Times of the Gentiles

Handmaid for Jesus said:

What temple do you think Paul is referring to?

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The same temple that he wrote about in other places, which is the spiritual temple of God (Eph 2:19-22, 2 Cor 6:16). The church. Paul was referring to a temple that existed at the time he wrote 2 Thessalonians. The physical temple standing at the time was no longer the temple of God.

And he would never have referred to a future physical temple as the temple of God. God has no need or desire for such a temple, so how could a future physical temple qualify to be called "the temple of God"?

I believe that when it refers to "the man of sin" it's not referring to an individual man of sin, but rather is referring to sinful mankind who has fallen away and essentially have made themselves God by believing in themselves while thinking they have no need for the one true God.

I see it as referring to sinful mankind in a general sense similarly to how the following passage refers to "the man of God" in a general sense to the people of God rather than referring to an individual man of God.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Brian Mcnamee said:

We are so far apart and I have danced around many times going through our opposing views, where to do it again is pointless unless perhaps some undecided student of scriptures might benefit from it.

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That's fine. You're not obligated to respond to me. But, if you're going to claim that there will be future temple sacrifices performed "as memorials", you should be able to back that up with scripture.

Hi many things that happened a long time ago are made clear when the intent of the earlier prophecy catches up with God's intention such as Melchizedek who shows up in Gen and when Abraham saved Lot. Then again is psalm 110. The promise in Zech is that one will be both king and priest on his throne. Now no one understood thin until Jesus came and the Holy Spirit revealed the intent in the book of Hebrews. I know the scriptures say these sacrifices will be performed when the kingdom is established and the LORD is king over all the earth. I said it might be that they are a memorial and noted that in the day Jesus has come in glory and is ruling with a rod of iron that the things established in that day will be understood in that day. I maintained that no other sacrifice is acceptable other than that of Jesus from the beginning on. I am content to believe these things are coming to pass and I do not understand fully the purpose of those sacrifices but I am not going to overrule the promised destiny.
It will be clear in that day.

Spiritual Jew said:

The same temple that he wrote about in other places, which is the spiritual temple of God (Eph 2:19-22, 2 Cor 6:16). The church. Paul was referring to a temple that existed at the time he wrote 2 Thessalonians. The physical temple standing at the time was no longer the temple of God.

And he would never have referred to a future physical temple as the temple of God. God has no need or desire for such a temple, so how could a future physical temple qualify to be called "the temple of God"?

I believe that when it refers to "the man of sin" it's not referring to an individual man of sin, but rather is referring to sinful mankind who has fallen away and essentially have made themselves God by believing in themselves while thinking they have no need for the one true God.

I see it as referring to sinful mankind in a general sense similarly to how the following passage refers to "the man of God" in a general sense to the people of God rather than referring to an individual man of God.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

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I agree 100% with this. Also I'm pretty sure "our gathering together unto him" in 2Th 2:1 is talking about the end of our life on earth when we are caught up to be with the Lord.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

The idea that the day of Christ is our death is also supported here:

Php 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;

Brian Mcnamee said:

Hi many things that happened a long time ago are made clear when the intent of the earlier prophecy catches up with God's intention such as Melchizedek who shows up in Gen and when Abraham saved Lot. Then again is psalm 110. The promise in Zech is that one will be both king and priest on his throne. Now no one understood thin until Jesus came and the Holy Spirit revealed the intent in the book of Hebrews. I know the scriptures say these sacrifices will be performed when the kingdom is established and the LORD is king over all the earth. I said it might be that they are a memorial and noted that in the day Jesus has come in glory and is ruling with a rod of iron that the things established in that day will be understood in that day. I maintained that no other sacrifice is acceptable other than that of Jesus from the beginning on. I am content to believe these things are coming to pass and I do not understand fully the purpose of those sacrifices but I am not going to overrule the promised destiny.
It will be clear in that day.

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I guess people forget that the overwhelming purpose of the Passover and the feast of unleavened bread is in REMEMBRANCE of what God DID in delivering the children of Israel from their bondage in Egypt, It was but a very vague, but true, foreshadowing of the work of the cross. And Jesus has given us a likewise, vague, foreshadowing of how the Passover, will again br both a remembrance and a foreshadowing of its offering in the future. We [now] celebrate the REMEMBRANCE of the Lord's death till he comes again. So we now should recognize (vaguely) how communion FORESHADOWS the 2nd coming of Christ. And how that, afterwards, in the millennium, the Passover will be then celebrated in REMEMBRANCE of the 2nd advent, with an even future foreshadowing of the end of the millennium. Jesus said, not one word will pass from the law, [everything that is done with the purposes of foreshadowing and remembrance] until all is fulfilled. "Fulfillment" is the backbone to prophetic utterances given to us by God. I could share with you how that even Passover itself will reveal its prophetic foreshadow when Jesus said,

Luk 22:16 KJV For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

But, that is for another time and place.

Be Blessed
The PuP

Brian Mcnamee said:

Hi many things that happened a long time ago are made clear when the intent of the earlier prophecy catches up with God's intention such as Melchizedek who shows up in Gen and when Abraham saved Lot. Then again is psalm 110. The promise in Zech is that one will be both king and priest on his throne. Now no one understood thin until Jesus came and the Holy Spirit revealed the intent in the book of Hebrews. I know the scriptures say these sacrifices will be performed when the kingdom is established and the LORD is king over all the earth. I said it might be that they are a memorial and noted that in the day Jesus has come in glory and is ruling with a rod of iron that the things established in that day will be understood in that day. I maintained that no other sacrifice is acceptable other than that of Jesus from the beginning on. I am content to believe these things are coming to pass and I do not understand fully the purpose of those sacrifices but I am not going to overrule the promised destiny.
It will be clear in that day.

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The Old Testament scripture was purposely made less clear because some things were not meant to be clear until Christ came. The New Testament shines light on the Old Testament scriptures and makes it clear as to what they were really all about.

This idea that New Testament scripture is not clear about the future and we'll find out one day is not something that I can accept. I believe these things are made clear in the New Testament. And the New Testament is very clear that God does not desire animal sacrifices and is not pleased with them (read Hebrews 10) and they only served the purpose of foreshadowing Christ's sacrifice. If there were going to be sacrifices in the future performed "as memorials" then there would be scripture which teaches that, but there is not.

Bob_1000 said:

I agree 100% with this. Also I'm pretty sure "our gathering together unto him" in 2Th 2:1 is talking about the end of our life on earth when we are caught up to be with the Lord.

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I'm glad you agree with what I said, but I 100% disagree with you on your interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:1. That verse is referring to the future second coming of Jesus Christ when we will all be gathered to Him at the same time, just like what he wrote about in 1 Thess 4:14-17.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

The idea that the day of Christ is our death is also supported here:

Php 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;

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Paul wrote about us all being gathered to Him at once (1 Thess 4:14-17, 1 Cor 15:22-23), but you're talking about us being gathered to Him one by one upon our deaths. That is not what Paul taught.

Spiritual Jew said:

I'm glad you agree with what I said, but I 100% disagree with you on your interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:1. That verse is referring to the future second coming of Jesus Christ when we will all be gathered to Him at the same time, just like what he wrote about in 1 Thess 4:14-17.

Paul wrote about us all being gathered to Him at once (1 Thess 4:14-17, 1 Cor 15:22-23), but you're talking about us being gathered to Him one by one upon our deaths. That is not what Paul taught.

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I went back and read it again and yes I was wrong. I think that whole chapter is about Jesus coming into a believers life and the old man or man of sin being crucified with Christ.

Bob_1000 said:

I went back and read it again and yes I was wrong. I think that whole chapter is about Jesus coming into a believers life and the old man or man of sin being crucified with Christ.

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Which whole chapter, 2nd Thessalonians 2? If so, I disagree. I don't see that in the context of 2 Thess 2 at all.

Brian Mcnamee said:

Hi many things that happened a long time ago are made clear when the intent of the earlier prophecy catches up with God's intention such as Melchizedek who shows up in Gen and when Abraham saved Lot. Then again is psalm 110. The promise in Zech is that one will be both king and priest on his throne. Now no one understood thin until Jesus came and the Holy Spirit revealed the intent in the book of Hebrews. I know the scriptures say these sacrifices will be performed when the kingdom is established and the LORD is king over all the earth. I said it might be that they are a memorial and noted that in the day Jesus has come in glory and is ruling with a rod of iron that the things established in that day will be understood in that day. I maintained that no other sacrifice is acceptable other than that of Jesus from the beginning on. I am content to believe these things are coming to pass and I do not understand fully the purpose of those sacrifices but I am not going to overrule the promised destiny.
It will be clear in that day.

Click to expand...

Ezekiel 45
15 And one lamb out of the flock, out of two hundred, out of the fat pastures of Israel; for a meat offering, and for a burnt offering, and for peace offerings, to make reconciliation for them, saith the Lord God.
17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

Ezekiel 46
20 Then said he unto me, This is the place where the priests shall boil the trespass offering and the sin offering, where they shall bake the meat offering; that they bear them not out into the utter court, to sanctify the people.

Ezekiel's sacrifices are not memorials.

They are expiatory.

Will the Lamb of God serve as master butcher in the temple abattoir?

It is impossible to conceive of a greater abomination.