RickReads

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You are probably right, but I just the outside possibility open. I don't want to limit God's creative power.

Agreed, but on this issue, I think it's pretty safe bro.

Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
 
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ViaCrucis

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Agreed, but on this issue, I think it's pretty safe bro.

Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

If you understand what the word daemon referred to in Greek, and its borrowing to speak of evil spirits in Judaism (and consequently Christianity), then this statement by St. Paul makes sense.

Namely, daemons were often conceived as numinous beings that inhabited the space between heaven and earth. In Greek mythology and folklore a daemon was any generic semi-divine or divine entity. It isn't until Judaism borrowed the term to talk about specifically evil spirits that it became synonymous with evil spirit or fallen angels.

It does not mean that Satan and his minions drive space cars in the atmosphere.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Jipsah

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The problem with that premise is that UFO sightings go back to ancient times, even appearing in cave paintings.
In other words, people have been seeing flying things they couldn't identify roughly forever. Well dang.
 
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Jipsah

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Yes, the Devil has been at work for a long time and never stops trying.
Help me, if I see a flying thing and I can't tell what it is, does that mean it must be a demon? What if it's really American 447 out of LA, but the sun was behind it? Still a demon? Driving a 787? Seriously?
 
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Sorry Bruce, but God has promised the inheritance to man. There are no alien civilizations on other planets. Our so-called aliens are all demonic and originate from the kingdom of darkness.
There was a time when my ancestors were "devils transmarine", evil, slit-eyed, swarthy, celestials, existing far across the impassible seas where live dragons and all kinds of diabolical critters. Right up until it turned out they were just Them Folks Over There, and ended up living next door to you.
 
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Walk together

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Help me, if I see a flying thing and I can't tell what it is, does that mean it must be a demon? What if it's really American 447 out of LA, but the sun was behind it? Still a demon? Driving a 787? Seriously?
Yes, sometimes it is a plane or a weather phenomenon but I refer to the sitings that are truly unidentified and do things that can,t be what we know.
 
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Jipsah

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Yes, sometimes it is a plane or a weather phenomenon but I refer to the sitings that are truly unidentified and do things that can,t be what we know.
"Unidentified" means "not identified", whether it's an F-18 or a flying saucer from Rigel 4. The "defied the laws of Physics" nonsense is just that, nonsense. What that means is that the observer had no idea what they were looking at.

Much as most people would like for there to be Spacemen and Flying Saucers, or, if you prefer, demons passing themelves off as Spacemen and Flying Saucers, there's no evidence that there are any. It's a matter of faith, a faith which I see no need to embrace.
 
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Davy

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Hopefully nuclear physics won't keep us from true solvation but the Devil shore can.

No, the devil cannot keep one who 'believes' on The Father and His Son Jesus Christ from His Salvation. Only each 'person' their self can keep theirself from true salvation in Christ Jesus. God is only using the devil as a punishing rod upon the rebellious (Isaiah 10). When He is done at the end of this world, that punishing rod (Satan) is going to be cast into the lake of fire, and will be no more.

So don't ever think that Satan has the same power as our Heavenly Father and His Son, for that false idea is from old pagan religions like Zoroastrianism.
 
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No, the devil cannot keep one who 'believes' on The Father and His Son Jesus Christ from His Salvation. Only each 'person' their self can keep theirself from true salvation in Christ Jesus. God is only using the devil as a punishing rod upon the rebellious (Isaiah 10). When He is done at the end of this world, that punishing rod (Satan) is going to be cast into the lake of fire, and will be no more.

So don't ever think that Satan has the same power as our Heavenly Father and His Son, for that false idea is from old pagan religions like Zoroastrianism.
And amen to that. Only the gullible and foolish will be deceived with the devil's plot.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Yes, sometimes it is a plane or a weather phenomenon but I refer to the sitings that are truly unidentified and do things that can,t be what we know.

Which only demonstrates seeing something which one can't identify, and which one doesn't have an explanation for. That's all it means.

Since I already mentioned in this thread that I recently saw something in the night sky that I can't explain, allow me to elaborate:

A little over three weeks ago a friend of mine came to visit and we were sitting on my back patio reminiscing about "the old days". The sky was mostly clear, with the exception of some wispy clouds here and there. My buddy suddenly asks, "How fast to satellites move?" then pointed to a particular spot in the sky. I looked, and after a moment I saw a "star" that was moving quite fast, and so I was pretty confident that it was just a satellite. Until moments later when it seemed like it slowed for a moment and then it looked like it grew into a fuzzy light about five times bigger and disappeared. I stared at the spot where it was for a few moments until my senses came back and I uttered "What?" somewhat loud. As I was about to ask my friend if he saw that just happen also, he cut me off and said "Yep".

My first thought was that I imagined it, that my eyes were playing tricks on me. And if my friend hadn't been there and saw the same thing I did, exactly as I described it above, I would have happily gone the rest of my life assuming it was just a small visual hallucination caused by some trick of the mind or something along those lines. It was all very surreal for me.

So, as I've said in a prior post, the only thing I can say is that I saw something and I don't have an explanation for it.

To be honest I still think it most likely was a satellite, as satellite flares are actually pretty common; and perhaps the light from said satellite flare passing through the atmosphere in just the right way was distorted producing the weird fuzzy shape. Why did it disappear? I don't know, maybe it wasn't a flare from the satellite reflecting light, but it exploding--I have no idea.

And that's just it: I have no idea.

The sci-fi nerd in me would love to say, "aliens!" but, and this is important: It's never aliens until its aliens. And by the same token, why assume it was "demons"?

Here are some other things I don't assume what I saw to be: Magic, fairies, dragons, a 5d6 fireball from the game Dungeons & Dragons.

We put on our critical thinking hats, and we accept that sometimes we don't know everything, and that's okay. I am confident that there is an explanation for what I saw, and that said explanation is probably far more mundane and boring than the ultra-exciting prospect of angels or aliens.

It's okay to not know.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Which only demonstrates seeing something which one can't identify, and which one doesn't have an explanation for. That's all it means.

Since I already mentioned in this thread that I recently saw something in the night sky that I can't explain, allow me to elaborate:

A little over three weeks ago a friend of mine came to visit and we were sitting on my back patio reminiscing about "the old days". The sky was mostly clear, with the exception of some wispy clouds here and there. My buddy suddenly asks, "How fast to satellites move?" then pointed to a particular spot in the sky. I looked, and after a moment I saw a "star" that was moving quite fast, and so I was pretty confident that it was just a satellite. Until moments later when it seemed like it slowed for a moment and then it looked like it grew into a fuzzy light about five times bigger and disappeared. I stared at the spot where it was for a few moments until my senses came back and I uttered "What?" somewhat loud. As I was about to ask my friend if he saw that just happen also, he cut me off and said "Yep".

My first thought was that I imagined it, that my eyes were playing tricks on me. And if my friend hadn't been there and saw the same thing I did, exactly as I described it above, I would have happily gone the rest of my life assuming it was just a small visual hallucination caused by some trick of the mind or something along those lines. It was all very surreal for me.

So, as I've said in a prior post, the only thing I can say is that I saw something and I don't have an explanation for it.

To be honest I still think it most likely was a satellite, as satellite flares are actually pretty common; and perhaps the light from said satellite flare passing through the atmosphere in just the right way was distorted producing the weird fuzzy shape. Why did it disappear? I don't know, maybe it wasn't a flare from the satellite reflecting light, but it exploding--I have no idea.

And that's just it: I have no idea.

The sci-fi nerd in me would love to say, "aliens!" but, and this is important: It's never aliens until its aliens. And by the same token, why assume it was "demons"?

Here are some other things I don't assume what I saw to be: Magic, fairies, dragons, a 5d6 fireball from the game Dungeons & Dragons.

We put on our critical thinking hats, and we accept that sometimes we don't know everything, and that's okay. I am confident that there is an explanation for what I saw, and that said explanation is probably far more mundane and boring than the ultra-exciting prospect of angels or aliens.

It's okay to not know.

-CryptoLutheran
I truly know what you are saying and I do agree with your experience. I am very aware of satellites and aeroplanes in the night sky but I have seen things that are far beyond that. I wish I could elaborate more but to do so I would be putting myself in a position of great controversy and doubt so as a person of some experience of the strange phenomena I can only say I know. Most people never get hit by lightning but some people get hit by lightning twice.
 
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Freedm

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Help me, if I see a flying thing and I can't tell what it is, does that mean it must be a demon? What if it's really American 447 out of LA, but the sun was behind it? Still a demon? Driving a 787? Seriously?
If you see a plane, it's obviously a plane. If you're seeing something unexplainable (as millions of people all around the world have seen) then it's obviously not a plane.
 
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Freedm

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I don't know what it was, but I have precisely 0 reasons to believe it is either angels or aliens.
Are you sure about that? I'm not sure why but I strongly believe that angels are beings of 100% pure energy / light, and I think when people see strange lights in the sky (lights that are obviously not satellites, airplanes or cars in the distance) I think they're seeing angels because that is how a ball of energy would present.

I've also seen enough videos of such phenomena to recognize a pattern, which is that more often than what could be considered coincidence, these lights appear in groups of three and they form a triangle. Sometimes they appear in larger groups, and dance around the sky making various patterns, as if they're worshipping the Lord with their movements. Is it possible?
 
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Davy

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No aliens only angels. Many of us have seen lights in the sky some have experienced much more of this strange and controversial topic. The bible tells us nothing of beings from other worlds only that of angels as God's first creation. The many good angels that are sent to our world to assist us in many ways are very Nobel and fleeting in their duty as they carry out their assigned tasks this method of employment is very much to do with our faith as God will not convince us of his reality with visions or miracles to bring us to him. We can, however, see the visions of the Devil as he tries to rain us into his false and biter world for many he represents himself as visitors and saviours from another world. The Devil has no morals to restrain him from lyse only a plan to destroy as many of us as he can using his fallen comrades as soldiers of destruction these are the lights in the sky. One day very soon God will reveal his good angels to us and we will know the difference that separates the fallen ones from the angels of love this is a time to anticipate and prepare for as we defeat the attempts of the Devil today. There is only one true saviour and we true Christians will recognise him as Jesus when he returns surrounded by Gods angels of love. Be not deceived by the Devil.

I agree.

There's no such things as monsters in God's Holy Writ either, even though some have wild interpretations about the locusts of Revelation 9.

God's Word reveals 2 different dimensions of existence, this earthly one we are in, and the heavenly dimension where God and the angels dwell today. That heavenly one is hidden behind an invisible veil. We cannot see into that other dimension unless God allows it, like He did with His Old Testament prophets (see Isaiah 6).

I also believe those who have had a near death experience (NDE), finding theirself outside of their body, have direct evidence of the existence of that heavenly dimension. (see this testimony by the Western actor Clint Walker who had a ski accident --
 
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There are many temptations in the world and God has given us free will to decide just as he has given the devil free will and the devil has decided to carry out his deceitful plan. We can not call a man a thief if there was nothing to steal we would not be tempted by the devil if he had no power. Many people say if God is good why does he let all these things go on well it is quite simple to decide with our hearts we need an option this option of right and wrong good and bad is a resistance that we can use to show God that we have chosen to turn to him. This resistance works like weight lifting that strengthens our body the negative conditions of the world work to strengthen our spirit. God wishes for us to come to him with our hearts, not our eyes. God will receive his true believers in a flash the devil must work long and hard to receive his deceived ones. You will know Jesus when you see him as you will have no choice.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Are you sure about that? I'm not sure why but I strongly believe that angels are beings of 100% pure energy / light, and I think when people see strange lights in the sky (lights that are obviously not satellites, airplanes or cars in the distance) I think they're seeing angels because that is how a ball of energy would present.

I've also seen enough videos of such phenomena to recognize a pattern, which is that more often than what could be considered coincidence, these lights appear in groups of three and they form a triangle. Sometimes they appear in larger groups, and dance around the sky making various patterns, as if they're worshipping the Lord with their movements. Is it possible?

I don't see any reason to believe that angels are balls of energy and/or light.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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I don't see any reason to believe that angels are balls of energy and/or light.

-CryptoLutheran
I think you are underestimating the deceptiveness of the devil he can and does reveal himself in many different ways. A good angel of God can be a stranger in disguise but the devil has less power and shows up for some in ways to deceive. The devil is very smart and brings bad opportunities to so many's delights. If it is light's in the sky and it convinces one of visiters then the devil is delighted as this will show the bible to be wrong. The devil is a master of deceit and trickery.
 
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Freedm

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I don't see any reason to believe that angels are balls of energy and/or light.

-CryptoLutheran
Well, this is the way I see it. Light is energy and energy is life. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:45 that we will be resurrected as "life giving spirits".

So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

I believe the angels are also spirits because they dwell in the spiritual dimension.

Now, why are they balls of energy? In John 8:12 Jesus seems to be implying that life shines like a light. "
Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.

He also calls himself the light, and in another passage he calls himself the way, the truth and the life. All of these things (the way, truth, life and light) appear to be synonymous or at least closely related, and so I would expect a being that is pure life (like an angel, or a resurrected person) that they would shine like a light.

Did not also Jesus and Moses both literally shine like a light after they came face to face with God, the giver of life?

Fun fact: Did you know that human beings actually also give off a small amount of light? This is because we have a small amount of energy in us, and when you consider that energy is life, we can say that we have a little bit of life in us. Imagine how much light we would give off once we are resurrected as immortal spirits, having eternal life.
 
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I think you are underestimating the deceptiveness of the devil he can and does reveal himself in many different ways. A good angel of God can be a stranger in disguise but the devil has less power and shows up for some in ways to deceive. The devil is very smart and brings bad opportunities to so many's delights. If it is light's in the sky and it convinces one of visiters then the devil is delighted as this will show the bible to be wrong. The devil is a master of deceit and trickery.

I've no doubt that the devil is a deceiver, the Scriptures say he masquerades as an angel of light--he lies, he deceives, he pretends.

I believe in applying a naturalistic methodology to observable phenomenon. If I see something with my own two eyes, the assumption I make is that there is a rational, natural explanation. Even if I don't know what the explanation is. Because not understanding something about the universe is okay, there is far more about the natural, observable, material universe that we don't know than that we know.

To regard something as a phenomenon beyond natural explanation--and therefore "super-natural"--demands more than observation. The resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ was something extraordinary. Human beings do not, as a rule, just stop being dead; and yet Jesus stopped being dead. His bodily flesh was glorified, He became the first-fruits of the resurrection--the signpost, the vindication, of the victory of God over death which shall be the goal of God's work and purpose for all creation. The dead will rise, and God will make all things new: New Heavens and New Earth. Such cannot be known by observation, reason, or speculation--but only by vivid, explicit revelation of God which is received entirely by faith.

God continues to give us signs and seals of these promises, that is why the Gospel is preached, that is why Christ instituted the Sacraments--that through Baptism and the Lord's Supper and the hearing of the word we are continually having faith given and worked in us by God; not only bring the objective reality of the past (of Christ's perfect and finished work on the Cross and His Glorious Resurrection from the dead) but how that is our reality now, by faith, and the reality that is to come. And so we trust and receive the word that is preached, we recognize that Baptism isn't merely water getting us wet, but water connected to God's word, with His promises attached: so that the one who is baptized is not merely getting wet, but is in fact dead, buried, and raised up together with Christ; having "put on Christ" (see Galatians 3:27); and by the same token in the Lord's Supper we do not receive some ordinary meal of food to satisfy our bodily appetites, but is--in some way and somehow--the very body and blood of Jesus Christ, broken and shed for us.

I go on this tangent only to make clear that my issue is not with the "supernatural"; but rather that we should recognize that God made this world, and ordered it; what we observe in nature has natural explanation because this is consistent with the natural order of God's creation. This does not negate that there are extraordinary things, things that are in fact outside of the ordinary, observable, material universe--but such things cannot be known by observation, but only by revelation.

I accept the existence of the devils/demons because Scripture clearly asserts their existence, and Christ Himself speaks of them, casting them out of their victims; and we see the Apostles of our Lord doing the same. And the Church has always recognized that presence and existence of demons--and that part of the Church's ministry in the world is the rebuking and renunciation of these false and hostile powers.

To bridge the gap between "I saw something in the sky, and I don't know what it was" to "Oh, it's probably a demon" is immense. And, I'd argue is closer to superstition than anything else--it is closer to those who attribute missing household items to fairies or other household spirits, or to thinking that there are witches with demonic powers who made a contract with the devil out hiding in the woods waiting to eat children. In other words, this is a Pagan way of thinking, not a Christian way thinking.

It was Pagans, not Christians, who believed in and hunted witches; in fact part of the missionizing efforts of the Church in the middle ages was to dispel such superstition among converts from Paganism. After Charlemagne conquered Saxony and implemented a program of converting the Saxons, one of the things Charlemagne did was outlaw witch-hunting among the Pagan Saxons, making it punishable by death (because, you know, murder).

In the middle ages the Church actively fought against superstition involving witches and magic, teaching that magic is false, and that so-called "witches" have merely been deceived by the devil into thinking they are seeing and experiencing things. One ancient Church document of not entirely known origin is the Canon Episcopi, which pretty explicitly says that every effort must be made to instill in the Faithful a rejection of superstition, and to regard those who believe in witches and their supposed "power" as holding to "heathen" beliefs and ascribing to heretical and blasphemous teachings (ascribing divine-like power to anything other than God). The Canon Episcopi also mentions a prevailing notion of supposed "witches" who experienced night-time visions and were taken on night-time rides with the goddess Diana as nothing more than devilish lies and deception--no such thing actually happens, and those who think that it has happened have been deceived by the devil.

Ergo, it seems appropriate for me to take my present course of action and thought; to ward off false spirituality: i.e. superstition or what the ancient Church called deisidaimonia, the false reverence or fear of the [at least supposedly] supernatural.

God, and God alone, is worthy of awe and reverent fear.

I do not intend to make offense with any of this--but it may be helpful to understand where I'm coming from here, and why.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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