviously is in the bottomless pit if he ascends out of it just before the second coming.

Rev 17:7-8: “And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

Hello! The beast obviously is in the bottomless pit if he ascends out of it just before the second coming.

 

[sovereigngrace]

It's your theological posturing above. The text of Revelation 12 never says Satan was thrown into the abyss. Not even once. The very first time the text of Revelation says that Satan is thrown into the abyss is in Revelation 20: after the beast, having been defeated by Christ upon His return, has been thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Amillennialists must surely concede that they must ignore the text of the Revelation and go beyond the text to have Satan in the abyss before the beast has been thrown into the LOF.

Amillennialists must surely concede that they must go beyond the text of the Revelation if they will have people beheaded for refusal to worship the beast or his image (or receive his mark or the number of his name) before the only beast mentioned in the Revelation (of which it is is said that anyone who refuses will be killed), has even risen from the abyss.

I concede that the thousand years cannot be literal. It could be a symbolic way of telling us that Satan will be released into the new Garden of Eden (the NHNE) in order to attempt to deceive, the way he was released into the first Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve were still living forever and ever in order to attempt to deceive.

But I also concede that I'm going beyond the text when I muse this way, and unlike Amillennialists, who must surely concede that they must go beyond the text to place Revelation 20 with the rest of the Revelation which comes before it (yet will not concede), whether you like it or not, or whether you call my points moot or not, or absurd or anything else, I'm honest with the text, therefore I must remain without an answer in a state of cognitive dissonance regarding Revelation 20 until God allows me to understand.

Your beliefs hang solely upon the thin thread that Revelation 20 is chronological to Revelation 19. Take that away, and Premillennialism falls apart. Yet you claim the NHNE arrive at the second coming. Well, that comes after the millennium is over. There also your argument falls apart.

The $64 million question is: where is your corroboration for your opinion of Revelation 20? Nowhere. The reality is: Premi is totally non-corroborative. If you (or any Premil) had corroboration it would be presented before now. But we who have been on these boards for years know it does not exist.

 

[grafted branch]

So my guess is that, the way you understand what Paul said in Romans 11:25-29. the Israel there refers to "spiritual Israel, aka the Body of Christ"?

I would say there is an Israel that is saved by faith and there is a national Israel who trust in their lineage and obedience to the law.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You were saying something about this in an earlier post as well. What I would point out here, is this. The NHNE is what contains the new Jerusalem and not, they are one and the same. The reason I mention this, it would be the NJ that resembles the garden of Eden. In the garden of Eden the fall took place inside. satan was inside the garden of Eden. Per what Revelation 20 records, satan and those he deceives, are not anyone in the NJ nor is satan or anyone he deceives, inside of the NJ at the time. They are outside of it, thus it is an attack from the outside and not from within instead.

In the garden of Eden it was the ones inside that were being deceived. Currently pretty much everyone on the planet, except for saved Christians, are deceived and have continued to be deceived for the past 2000 years. This alone has Amil making no sense, as if satan is going to deceive the already deceived once he is loosed, as if that is supposed to make sense. Per Premil not one single person will be deceived during the thousand years, thus plenty of ppl for satan to deceive after the thousand years who are not deceived during the thousand years. Per Premil then, the logic is that satan deceives those no longer deceived. Per Amil, the logic is that satan deceives those already deceived. Are Amils instead going to argue that satan deceives the already saved when he is loosed? Are Amils going to argue that anyone who is not saved, that they are not deceived?

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


You don't deceive someone already deceived, you deceive someone not deceived. Only per Premil are these in verse 8 not deceived during the thousand years. The reason they are not deceived is because Christ and His saints are ruling over the entire planet during the thousand years, thus no deceivers trying to deceive them any longer, not until satan is loosed. During Amils' proposed thousand years there are deceivers throughout the entire thousand years. Even Amils can't deny this. Or if they do they shouldn't be.

You know fine well what the Amil position on Revelation 20 is re the enlightenment of the Gentiles through the great commission. Yet, you refuse to acknowledge that or address it. Various Scripture depicts the nations as turning from darkness, encountering the light, and putting their trust in Christ in this NT era. Again, you skip around that. The reality is, the Gentiles have moved from being without hope, without Christ and without God, to embracing Jesus in their countless millions.

Your millennium is a bit of a debacle by the look of it. It is full of everything that this age suffers sin, death, corruption, sickness, Satan, war. Quite frankly: the Premil peace is a sham. It is not in Revelation 20. It is foisted upon it by Premils who are devoid of any other passage that mentions these thousand years. In reality billions of mortal phony religious Gentiles (as the sand of the sea) supposedly submit to Christ and attend Jerusalem to worship in the temple in your alleged future millennium. After a thousand years at the drop of a hat they change their worship to Satan. What a debacle! What a bust!

 

[DavidPT]

You know fine well what the Amil position on Revelation 20 is re the enlightenment of the Gentiles through the great commission. Yet, you refuse to acknowledge that or address it. Various Scripture depicts the nations as turning from darkness, encountering the light, and putting their trust in Christ in this NT era. Again, you skip around that. The reality is, the Gentiles have moved from being without hope, without Christ and without God, to embracing Jesus in their countless millions.

Your millennium is a bit of a debacle by the look of it. It is full of everything that this age suffers sin, death, corruption, sickness, Satan, war. Quite frankly: the Premil peace is a sham. It is not in Revelation 20. It is foisted upon it by Premils who are devoid of any other passage that mentions these thousand years. In reality billions of mortal phony religious Gentiles (as the sand of the sea) supposedly submit to Christ and attend Jerusalem to worship in the temple in your alleged future millennium. After a thousand years at the drop of a hat they change their worship to Satan. What a debacle! What a bust!

If Premil can't work, Amil can't work either, at least not the version some of you are proposing.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


Let's assume Amil here. This would be meaning in the end of this age just prior to the 2nd coming. These in verse 8 are obviously meaning the unsaved. This means all of these in verse 8 have been living during the last years of the thousand years. This means during the thousand years, the fact they are unsaved, they were being deceived during the thousand years, otherwise they would be of the saved not the unsaved. There are apparently maybe billions meant in verse 8, who are already deceived during the thousand years, yet verse 8 tells us that satan sets out to deceive them. And that makes good sense exactly how, that satan sets out to deceive someone already deceived?

In the garden of Eden in the beginning, did satan set out to deceive someone already deceived, or someone not already deceived?


Are Amils going to argue, that if one is unsaved that this does not mean they are deceived?

 

[sovereigngrace]

If Premil can't work, Amil can't work either, at least not the version some of you are proposing.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


Let's assume Amil here. This would be meaning in the end of this age just prior to the 2nd coming. These in verse 8 are obviously meaning the unsaved. This means all of these in verse 8 have been living during the last years of the thousand years. This means during the thousand years, the fact they are unsaved, they were being deceived during the thousand years, otherwise they would be of the saved not the unsaved. There are apparently maybe billions meant in verse 8, who are already deceived during the thousand years, yet verse 8 tells us that satan sets out to deceive them. And that makes good sense exactly how, that satan sets out to deceive someone already deceived?

In the garden of Eden in the beginning, did satan set out to deceive someone already deceived, or someone not already deceived?


Are Amils going to argue, that if one is unsaved that this does not mean they are deceived?

You do not seem to understand Amil or the whole thrust of Revelation 20. This chapter shows us that the binding of Satan facilitates the enlightenment of the Gentiles as a whole through the great commission. This is a generality. Satan is powerless to curtail the global invasion of the kingdom of darkness. He is powerless to stop the Church of Jesus Christ. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles are now without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted. The means by which God lifts deception is the preaching of the Word of God. This has now been successfully ongoing throughout the nations for 2000 years. The Gospel is no longer limited to the small nation of Israel but was rather, through the life and work of Christ, opened up to all the nations.

The release of Satan at the end of the millennium sees the subjugation of the great commission and consequently the enlightenment of the nations. The devil will be able to curtail the evangelistic outreach of the true Church at the end. This is a generality. The spiritual restrains will be released on Satan and the beast/antichrist system at the end to curtail the global spread of the Gospel. Satan will be loosed for a short time. The one who "letteth," or restrains, will be taken out of the way (2 Thess 2:7). This enables Satan to establish his world-kingdom under antichrist. The result is the final, all-out assault upon the Church and her living, faithful members.

 

[One Son]

I'm not twisting anything lol. Most people understand that when you put an "s" on the end of a word it makes it plural. If the Old Testament believers that rose with Christ weren't the firstfruits of THEM THAT SLEPT then what do you call them?

In the New Testament the word first fruit is always singular.


Romans 8:23 N-AFS

GRK: αὐτοὶ τὴν ἀπαρχὴν τοῦ πνεύματος

NAS: having the first fruits of the Spirit,

KJV: which have the firstfruits of the Spirit,

INT: ourselves the first-fruit of the Spirit

Romans 11:16 N-NFS

GRK: δὲ ἡ ἀπαρχὴ ἁγία καὶ

NAS: If the first piece [of dough] is holy,

KJV: if the firstfruit [be] holy,

INT: moreover the first-fruit [be] holy also

Romans 16:5 N-NFS

GRK: ὅς ἐστιν ἀπαρχὴ τῆς Ἀσίας

NAS: who is the first convert to Christ

KJV: who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto

INT: who is a first-fruit of Achaia

1 Corinthians 15:20 N-NFS

GRK: ἐκ νεκρῶν ἀπαρχὴ τῶν κεκοιμημένων

NAS: from the dead, the first fruits of those

KJV: [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.

INT: from among [the] dead first-fruit of those fallen asleep

1 Corinthians 15:23 N-NFS

GRK: ἰδίῳ τάγματι ἀπαρχὴ Χριστός ἔπειτα

NAS: Christ the first fruits, after

KJV: Christ the firstfruits; afterward

INT: own order [the] first-fruit Christ then

1 Corinthians 16:15 N-NFS

GRK: ὅτι ἐστὶν ἀπαρχὴ τῆς Ἀχαίας

NAS: of Stephanas, that they were the first fruits of Achaia,

KJV: it is the firstfruits of Achaia,

INT: that it is first-fruit of Achaia

James 1:18 N-AFS

GRK: εἶναι ἡμᾶς ἀπαρχήν τινα τῶν

NAS: that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

KJV: a kind of firstfruits of his

INT: to be us first-fruits a sort of

Revelation 14:4 N-NFS

GRK: τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἀπαρχὴ τῷ θεῷ

NAS: men as first fruits to God

KJV: among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God

INT: the men [as] firstfruits to God

Strong's Greek 536

8 Occurrences



ἀπαρχὴ — 6 Occ.

ἀπαρχὴν — 2 Occ.




Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.(2Cor.5:17).

 

[One Son]

You do not seem to understand Amil or the whole thrust of Revelation 20. This chapter shows us that the binding of Satan facilitates the enlightenment of the Gentiles as a whole through the great commission. This is a generality. Satan is powerless to curtail the global invasion of the kingdom of darkness. He is powerless to stop the Church of Jesus Christ. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles are now without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted. The means by which God lifts deception is the preaching of the Word of God. This has now been successfully ongoing throughout the nations for 2000 years. The Gospel is no longer limited to the small nation of Israel but was rather, through the life and work of Christ, opened up to all the nations.

The release of Satan at the end of the millennium sees the subjugation of the great commission and consequently the enlightenment of the nations. The devil will be able to curtail the evangelistic outreach of the true Church at the end. This is a generality. The spiritual restrains will be released on Satan and the beast/antichrist system at the end to curtail the global spread of the Gospel. Satan will be loosed for a short time. The one who "letteth," or restrains, will be taken out of the way (2 Thess 2:7). This enables Satan to establish his world-kingdom under antichrist. The result is the final, all-out assault upon the Church and her living, faithful members.

2Cor.1:21(ASV) and He who is confirming you with us into Christ, and did anoint us, [is] God,
22 who also sealed us, and gave the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.


Eph.1:13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth — the good news of your salvation — in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise,
:14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory.

4:30 and make not sorrowful the Holy Spirit of God, in which ye were sealed to a day of redemption.


Rev.20:1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,

3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut it , and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time.



Jn.1:32 And John bare witness, saying, I have beheld the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven; and it abode upon him.

33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize in water, he said unto me, Upon whomsoever thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and abiding upon him, the same is he that baptizeth in the Holy Spirit.
34 And I have seen, and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.



Jn.3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is of the earth, and of the earth he speaketh: he that cometh from heaven is above all. 32What he hath seen and heard, of that he beareth witness; and no man receiveth his witness.

33 He that hath received his witness hath set his seal to this , that God is true


Jn.6:27 Work not for the food which perisheth, but for the food which abideth unto eternal life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him the Father, even God, hath sealed.



Rev.20:3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut it , and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after(with)* this he must be loosed for a little time.

Lk.4:1-14

:1 And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan(Baptized), and was led in the Spirit in the wilderness 2during forty days, being tempted of the devil. And he did eat nothing in those days: and when they were completed, he hungered.

12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not make trial of the Lord thy God.

13 And when the devil had completed every temptation, he departed from him for a season.


Lk.23:44 (NIV) It was now about noon, and darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon, 45for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.


Acts 6+7


7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon the Lord , and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.



Jesus and Stephen were sealed with the Holy Spirit, the thousand years represent from the time of their Baptism to the time of their death.

For Jesus 3.5 years.

Rev.12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.




Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

 

[Guojing]

I would say there is an Israel that is saved by faith and there is a national Israel who trust in their lineage and obedience to the law.

So would you consider yourself as part of the "Israel that is saved by faith"?