Flat Earth

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Job 33:6

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What's interesting is that Isaiah is describing the same concepts observed in Genesis, Exodus, and Ezekiel.

BDB: only of vault of the heavens חוּג שׁמים התהלך Job 22:14; בְּחֻקֿוֺ חוּג עלֿ תהום ׳פנ Proverbs 8:27; הישֵׁב עַלחֿוּג הארץ Isaiah 40:22.
Ellicott: (22) The circle of the earth—i.e., the vault of heaven over-arching the earth (Job 22:14; Proverbs 8:27).
Cambridge: the circle of the earth] i. e. the horizon, where earth and heaven meet (see Proverbs 8:27), “at the confines of light and darkness” (Job 26:10). The earth with its surrounding ocean is conceived as a flat disc, on which the arch of heaven comes down. The rendering “on the vault of the earth” (see Job 22:14, “vault of heaven,” the same word) is possible, though not so good.
Pulpit Commenatry: Verse 22. - It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth; rather, above the vault of the earth; above the vault of sky which seems to arch over the earth. As grasshoppers; i.e. minute, scarcely visible (comp. Numbers 13:33). That stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain. So in Psalm 104:2, only that here the "curtain" is represented as one of thin gauze. The idea is common to Isaiah with Job (Job 9:8), Jeremiah (Jeremiah 10:12; Jeremiah 51:15), and Zechariah (Zechariah 12:1), and is a favourite one in these later chapters (comp. Isaiah 42:5; Isaiah 44:24; Isaiah 45:12; Isaiah 51:13).
Barnes: The circle of the earth - Or rather, "above" (על ‛al) the circle of the earth. The word rendered 'circle' (חוּג chûg) denotes "a circle, sphere, or arch"; and is applied to the arch or vault of the heavens, in Proverbs 8:27; Job 22:14. The phrase 'circle,' or 'circuit of the earth,' here seems to be used in the same sense as the phrase orbis terrarum by the Latins; not as denoting a sphere, or not as implying that the earth was a globe, but that it was an extended plain surrounded by oceans and mighty waters. The globular form of the earth was then unknown; and the idea is, that God sat above this extended circuit, or circle; and that the vast earth was beneath his feet.

Which also is the same thing observed in ancient cultures:
View attachment 308485 View attachment 308486


A flat land with a dome over it. The dome has windows or floodgates which hold back water. The stars are placed by God in the firmament. Birds fly across the face of the firmament. God's throne, or a human being are observed above the firmament etc. These are all references throughout scripture. Like a sea of glass, like crystal, frozen like ice, like sapphire. Again all referenced language straight from scripture.

It paints a very clear picture of exactly what Isaiah was describing when he described God above a canopy or tent that rested above the circle of the earth.

The difference of course in the OT being that there is a strong focus on God being One, and the elimination of paganism, along with concepts of Imago Dei etc.
 
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ewq1938

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Well there's a difference between a circle and a sphere. A circle can only be so many shapes, but ultimately it's not a sphere.

Yet one's perspective affects this. The moon is a sphere yet it appears to be flat as a coin. The Earth is as much a sphere as the moon but both can be described as a circle.


When Isaiah describes a canopy and a tent, canopy's and tents, they don't go around spheres.

Of course they could not that the writer is speaking of a literal tent.

They rest upon a level surface, like when you go camping, the tent sits on flat ground.

That's odd because the last time I was in a tent, the ground was not very flat.
 
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essentialsaltes

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No one could know the shape of the Earth without being able to fly. They couldn't fly.

The ancient Greeks knew the Earth was spherical thousands of years before powered flight.

As Isaiah 41:10 points out, all the Ancient Near Eastern people, including the authors of the OT, believed in a flat earth surmounted by a solid firmament.
 
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The ancient Greeks knew the Earth was spherical thousands of years before powered flight.

Likely through mathematics but I meant being able to visually see that the Earth is a globe.


As Isaiah 41:10 points out, all the Ancient Near Eastern people, including the authors of the OT, believed in a flat earth surmounted by a solid firmament.

I am not convinced any OT authors believed it was flat because none ever used "flat" as a description not to mention very little of the natural world is even flat. Most of the world is full of hills, mountains and valleys from the human perspective so calling the Earth flat wouldn't have even made any sense since it actually is not flat in most cases. Even deserts have hills and valleys. Jerusalem was built upon many hills. Flattened land is mostly man made.
 
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Job 33:6

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Yea, and actually a sheet of paper isn't flat either. If you look at it closely it actually has ridges and different thicknesses as well. From outer space, mountains and ridges of earth are as subtle as the grooves on a hardwood flood.

But regardless, a circle is a different shape from a sphere. When I use a compass to draw a circle on a piece of paper, it just isn't the same as a sphere, even if I bend it or drop food crumbs on it. And it is this other shape that is being used to describe the shape of earth.

And in practical terms, your tent does sit on flat ground when you go camping, otherwise you would be falling off of the side of the ground. You don't set up a tent on the side of the mountain, you set it up on something relatively horizontal. Unless you're one of those wild mountain climbers that uses steaks to hold a tent against a vertical wall face. But my guess is that Isaiah isn't one of these people. And the same goes for a canopy, tree canopies have a generally horizontal shape and figure, And they rest over generally horizontal ground.
 
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essentialsaltes

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I am not convinced any OT authors believed it was flat because none ever used "flat" as a description not to mention very little of the natural world is even flat.

Right, so what they wrote is not "flat", but rather it is consistent with that common Ancient Near Eastern model. Some land, set in water, surmounted by a solid dome. Something like this:

Cosmogony1.jpg
 
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Some land, set in water, surmounted by a solid dome.

"solid dome"? Neither word appears in the bible at all.

"solid"
occurs 0 time in 0 verses in the KJV.

"dome"
occurs 0 time in 0 verses in the KJV.


I don't agree in the slightest that the image posted represents what any biblical author thought the Earth looked like. Water above the moon made me chuckle :)
 
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But regardless, a circle is a different shape from a sphere.


No, they are the same exact shape when looking at them at the same perspective.

Here's the Moon, a sphere but looks like a solid multi-colored circle. It doesn't look like a sphere from where we are:



penumbral-lunar-eclipse.jpg
 
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essentialsaltes

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d taylor

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The New Jerusalem, shows how ridiculous it is stating God's creation in The Bible is a globe earth.

The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal.
d1927f16ecffd425b6674618c300500f.jpg


images
 
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Try firmament.



God put lights in the firmament, but there are waters above the firmament. Shrug.


That's just the atmosphere and being able to see the stars in the night sky and rain coming from the sky. It is not a firm dome, with water above the moon or in outer space.
 
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The New Jerusalem, shows how ridiculous it is stating God's creation in The Bible is a globe earth.



That's going to look EXACTLY as ridiculous on a coin shaped Earth.

Something like a hat I think :)

can-stock-photo_csp15532399.jpg
 
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Sure it does, because we can see the shading.

Shading alone does not prove a sphere. We only know the moon is not a flat circle because we have flown around it. The moon and all planets look like circles from the Earth. It's only by circling around an object can one see it's true shape, a sphere. People have flown around the Earth and have seen that it's a sphere including Christians. There's no conspiracy here. The Earth is not flat. The very idea is based on very old and non-detailed writings in the bible by ancient people with very little knowledge of the vastness of the Earth and it's shape. People who did not travel the world, especially not in the air. It's amazing they even got a circle correct and this most certainly came from God not their own knowledge. The world is a circle, but many many circles which actually form a spherical shape like all known planets.
 
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d taylor

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No, they are the same exact shape when looking at them at the same perspective.

Here's the Moon, a sphere but looks like a solid multi-colored circle. It doesn't look like a sphere from where we are:



penumbral-lunar-eclipse.jpg

The Moon is not a sphere, spheres can not take the shape of an oval, they (sphere's) stay round no matter where they are viewed from.

The moon is a convex light, facing straight down toward the earth. So as the moon moves away and around the earth, seeing it on or near the horizon it takes on an oval shape. Same for the sun.

DSCN7448.JPG



upload_2021-11-17_18-21-44.jpeg




 
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essentialsaltes

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That's just the atmosphere and being able to see the stars in the night sky and rain coming from the sky. It is not a firm dome, with water above the moon or in outer space.

Sure, that's how you interpret it with the benefit of modern knowledge. But the firm in firmament means solid. Obviously, water can't pass through something completely solid, therefore...

“In the six hundredth year of Noah's life ... and the windows of heaven were opened.”

You can't really frame a window in an atmosphere.

---

Since we can see the moon in different phases, it's easy to see it's roughly a sphere. Because, haha, it certainly doesn't shine of its own light. Only reflected light from the sun (and a teeny bit of earthshine).
 
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The Moon is not a sphere, spheres can not take the shape of an oval

Nope.

The shape of the moon is that of an oblate spheroid, meaning it has the shape of a ball that is slightly flattened which is still a sphere. The Earth is similarly an imperfect sphere. I doubt any planet is a perfect sphere. When anyone speaks of a moon or planet as a sphere they are never saying "perfect sphere".
 
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Sure, that's how you interpret it with the benefit of modern knowledge. But the firm in firmament means solid.

And that's from old French and Latin but the Hebrew word in the manuscripts is this:

H7549
רָקִיעַ
râqı̂ya‛
raw-kee'-ah
From H7554; properly an expanse, that is, the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky: - firmament.
Total KJV occurrences: 17

It doesn't have any meaning of firm or solid but simply the expanse of the visible sky and we can fly right through that stuff so it's not firm or solid in a physical sense.
 
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essentialsaltes

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From H7554; properly an expanse, that is, the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky: - firmament.

I mean if you agree that firmament has some firmness from Latin and French.
And you also agree that the Hebrew word means firmament.
The the original Hebrew is also firm.

There are different kinds of arches, but one thing they have in common is that they are all solid.

Different-Types-Of-Arches.jpg


You can't put windows in an atmosphere. You can't set a throne on top of air.
 
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I mean if you agree that firmament has some firmness from Latin and French.

The OT was not written in French or Latin so that word is meaningless here. IOW it's not the best translation of the Hebrew word.


And you also agree that the Hebrew word means firmament.
The the original Hebrew is also firm.

It does not mean firm. I already provided the Hebrew definition. It means the visible sky, which we call an atmosphere. It is not solid or firm in a physical sense since we can fly right through it.

There are different kinds of arches, but one thing they have in common is that they are all solid.

The sky is not a solid arch.

You can't put windows in an atmosphere. You can't set a throne on top of air.

This is exactly why hyper-literalism is a terrible way to exegete the bible. There is no literal arch or tent or pillars etc.
 
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