Orthodox priest calls Pope a heretic

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Orthodox priest shouts 'you are a heretic' to Pope

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rusmeister said:

Well, of course, I refer to my signature and defer to the consensus of the fathers. But I think it HUGELY problematic to hold that we essentially need to hold everyone believing in or promoting false teachings as a heretic. Certainly each of the Protestant “Reformers” went wrong in some way and developed some form of heretical teaching. But I see the distinction that matters and which is actually helpful to be whether the person is a member of the Church (as we hold it to be) or not. Otherwise, we’d pretty much have to drive away all inquirers, saying “You’re a heretic” to each when they express such a false idea, whether it’s Calvinistic predestination, or Baptist “Once saved, always saved”. That’s not meant to be a caricature of what you are saying; I think it really is the upshot of saying that we should call people with false teachings outside of the Church “heretics”. It’s not helpful, it makes no distinction, and it turns people away from the Church. Our ecclesiological situation is radically different from that of the first millennium A.D.

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rusmeister said:

Well, of course, I refer to my signature and defer to the consensus of the fathers. But I think it HUGELY problematic to hold that we essentially need to hold everyone believing in or promoting false teachings as a heretic. Certainly each of the Protestant “Reformers” went wrong in some way and developed some form of heretical teaching. But I see the distinction that matters and which is actually helpful to be whether the person is a member of the Church (as we hold it to be) or not. Otherwise, we’d pretty much have to drive away all inquirers, saying “You’re a heretic” to each when they express such a false idea, whether it’s Calvinistic predestination, or Baptist “Once saved, always saved”. That’s not meant to be a caricature of what you are saying; I think it really is the upshot of saying that we should call people with false teachings outside of the Church “heretics”. It’s not helpful, it makes no distinction, and it turns people away from the Church. Our ecclesiological situation is radically different from that of the first millennium A.D.

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Incendiary Minds said:

This is so lacking in Christian charity, similar when a very ill and old Pope John Paul II went to Greece during the PASCAL season, humble and begging forgiveness of the Orthodox and was confronted with such abuse that creates scandal to outsiders and serves only to confirm to some Western converts the anti Western attitudes of many Eastern Orthodox and the wisdom of why those converts choose to return to their Protestant or Catholic beliefs.

It seems that wretched debasement as " disgusting heretics" before a proud and self righteous Eastern Orthodox body might be the ONLY thing that satisfies Orthodox sensibilities- that's not very Christ like and hopefully will never happen.

I was reading about the lack of financial support ( even to the point of being refused for health care) Catholic clergy suffers from the Greek government along with lack of funds for even maintaining the small amount of churches in Greece. This is in SHARP CONTRAST to the generosity shown to Serbs, Romanians, Russians by Catholic countries like Italy, Austria, Hungary etc; who with generosity donate lands, monies, buildings and other resources as needed to Orthodox Christians in need. The lack of common decency on behalf of the Orthodox is quite unseemly as well as shameful.

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Incendiary Minds said:

In your insults and anger during the Feast of the Entry of the Theotokos into the temple and before the Feast of St. Catherine, you forgot to read about the kindness ( which has been highly appreciated by the Orthodox as per articles written in Orthodoxy.ru, I believe), stated in my post.

Why are so many in this larger forum so thin-skinned about receiving criticism based on observations whether subjective or objective. The Priest in question was rude - ever heard of the saying:" If you cannot say something nice, do not say anything at all?" Thank you.

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rusmeister said:

Well, of course, I refer to my signature and defer to the consensus of the fathers. But I think it HUGELY problematic to hold that we essentially need to hold everyone believing in or promoting false teachings as a heretic. Certainly each of the Protestant “Reformers” went wrong in some way and developed some form of heretical teaching. But I see the distinction that matters and which is actually helpful to be whether the person is a member of the Church (as we hold it to be) or not. Otherwise, we’d pretty much have to drive away all inquirers, saying “You’re a heretic” to each when they express such a false idea, whether it’s Calvinistic predestination, or Baptist “Once saved, always saved”. That’s not meant to be a caricature of what you are saying; I think it really is the upshot of saying that we should call people with false teachings outside of the Church “heretics”. It’s not helpful, it makes no distinction, and it turns people away from the Church. Our ecclesiological situation is radically different from that of the first millennium A.D.

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Saint Silouan the Athonite said:

Father Silouan’s attitude towards those who differed from him was characterised by a sincere desire to see what was good in them, and not to offend them in anything they held sacred. He always remained himself, he was utterly Convinced that ‘salvation lies in Christ-like humility’, and by virtue of this humility he strove with his whole soul to interpret every man at his best. He found his way to the heart of everyone to his capacity for loving Christ.

I remember a conversation he had with a certain Archimandrite who was engaged in missionary work. This Archimandrite thought highly of the Staretz and many a time went to see him during his visits to the Holy Mountain. The Staretz asked him what sort of sermons he preached to people. The Archimandrite, who was still young and inexperienced gesticulated with his hands and swayed his whole body, and replied excitedly, ‘I tell them, Your faith is all wrong, perverted. There is nothing right, and if you don’t repent, there will be no salvation for you.’

The Staretz heard him out, then asked, ‘Tell me, Father Archimandrite, do they believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, that He is the true God?’

‘Yes, that they do believe.’

‘And do they revere the Mother of God?’

‘Yes, but they are not taught properly about her.’

‘And what of the Saints?’

‘Yes, they honour them but since they have fallen away from the Church, what saints can they have?’

‘Do they celebrate the Divine Office in their churches? Do they read the Gospels?’

‘Yes, they do have churches and services but if you were to compare their services with ours—how cold and lifeless theirs are!’

‘Father Archimandrite, people feel in their souls when they are doing the proper thing, believing in Jesus Christ, revering the Mother of God and the Saints, whom they call upon in prayer, so if you condemn their faith they will not listen to you ... But if you were to confirm that they were doing well to believe in God and honour the Mother of God and the Saints; that they are right to go to church, and say their prayers at home, read the Divine word, and so on; and then gently point out their mistakes and show them what they ought to amend, then they would listen to you, and the Lord would rejoice over them. And this way by God’s mercy we shall all find salvation ... God is love, and therefore the preaching of His word must always proceed from love. Then both preacher and listener will profit. But if you do nothing but condemn, the soul of the people will not heed you, and no good will come of it.’

From Saint Silouan the Athonite, by Archimandrite Sophrony (Sakharov) (Essex, England: Stavropegic Monastery of St. John the Baptist, 1991), pp. 63-65.

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All4Christ said:

Generally, I’ve hear the concept of saying non-Orthodox hold to some beliefs that are heritical, rather than calling them heretics. It’s kind of a difference of semantics and wording…but it does make a differentiation between the two. Maybe it is an English terminology issue?

I tend to look at it this way.


Please note that I am not saying that anyone is judging anyone else or not speaking in a loving way. This is just a passage and direction that resonates strongly with me.

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ArmyMatt said:

that’s not true. John Calvin has been condemned as a heretic by us.

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Not David said:

I mean the Roman Church is both a heretical and schismatic body, how long does it has to pass so that a group does not longer become "heretical or schismatic" just because they were not raised Orthodox, if so then the children of Old Believers or "True Orthodox" would not be considered schismatics.

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BNR32FAN said:

Yes I was wondering about the validity of that statement. Thanks for clarifying. I believe the Gnostics were also deemed heretics if I’m not mistaken.

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rusmeister said:

I think the “How long?” question a fair one, and have a rather simple answer - as long as they are trying to teach within the Church.

We all agree that the teachings themselves ARE heretical, considered in relation to truth. But it seems clear to me that the word “heretic”, as applied to people, only has value in dealing with false teaching WITHIN the Church. So the original heresiarchs were obviously heretics. But to go to people who are admittedly not part of our Body and call them heretics is about as helpful as calling them sinners while implying that we ourselves are holy. It may be technically true, but it is also anti-evangelization, guaranteed to turn practically all away from the Orthodox Church. We do not live in the first millennium, where there is only one institution universally acknowledged to be the Church. And applying that understanding means calling all non-Orthodox heretics, which makes it useless and unnecessary as a distinction.

And yes, of course, by that token, Islam is indeed a Christian heresy. But again, it is useless to use the term to point out the obvious - that they are not Orthodox - and waters down its truly effective usage - against the Ariuses of the modern world WITHIN the Church who would have us change or deny our own teachings.

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Not David said:

Bunch of Church Fathers called up people when necessary, so I don't know why it is there this concern about being "mean".

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ArmyMatt said:

there are a lot. if you hold to heretical theology, you are by definition a heretic even if you were never in the Church.

obviously, you should never use that when talking to others.

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Yeshua HaDerekh said:

IMO, I think they do not want any involvement with the RCC in Greek lands at all...

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