Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

Bob_1000 said:

I agree he’s talking to gentiles but “thou” is one single gentile not all of them.

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So who do you think is that single gentile?

Douggg said:

Redemption of Jerusalem from foreign rule. At the time they were occupied by the Romans.

btw, do you know what the Jews (Judaism) call the "final redemption" ?

The consider the final redemption is when all the children of Israel have been brought back to the land of Israel.

And do you know what the Jews (Judaism) think Salvation is and God their only Savior means? To them, they believe it means physical salvation from one's enemies.

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The fact that Peter denied knowing Christ, pending the cross, already made it clear that no one from Israel, even the little flock, believed that Christ was going to die.

Bob_1000 said:

It’s not just the present body of Christ that’s spiritual Israel, it was Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Samuel, David, Ezekiel, Daniel, and all of the rest of the Old Testament believers in Christ.

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None of them in their lifetimes preached the gospel of Salvation of Jesus. Preaching of the gospel of Salvation of Jesus did not begin until Luke 24:44-48.

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

Guojing said:

So who do you think is that single gentile?

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Because thou is one single person.

thou
pronoun
old use

UK

/ðaʊ/ US

/ðaʊ/

speaking to one person

Bob_1000 said:

Because thou is one single person.

thou
pronoun
old use

UK

/ðaʊ/ US

/ðaʊ/

speaking to one person

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I was asking you who that "one person" is.

If you have no idea, just say so, and we can move on.

grafted branch said:

The question I was asking about was not necessarily for premil only but for anyone who has Israel literally being brought back to their literal land.


In Amos 9:15 it says I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them.


Question 1, is Israel never being pulled up out of their land an unconditional promise? If not can you give scriptural support for the promise being conditional?


Question 2, if it is an unconditional promise then what ever happens to the old earth (prior to NHNE) happens to Israel. What do you think will happen to the old earth?

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Question 2: After the 1000 years based in earthly Jerusalem. Those on earth will continue to live on the New Earth.

To me it would be totally different than current earth which just disappears. I think the new heavens and earth will be larger with more dimensions.

Spiritual Jew said:

And which verses are those? Why is getting you to answer a question like pulling teeth? You must not be very confident about what you believe since you just give vague answers and don't supply any clear supporting scriptural evidence for your claims.

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"But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet."

Do you deny the 1991 years that have passed since 30AD? Between the Cross and the Second Coming is a set of years. Between the Second Coming and the End is a set period of time.

Bob_1000 said:

I don’t remember that being in the Bible, where is it found?

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The word Paradise means Garden. Paradise was sealed by an angel guarding the entrance. The Atonement of the Cross opened up Paradise. That is why Jesus could tell the thief, that day the thief could enter Paradise.

Paradise is that city in Hebrews that all of Adam's offspring have seen in faith as their final home.

"And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."

God removed earthly Paradise for a better Paradise in heaven. It will come down as the New Jerusalem after the NHNE appear. The heavenly Paradise was waiting for the Cross to allow those in Abraham's bosom (by faith) to enter with permanent incorruptible physical bodies. Jesus was the Resurrection and the Life for that very purpose.

Bob_1000 said:

So I assume that you’re one of those who believe “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved“ has an expiration date for gentiles.

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That has an expiration date period.

Guojing said:

I was asking you who that "one person" is.

If you have no idea, just say so, and we can move on.

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Any gentile in the olive tree that’s boasting against the branches that were cut off. In other words the same type of people that were cut off from the olive tree originally. In other words people that pretend to be Christians but don’t know Christ.

Bob_1000 said:

Any gentile in the olive tree that’s boasting against the branches that were cut off. In other words the same type of people that were cut off from the olive tree originally. In other words people that pretend to be Christians but don’t know Christ.

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What is the material difference between

1. Any gentile who does X
2. All gentiles who do X

Timtofly said:

Question 2: After the 1000 years based in earthly Jerusalem. Those on earth will continue to live on the New Earth.

To me it would be totally different than current earth which just disappears. I think the new heavens and earth will be larger with more dimensions.

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Ok, so Israel gets pulled up out of their land and they go to NHNE.


Amos 9:15 says they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them.


How do you explain this conflict?

Spiritual Jew said:

Do we need more than one passage to tell us about souls living and reigning with Christ? I wasn't aware that a verse can't be true unless another verse says the exact same thing. Interesting.

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Well, when it's from a highly symbolic book with no interpretation given by the angel, then yes, I would argue it would be helpful to have another similar passage from non apocalyptic language..... you know, using scripture to interpret scripture, which Amils claim to do.

But on the other hand, you have presented a great defense for Premil, which only uses 1 passage to tell us there will be a literal future 1,000 year reign when Christ returns. At least we know you and premils are on the same page when it comes to using 1 passage in a symbolic book to form a theological doctrine....

Spiritual Jew said:

This is hard to answer since I don't know exactly what the souls of the dead in Christ are doing in heaven. I know that right now we reign with Christ in the sense that we serve Him and help advance His kingdom in the world by preaching the gospel.

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Well, according to you and your interpretation of 1 symbolic passage, they are reigning in heaven, correct?

Spiritual Jew said:

Nope. I'm not doing that. I did not say Christ came into His kingdom the same day He died on the cross. I understand He did that when He bodily ascended to heaven. I'm differentiating between the soul/spirit and the body and I'm not seeing where you are doing that.

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Good, you agree Christ didn't come into his kingdom that same day he died on the across, but AFTER His resurrection when he ascended bodily. We are on the same page here. However, this is creating some questions:

1.) So then the thief on the cross didn't come into the kingdom that same day either, correct?

3.) So then to be consistent, you believe the soul entering heaven upon physical death is not entering the kingdom, correct?




**Remember, the spirit always returned to the Lord post death (ecclesiastes 12:7). This is not some new transition that began after the cross.

So is it your argument that:

1.) prior to the cross: spirit returned to the Lord, Soul went to hades, Body to the grave?

2.) post cross: spirit returned to the Lord, Soul goes to heaven, body in grave until resurrection?

Spiritual Jew said:

I didn't say they weren't related. Maybe you should try paying attention to what I actually say instead of what you imagine me to be saying.

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Excellent, then it appears you agree that vs 1-5 from 2 corinthians chapter 5 are about the resurrection as Paul uses this same language in 1 corinthians chapter 15 to describe the resurrection.

2 corinthians 5:4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

1 corinthians 15:53-55 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” “O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?

2 corinthians 5:5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guaranteed of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

So when our earthly dwelling is destroyed, we have a heavenly eternal home is in regards to the resurrection, correct?

2 corinthians 5:1 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Spiritual Jew said:

Incorrect. What I believe is what Paul was talking about in verses 1-5 is the future hope of the resurrection and change of the body, but what he was doing in verses 6-8 is talking about how being in the body (the body we have now) makes it so that we are away from the Lord. And he very clearly said that being away from the body is to be present with the Lord. But, you are acting as if we need to have a body in order to be present with the Lord. That completely contradicts what Paul said!

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1.) When our earthly tent is destroyed, we have a house, not made by hands IN the heavens.

2 corinthians 5:1 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2.) Paul makes this clear, that when our earthly home is destroyed and we have a house, not made by hands, eternal in the heavens IS ABOUT THE RESURRECTION.

2 corinthians 5:4-5 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

3.) VS 6-8 is simply a rehash of vs 1. Both talk about our earthly home and our heavenly home.

2 corinthians 5:6-8 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

So, according to you, Paul mentioning that if our earthly dwelling is destroyed, we have a home in heaven, in vs 1, is completely different than Paul mentioning if we are away from the body, then we are at home with the Lord in vs 6-8? That is complete nonsense, and a total stretch. I would call that scriptural "gerrymandering". The passages, both before (vs 1-5) and after (vs 10) are both about the resurrection.

Spiritual Jew said:

And he very clearly said that being away from the body is to be present with the Lord. But, you are acting as if we need to have a body in order to be present with the Lord. That completely contradicts what Paul said!

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1.) Well, Paul does say we do not wished to unclothed, but further clothed. So I don't know what you are talking about.

2 .) Paul doesn't actually say that being away from the body "is" to be present with the Lord, so no there is no contradiction.

While vs 6 does use a present indicative active in regards to being home in the body and a present indicative active in regards to being away from the Lord. Paul never uses a present indicative active verb in regards to being at home with the Lord. Paul uses aorist infinitives to denote being absent from the body and at home with the Lord. remember, aorist infinitives do not denote time. Paul, in vs8, simply states he is now confident and pleased to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Paul never says to be absent from the body IS to be at home with the Lord.

Spiritual Jew said:

I believe in verses 6-8 he was talking about the same thing he talked about here:

Philippians 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

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I agree.

Spiritual Jew said:

Tell me, when Paul said "to die is gain" do you think he was saying we don't gain anything from dying until a long time after we die? I don't think so. In verse 23 he said that to depart from his body would result in being with Christ. Does it look to you like he was talking about being with Christ a long time after departing his body? That's not the impression he gave at all. Instead, he gives the impression that departing the body results immediately in being with Christ. Which would mean his soul would immediately be with Christ when he died. You said you don't believe in soul sleep, so I'm not sure why you wouldn't agree with me on this.

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I don't think to die is gain means the soul goes to heaven. I believe for the Christian, death in Christ is a gain because of the resurrection. The Christian does have a desire to depart and be with the Lord, for we know that when we are in our earthly dwelling we know we are away from the Lord.

The Righterzpen said:

If the punishment for sin prohibits one from seeing God in all of His glory; how is Jesus in a glorified state going to rule over a sinful earth, when the glory of God would cause its destruction?



Given premise #1, explain to me how this is going to happen? Also, you didn't answer my question. Why would Jesus physically ruling over a corrupt sinful earth be necessary?

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The 7th Trumpet is the final end of Daniel's 70th week. There is no more sin nor Satan. It is also the end of the 6000 years of Adam's punishment. The Second Coming removes sin from this earth. The final harvest removes Adam's sinful flesh. The Millennium starts with a resurrection with humans in permanent incorruptible physical bodies.

Timtofly said:

The 7th Trumpet is the final end of Daniel's 70th week. There is no more sin nor Satan. It is also the end of the 6000 years of Adam's punishment. The Second Coming removes sin from this earth. The final harvest removes Adam's sinful flesh. The Millennium starts with a resurrection with humans in permanent incorruptible physical bodies.

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So you are NOT the type of premillennialist who believes Jesus rules over a corrupt earth? Is that correct?

Yet Revelation 20:7 states that satan is loosed at the end of the "millennial reign" to "deceive the nations once again."

I agree with you that the 2nd coming dawns the recreation of the cosmos. We do not agree on when the "millennial reign" is and what that consists of.

grafted branch said:

Ok, so Israel gets pulled up out of their land and they go to NHNE.


Amos 9:15 says they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them.


How do you explain this conflict?

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The land changes around them. They are not uprooted. The land is upgraded.

It is the same for the soul. The soul at the Second Coming is not torn out of a body. The body changes around the soul. It is still called death, because the old corruptible physical body dissolves while a new permanent incorruptible body is formed around the soul.

I do not see any one physically on the earth when the old earth passes away changing locations, nor standing before the GWT. One moment their bodies are experiencing the old earth and instantly their bodies are experiencing the new earth. Revelation 20:6 states they are not affected by the second death. They do not need to stand at the GWT. They are not dead, nor ever need to die the first time nor the second time. Those among them who listened to Satan were consumed by fire. They were not, so when the change happens, it instantly happens around their permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They do not even have to move as in walking from one "house" into another "house". Nor moving through the air from one earth to another earth.

Timtofly said:

The land changes around them. They are not uprooted. The land is upgraded.

It is the same for the soul. The soul at the Second Coming is not torn out of a body. The body changes around the soul. It is still called death, because the old corruptible physical body dissolves while a new permanent incorruptible body is formed around the soul.

I do not see any one physically on the earth when the old earth passes away changing locations, nor standing before the GWT. One moment their bodies are experiencing the old earth and instantly their bodies are experiencing the new earth. Revelation 20:6 states they are not affected by the second death. They do not need to stand at the GWT. They are not dead, nor ever need to die the first time nor the second time. Those among them who listened to Satan were consumed by fire. They were not, so when the change happens, it instantly happens around their permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They do not even have to move as in walking from one "house" into another "house". Nor moving through the air from one earth to another earth.

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You apparently have it figured out somehow. And you didn't even need the Bible to do so. Must be nice to have insight into things like that that no one else on the planet has.

Timtofly said:

The land changes around them. They are not uprooted. The land is upgraded.

It is the same for the soul. The soul at the Second Coming is not torn out of a body. The body changes around the soul. It is still called death, because the old corruptible physical body dissolves while a new permanent incorruptible body is formed around the soul.

I do not see any one physically on the earth when the old earth passes away changing locations, nor standing before the GWT. One moment their bodies are experiencing the old earth and instantly their bodies are experiencing the new earth. Revelation 20:6 states they are not affected by the second death. They do not need to stand at the GWT. They are not dead, nor ever need to die the first time nor the second time. Those among them who listened to Satan were consumed by fire. They were not, so when the change happens, it instantly happens around their permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They do not even have to move as in walking from one "house" into another "house". Nor moving through the air from one earth to another earth.

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That explanation is not well supported with scripture but I do appreciate you giving your answer.

DavidPT said:

You apparently have it figured out somehow. And you didn't even need the Bible to do so. Must be nice to have insight into things like that that no one else on the planet has.

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I agree with you statements. I actually was anticipating an answer that had some kind of parallel universes where Israel was in the the old one and current believers going to the new one.