Shadow of the mark

parousia70 said:

Philippians 2:19
But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you shortly, that I also may be encouraged when I know your state.

Are you waiting for Timothy's soon arrival to you?

No? Why not? Surely this passage, like all scripture, is for all Christians of all ages, no?

Paul is clearly telling YOU that He trusts that Jesus will be sending Timothy TO YOU, very SOON, no?

It's can't simply be applicable to the 1st century Philippians to whom Paul was addressing ONLY, can it?

Clearly this passages Teaches all Christians of all ages should be saying: "Come Timothy! Come!"

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Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

things which must shortly come to pass

What do you propose is the amount of time involved when it is no longer meaning shortly? For example. Would the next day still be meaning shortly? Would a month later still be meaning shortly? Would a year later still be meaning shortly? Would 10 years later still be meaning shortly? Would 40 years later still be meaning shortly? Would 45 years later still be meaning shortly? Would 60 years later still be meaning shortly? So on and so on. What is the cut off point when it is no longer meaning shortly? Do you have a specific amount of time in mind?

The text says---things which must shortly come to pass. Does that then mean all of these things came to pass at the exact same time? IOW, these things all came to pass the same day. If not, it would not be wrong to take this to mean this---things which must shortly begin to come to pass. That leaves room for things coming to pass back then and far into the future as well, the fact these things obviously don't all come to pass at the same time, to begin with.

DavidPT said:

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

things which must shortly come to pass

What do you propose is the amount of time involved when it is no longer meaning shortly? For example. Would the next day still be meaning shortly? Would a month later still be meaning shortly? Would a year later still be meaning shortly? Would 10 years later still be meaning shortly? Would 40 years later still be meaning shortly? Would 45 years later still be meaning shortly? Would 60 years later still be meaning shortly? So on and so on. What is the cut off point when it is no longer meaning shortly? Do you have a specific amount of time in mind?

The text says---things which must shortly come to pass. Does that then mean all of these things came to pass at the exact same time? IOW, these things all came to pass the same day. If not, it would not be wrong to take this to mean this---things which must shortly begin to come to pass. That leaves room for things coming to pass back then and far into the future as well, the fact these things obviously don't all come to pass at the same time, to begin with.

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I don't see how this answers my question.

However, as to your question, Scripture has the answer!


One only needs to simply hold to the plain teaching of the apostles as to WHEN that prophecy was to come to pass.

It is the apostles that placed the fulfillment of these events in their generation (Matt 24:34/23:36), and they consistently spoke of the fall of Jerusalem as the imminent day of judgment of their times (Lk 21:22, Mt 23:33-24:34; Mt 21:40-45; Lk 19:40-44). This was the desolation of which it was said: "the end of all things is at hand" (1 Pet 4:7); "in a very short while he who is coming will come an will not delay" (Heb 10:37); "the time is short" (1 Cor 7:29); "there are now many antichrists by which we know it is the final hour" (1 Jn 2:18-19); "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show...the things which must soon take place...for the time is at hand" (Rev 1:1,3); "the coming of the Lord is near...behold, the Judge is standing right at the door (Jas 5:8-9); "salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, and the day is near" (Rom 13:11-12); "this generation shall not pass away till all these things be fulfilled" (Mt 24:34).

All of the apostles make this precise declaration before the close of THEIR generation. They could not err -- it is time for futurists to start believing the bible.

They were working within the timeframe that Jesus Christ was to return before the end of their generation to destroy Jerusalem and the Temple as Jesus promised them to their faces (Matthew 24:33-34/Matthew 23:36, Matthew 21:40-45). They knew how to tell time. They knew and taught that "near, at hand, about to take place, in a very little while, without delay, & must shortly come to pass", had arrived at the end of, and could not, indeed did not, extend BEYOND their generation.

The scripture is entirely clear on to whom the vision pertained and for when:

Revelation 1:1,3,11
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place...for the time is near...Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.

The bible doesn't use time as an elastic, allegorical thing. Rather, it is VERY precise. In fact, we have Christ's OWN blessing on the preterist hermeneutic concering the TIME statements (which demand a 1st century Day of Christ at 66-70AD, BTW). Concerning the time statements, Jesus said:

Luke 21:8
And He said, "See to it that YOU [the apostles] are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' AND, 'THE TIME IS NEAR.' Do not go after them.

There we have Christ's own understanding of the time statments as being the proclamation of the true end. It so happens that the Apostles proclaimed "THE TIME IS NEAR AND AT HAND." So the preterist hermeneutic on statments such as "the time is at hand, and near" is fully and explicitly vindicated by Jesus.

Preterists are literalists on the numerous N.T. statements that Christ's coming was "near," "soon," and "at hand" in the apostles time because Jesus Christ himself told them to take such statements LITERALLY as meaning the end had come!

Again:
Luke 21:8
And He said, "See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'THE TIME IS NEAR.' Do not go after them.

Jesus is taking this phrase "THE TIME IS NEAR" in its literal sense to mean that the end had come. The apostles, the only ones authorized by Jesus to make these staments and NOT be false prophets, made them within 40 years after the resurrection!

Remember, Jesus Christ teaches us that these time statements are to be understood LITERALLY as signalling the end had come (Luke 21:8). We have the apostles breaking out in unified voice together that indeed the Lord's return was "NEAR" -- and they did so within 4 decades after the crucifixion and resurrection.

It's time to start believing the bible, folks. The Holy Spirit is indeed at work here. He is working to get his people to believe what He said through the holy INSPIRED apostles . Christ's Judgement Coming on Israel's wicked generation was near at hand, and indeed came to pass, back in the 1st century as the apostles said under inspiration of the Holy Ghost and they could not err. Do not doubt, but be believing.

Now... about Timothy... why are you not expecting his soon arrival to you?

David2019 said:

I've been thinking about this the past week, but is it possible that the vaccine is a shadow of the mark of the Beast that is come during the tribulation? Note that I'm not saying that the vaccine IS the mark, but only a shadow of the real thing that is to come. In the same way that certain feast days and persons in the Old testament were a shadow of the coming Christ (For Example Moses and king David).

Revelation 13:17 (KJV) And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Notice that the verse indicates that no man can buy (go to a store or visit other public places) or sell (go to work) without being in possession of the mark. The same is happening right now with the vaccination mandates. I don't know about the rules and regulations in your country about vaccination and going out into public, but it seems like the entire world is heading towards a society wherein the unvaccinated will be alienated from most public places. It's already happening in a lot of places in Europe.

Let me know what you think.

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2Co 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Go to the Old Testament and find a place where buying and selling are prohibited, then see if you're assumptions are correct.

parousia70 said:

I don't see how this answers my question.

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The example you used in that post, I don't have a dispute with you about that. I agree with your point concerning that. But that example is totally different since it's obvious, the fact Timothy is long gone and dead, that this would have to apply to when he was still among the living at the time. You might try and use that same logic against me and insist the same is true in regards to what we are discussing per Revelation 1:1 as well. Except that verse doesn't mention certain ppl in particular, such as Timothy. It simply says His servants.

DavidPT said:

You might try and use that same logic against me and insist the same is true in regards to what we are discussing per Revelation 1:1 as well. Except that verse doesn't mention certain ppl in particular, such as Timothy. It simply says His servants.

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As I mentioned above, The scripture is entirely clear on "the certain people" to whom the vision pertained and for when:

Revelation 1:1,3,11
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place...for the time is near...Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.

Jesus specifically promises those specific first century Churches specific results that would directly effect and apply to THEM and their First century situations, via His At hand Coming:

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Thyatira
promise: Rev 2:18-25
result: their false prophetess and all her followers would be killed off by
Christ's coming. The Church was granted Christ's authority.

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Pergamum
promise: Rev 2:12-16
result: the heretical Nicolaitans were put down by Christ's coming to
Pergamum. The Nicolaitans that were causing them to break the decree of the Council of Jerusalem were killed (Rev 2:14; cf. Acts 15:28-29).

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Sardis
promise: Rev 3:1-5
result: Christ promises them that his "thief-in-the-night" coming will come
upon them. They had not been faithfully expecting "the thief" as explained to them in Matt 24:43/1 Thess5:2-5. However, a few in Sardis were found worthy and had not soiled their garments. At Christ's coming to them "they walked in white, for they were worthy" (Rev 3:4-5).

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Philadelphia
promise: Rev 3:7-13
result: Christ puts down the then-contemporary Jewish persecution (3:9).
He preserves the Church at Philadelphia through the testing which was then about to come upon the whole empire (3:10). God makes his faithful ones "pillars" in the Temple of God.

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Laodicea
promise: Rev 3:14-21
result: Christ is shown to be knocking at their door as first promised in Matt 24:33 (cf. also James 5:9). If they didn't repent, they were annihilated. Repentant and obedient followers said to become partakers of Christ's heavenly authority.

parousia70 said:

I statred first grade in 1972 with a vaccine mandate, and went through all 12 grades with each passing year having the mandate to be up to date on my vaccines. Everybody in every public school in the country was likewise "on board" with such mandates.

The idea and implimentation of "vaccine mandates" is hardly novel or new.

If it's a "shadow" today it's been a "shadow" for 50 years and counting....

Almost 250 years actually... As George Washington was the first president to order a vaccine mandate...

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Yes but this mandate is different from all previous mandates. They can mandate this because it comes under "emergency authorization" , and to have emergency authorization implemented there can be no other possible cures available.

Hence you cannot obtain today some of the drugs that were available to Donald Trump when he got the virus , they have suppressed any and all possible cures for the virus to allow them to push this vax out under emergency use.

We need to remember how after three or four days of living with the virus , Trump was like a man born again , full of zest and energy. And it wasn't the vax that cured him , as it hadn't been rolled out as yet.

David2019 said:

I've been thinking about this the past week, but is it possible that the vaccine is a shadow of the mark of the Beast that is come during the tribulation? Note that I'm not saying that the vaccine IS the mark, but only a shadow of the real thing that is to come. In the same way that certain feast days and persons in the Old testament were a shadow of the coming Christ (For Example Moses and king David).

Revelation 13:17 (KJV) And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Notice that the verse indicates that no man can buy (go to a store or visit other public places) or sell (go to work) without being in possession of the mark. The same is happening right now with the vaccination mandates. I don't know about the rules and regulations in your country about vaccination and going out into public, but it seems like the entire world is heading towards a society wherein the unvaccinated will be alienated from most public places. It's already happening in a lot of places in Europe.

Let me know what you think.

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Some people do see the rules and regulations that go with the vaccine mandates as a grooming process or dress rehearsal for the coming mark of the beast. I can see where people believe that.

I will never forget seeing this on the news back in 2020.

David2019 said:

I've been thinking about this the past week, but is it possible that the vaccine is a shadow of the mark of the Beast that is come during the tribulation? Note that I'm not saying that the vaccine IS the mark, but only a shadow of the real thing that is to come. In the same way that certain feast days and persons in the Old testament were a shadow of the coming Christ (For Example Moses and king David).

Revelation 13:17 (KJV) And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Notice that the verse indicates that no man can buy (go to a store or visit other public places) or sell (go to work) without being in possession of the mark. The same is happening right now with the vaccination mandates. I don't know about the rules and regulations in your country about vaccination and going out into public, but it seems like the entire world is heading towards a society wherein the unvaccinated will be alienated from most public places. It's already happening in a lot of places in Europe.

Let me know what you think.

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I agree that the jab is not the mark of the beast. However, Satan's playbook is not very deep so it obvious to see what is going on. The jab is so ineffective that the CDC had to redefine "vaccine" to include it. The J&J "vaccine" is only 13% effective after 6 months, which they admit. The real truth is probably worse. There is no Covid vaccine actually. Also, the CDC and NIH have known for decades that masks don't work to stop viruses. Then, all of a sudden they all did an about face on masks. Their "science" is worthless and defies logic. They are clearly obeying the orders from there father, the devil. The purpose of all this madness is to oppress and purge the Christians from government and society at large.

Satan is going to continue to push as long as he can until the righteous stand up and fight back. A showdown is looming in the near future as I see it. Americans wont take another year of this. In Europe it may take a bit longer since they have trusted the nanny state too much and they are deeply entrenched. The saints will continue to suffer until they are more committed to life than the enemy is committed to death. Time for a backbone.

The church is in this mess because we decided to let Satan have government. Jesus will rule in the order of Melchizedek, both high priest and King. He is mighty God and the government is on His shoulders, Isaiah 9:6. The church focused only on the one leg and forgot the other. We let Satan have the government and we are paying the price for it, as we should. (By "church" I mean the people who actually follow Jesus, not an organized religion.) The church will either get stronger in this, or be wiped out. It's our choice. Time to wake up.

skippyroo said:

Yes but this mandate is different from all previous mandates. They can mandate this because it comes under "emergency authorization" , and to have emergency authorization implemented there can be no other possible cures available.

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In August of this year, the Pfizer vax moved beyond "emergency use" for adults to full FDA approval.
Guess that means it a regular mandate now, like the hundred + years of previous vaccine mandates we've lived through without everyone crying "the sky is falling!"..
FDA Approves First COVID-19 Vaccine

Hence you cannot obtain today some of the drugs that were available to Donald Trump when he got the virus , they have suppressed any and all possible cures for the virus to allow them to push this vax out under emergency use.

We need to remember how after three or four days of living with the virus , Trump was like a man born again , full of zest and energy. And it wasn't the vax that cured him , as it hadn't been rolled out as yet.

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We need to remember Trump was Hopped up on a massive amount of Steriods as part of his treatment. THAT is why he seemed so full of vim and vinegar for those few days.
We also need to remember he got vaxxed anyway, after recovering.
The Monoclonal antibidies that he received are absolutely still available, (have no clue where you got that they weren't - got a link?) but expensive and cumbersom to administer widely because it requires inpatient infusion.

Now that there appears to be a 5 day, inexpensive, easy to administer, outpatient antiviral pill regemine on the immediate horizon for post symptomatic infections, the corner has been turned and this pandemic disease will be reduced to an endemic disease (like the seasonal flu) in short order, likely as early as next spring.

Pfizer Says Its Antiviral Pill Is Highly Effective in Treating Covid

Seems The "Boys crying wolf" are going to need to find a new wolf.

Acts29 said:

The church is in this mess because we decided to let Satan have government.

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John MacArthur, an ardent end-time advocate shows us why this is: "Reclaiming the culture is a pointless, futile exercise. I am convinced we are living in a post-Christian society - a civilization that exists under God's judgment."

That quote right there by Dispensationalist John MacArthur is the reason for the increasing paganization of America. Dispensationalists are conflicted: why reform a supposedly "non-reformable" country, society, or world?

The vast majority of American evangelicals are dispensationalists, and they have been taught that America is doomed by God's will because we are in the last days. This has been their gospel for at least the past 100 years, and so those evangelicals and their kids and their grandkids were taught not to govern, run cities, play baseball, launch universities, or even get into media to fulfill one's duty to Christ. Mere personal piety was taught, the kind that doesn't affect anyone or anything else.
Ideas have consequences. Dispensationalist ideas have disastrous consequences (withdrawal, abandonment, escapism, surrender).

The pagans love that fatalistic, defeated view! They are smarter than the dispensationalists since they fully understand that the world of tomorrow is governed by whoever wants to govern it--be it Christans, pagans, whoever. It took almost two generations for pagans to gradually paganize American values and culture. They believed that once the evangelicals were neutralized by endtimes fantasies, they would be able to take over America's government and institutions and laws through hard work and dedication. They were right.

Sadly, endtimers simply continue to stick their heads in the sand and pray for a rapture rescue, dooming their children and grandchildren to a more paganized America.

Their problem is that dispensationalists were taught a castrated, reduced gospel so that they don't even know what it means to have Christ govern their lives, marriages, jobs, society, and country. Moses understood what it meant to have Christ govern lives, societies, families and country. So did Joshua. And David. And the apostles. And King Jesus. And even many of the fathers of America.

Jesus will rule in the order of Melchizedek, both high priest and King.

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Rather, He already does.
"And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth'" (Matthew 28:18)

Jesus Christ, not satan, is God and King over this world (over all of heaven and earth) TODAY:

Ephesians 1:19-23
He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

1 Peter 3:22
Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Revelation 1:5-6
Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood--and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father--to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever.

The church will either get stronger in this, or be wiped out. It's our choice. Time to wake up.

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Matthew 16:18 is NOT fake news. Nor is it a promise that any human action can undo, overturn or prevent:
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

parousia70 said:

John MacArthur, an ardent end-time advocate shows us why this is: "Reclaiming the culture is a pointless, futile exercise. I am convinced we are living in a post-Christian society - a civilization that exists under God's judgment."

That quote right there by Dispensationalist John MacArthur is the reason for the increasing paganization of America. Dispensationalists are conflicted: why reform a supposedly "non-reformable" country, society, or world?

The vast majority of American evangelicals are dispensationalists, and they have been taught that America is doomed by God's will because we are in the last days. This has been their gospel for at least the past 100 years, and so those evangelicals and their kids and their grandkids were taught not to govern, run cities, play baseball, launch universities, or even get into media to fulfill one's duty to Christ. Mere personal piety was taught, the kind that doesn't affect anyone or anything else.
Ideas have consequences. Dispensationalist ideas have disastrous consequences (withdrawal, abandonment, escapism, surrender).

The pagans love that fatalistic, defeated view! They are smarter than the dispensationalists since they fully understand that the world of tomorrow is governed by whoever wants to govern it--be it Christans, pagans, whoever. It took almost two generations for pagans to gradually paganize American values and culture. They believed that once the evangelicals were neutralized by endtimes fantasies, they would be able to take over America's government and institutions and laws through hard work and dedication. They were right.

Sadly, endtimers simply continue to stick their heads in the sand and pray for a rapture rescue, dooming their children and grandchildren to a more paganized America.

Their problem is that dispensationalists were taught a castrated, reduced gospel so that they don't even know what it means to have Christ govern their lives, marriages, jobs, society, and country. Moses understood what it meant to have Christ govern lives, societies, families and country. So did Joshua. And David. And the apostles. And King Jesus. And even many of the fathers of America.

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You've got Fire! I love it. I agree. "Occupy until I come." That doesn't mean hide in the bushes and do nothing to resist the devil. We are still on the earth because we have work to do.

parousia70 said:

Rather, He already does.
"And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth'" (Matthew 28:18)

Jesus Christ, not satan, is God and King over this world (over all of heaven and earth) TODAY:

Ephesians 1:19-23
He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

1 Peter 3:22
Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Revelation 1:5-6
Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood--and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father--to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever.

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Would you suggest Jesus is responsible for all the corrupt governments of this world? The current wickedness in this world is not the result of Jesus' pitiful leadership.
God is eternal and routinely prophesies in the present or even past tense. For example, in Psalm 22 it is written in the present and past tense although it wasn't fulfilled for another 1000 years at the cross.
All authority is given to Jesus at the 7th Trumpet. Notice His first act at that time will be to deliver His elect and cast Satan out of heaven.

parousia70 said:

Matthew 16:18 is NOT fake news. Nor is it a promise that any human action can undo, overturn or prevent:
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

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Precisely. No one can undo what He has DONE! That means we are going to wake up and prevail.

Acts29 said:

Would you suggest Jesus is responsible for all the corrupt governments of this world? The current wickedness in this world is not the result of Jesus' pitiful leadership.

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I would suggest it is a mistake to state that Jesus’ exercise of His sovereign will is evidence of His “pitiful leadership”.

I would suggest that Jesus, the present and reigning God-King, has chosen by his sovereign will to allow the wicked to continue along side the righteous in his kingdom. (Matthew 13:24-30)

He his converting people out of the pagan world of unbelief and transferring them into his kingdom ("He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son" - Col 1:13). He is making these converts the salt and light of the world and the city on the hill--as man is intended to be. He is redeeming them.

Jesus has chosen to allow the present history of his kingdom to admit sinners, and to convert many of them from evil to good. But for sure, even in this permission, God is ruling over all kings and men today.

Acts29 said:

God is eternal and routinely prophesies in the present or even past tense. For example, in Psalm 22 it is written in the present and past tense although it wasn't fulfilled for another 1000 years at the cross.
All authority is given to Jesus at the 7th Trumpet. Notice His first act at that time will be to deliver His elect and cast Satan out of heaven.

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The OT is ripe with Type/Shadow.
For sure the psalmist, when speaking in past tense, is referencing literal events that had befallen him. That they, as a shadow, point to Christ is pretty much awash throughout all OT prophesy.

The Rub comes where the New Testament prophets never taught that their proclamations were type/shadow for some future, greater fulfillment’s.

When Jesus says “ all authority HAS BEEN GIVEN” me in heaven and on earth” we can believe Him! He is not prophesying inType/Shadow of some future, greater “Authority” He had yet to receive..
Likewise when the NT apostles say that Jesus went to Heaven “AFTER angels and powers and authorities HAD BEEN subjected to Him” we can believe them that this in fact happened! It is not a Type and Shadow prediction of some future, greater “subjection” to Him by those authorities.
For Christ is no Shadow, but the object itself.

Once Christ is come the shadows are done away (Col 2:16-17). The heavenly things that arrived in Christ's advent are the object for which the types only were shadows (Heb 8:4-5). These heavenly New Covenant things are the final destiny. The Law contained the shadow but not the very image of such great things (Heb 10:1-2). We have the heavenly things now. They have been delivered and they are the END product, not the mere means to some future and better end product. The eternal New Covenant IS the destination. One could say that the entire book of Hebrews, from chapter 1 to chapter 13, argues this exact point. The biblical answer answering this whole question is written down as the book of Hebrews (all).

What happens when we apply a TYPOLOGICAL reading to New-Covenant-Age things as if they were mere types (i.e., as if they were the MEANS to some end and not the end itself)?
What happens is that the Cross and blood of Jesus then becomes a mere TYPE of some future and TRUE salvation for the whole world that hasn't happened yet. The many other N.T. fulfillments are then made TYPES as well. This runs exactly contrary to the understanding of the writer of Hebrews and Paul (assuming they are not the same). To them, the New Covenant consists in and of the TRUE HEAVENLY THINGS for which all prior earthly types merely pointed to.

Therefore, when Jesus says “I saw Satan fall like lightning from Heaven” we can say with confidence that this indeed has already happened, it is no more a typological reference to some future, greater “falling from heaven” yet to take place than the cross is a typological reference to some future, greater sacrifice of Christ for our sins.

parousia70 said:

I would suggest it is a mistake to state that Jesus’ exercise of His sovereign will is evidence of His “pitiful leadership”.

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I did not say that. Let me ask you a question.

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

If Jesus was given all authority AT the time He said it in Matthew 28, why is He given authority again at the 7th Trumpet in Revelation?

parousia70 said:

I would suggest that Jesus, the present and reigning God-King, has chosen by his sovereign will to allow the wicked to continue along side the righteous in his kingdom. (Matthew 13:24-30)

He his converting people out of the pagan world of unbelief and transferring them into his kingdom ("He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son" - Col 1:13). He is making these converts the salt and light of the world and the city on the hill--as man is intended to be. He is redeeming them.

Jesus has chosen to allow the present history of his kingdom to admit sinners, and to convert many of them from evil to good. But for sure, even in this permission, God is ruling over all kings and men today.

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God is always on the throne, of course. Read carefully, that parable in Matthew 13. Jesus said the reapers will gather out of HIS kingdom. His kingdom becomes His kingdom at the 7th Trumpet.

John 14:30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.

parousia70 said:

The OT is ripe with Type/Shadow.
For sure the psalmist, when speaking in past tense, is referencing literal events that had befallen him. That they, as a shadow, point to Christ is pretty much awash throughout all OT prophesy.

The Rub comes where the New Testament prophets never taught that their proclamations were type/shadow for some future, greater fulfillment’s.

When Jesus says “ all authority HAS BEEN GIVEN” me in heaven and on earth” we can believe Him! He is not prophesying inType/Shadow of some future, greater “Authority” He had yet to receive..
Likewise when the NT apostles say that Jesus went to Heaven “AFTER angels and powers and authorities HAD BEEN subjected to Him” we can believe them that this in fact happened! It is not a Type and Shadow prediction of some future, greater “subjection” to Him by those authorities.
For Christ is no Shadow, but the object itself.

Once Christ is come the shadows are done away (Col 2:16-17). The heavenly things that arrived in Christ's advent are the object for which the types only were shadows (Heb 8:4-5). These heavenly New Covenant things are the final destiny. The Law contained the shadow but not the very image of such great things (Heb 10:1-2). We have the heavenly things now. They have been delivered and they are the END product, not the mere means to some future and better end product. The eternal New Covenant IS the destination. One could say that the entire book of Hebrews, from chapter 1 to chapter 13, argues this exact point. The biblical answer answering this whole question is written down as the book of Hebrews (all).

What happens when we apply a TYPOLOGICAL reading to New-Covenant-Age things as if they were mere types (i.e., as if they were the MEANS to some end and not the end itself)?
What happens is that the Cross and blood of Jesus then becomes a mere TYPE of some future and TRUE salvation for the whole world that hasn't happened yet. The many other N.T. fulfillments are then made TYPES as well. This runs exactly contrary to the understanding of the writer of Hebrews and Paul (assuming they are not the same). To them, the New Covenant consists in and of the TRUE HEAVENLY THINGS for which all prior earthly types merely pointed to.

Therefore, when Jesus says “I saw Satan fall like lightning from Heaven” we can say with confidence that this indeed has already happened, it is no more a typological reference to some future, greater “falling from heaven” yet to take place than the cross is a typological reference to some future, greater sacrifice of Christ for our sins.

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The Psalms have nothing to do with David or anyone else that wrote them. The Psalms were written by the Spirit. They are prophecies just like the rest of the prophets. God is the author.

Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Spirit: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’

It isn't about a type or shadow of things to come. Heaven and earth will not pass away until every letter of the scripture comes to pass. Therefore, God meant exactly what He said and the Psalms will come to pass to the letter. They are not historical writings. A scholar, convinced of his own brilliance and leaning on his own understanding, cannot see these things. But, we should. For example, Jesus is speaking in the first person past tense 1000 years before this was fulfilled:

Psalms 40:6 Sacrifice and offering You wanted not; but a body You have prepared Me: whole-burnt-offering and sacrifice for sin You did not require. 7 Then I said, “Behold, I come: in the volume of the book it is written concerning Me.” 8 I desired to do Your will, O my God, and Your law in the midst of My heart. 9 I have preached righteousness in the great congregation; lo! I will not refrain My lips; O Yehovah, You know My righteousness. 10 I have not hid Your truth within My heart, and I have declared Your salvation; I have not hid Your mercy and Your truth from the great congregation.

11 But You, Yehovah, remove not Your compassion far from Me; Your mercy and Your truth have helped Me continually. 12 For innumerable evils have encompassed Me; My transgressions have taken hold of Me, and I could not see; they are multiplied more than the hairs of My head; and My heart has failed Me. 13 Be pleased, O Yehovah, to deliver Me; O Yehovah, draw near to help Me. 14 Let those that seek My soul, to destroy it, be ashamed and confounded together; let those that wish Me evil be turned backward and put to shame. 15 Let those that say to Me, 'Aha, aha,' quickly receive shame for their reward.

That isn't a type or shadow. It is direct prophecy of Jesus. The volume of the book (Scriptures) is written concerning Him. His transgressions were ours that He took upon Himself, etc.

One more example. Jesus bore my sin and your sin long before we were born let alone committed any sin. How can that be? God is eternal. Eternity encompasses ALL of time, beginning to end. He IS the beginning and the end at the same time. Therefore, God does not speak like man who is within time using past/present/future tenses. He speaks from eternity from any point in time as one who is present at that time. God doesn't change from OT to NT. He is the same.

Acts29 said:

The Psalms have nothing to do with David or anyone else that wrote them. The Psalms were written by the Spirit. They are prophecies just like the rest of the prophets. God is the author.

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As He is the author of ALL scripture.
Do you therefore claim NO scripture had anything to do with those who penned it?

It isn't about a type or shadow of things to come. Heaven and earth will not pass away until every letter of the scripture comes to pass.

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Rather, the LAW of Moses was determined not to pass away before the event of Heaven and earth passing.

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. (Matthew 5:18)

I concur with:
C.H. Spurgeon On New Heavens and Earth (1865)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354)

The hebrew phrase "heavens and earth" is very often symbolic in scripture and has various uses in both the N.T. and O.T. For example, Jesus said we would know "heavens and earth" had passed when the Law of Moses had been removed (Matthew 5:17-19), which was at AD 70. That's why Mark 13:1-31 about the destruction of the Temple also ties in the removal of "heaven and earth" (Mk 13:31) where only Christ's teaching remains after the Temple is gone. The writer of Hebrews confirms this use of "heavens and earth" by saying that the switch over of the Old Covenant system to the New Covenant System was through and by the shaking of "heavens and earth" (Hebrews 12:18-28).

We are to understand it as it was used by the OT prophets, Jesus and the writer of Hebrews in the Context of God's Judgment Comings. We can see that Jesus' didn't mean the physical planet -- rather, it meant the passing away of the Old Covenant World and the planting of the New Covenant Kingdom, which all can agree is a present fulfilled reality that we aren’t still waiting for.

Acts29 said:

I did not say that.

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You most certainly implied it. The clear implication of your position being “if Jesus rules over all kingdoms today, the mere existence of pagan governments would be evidence of ‘pitiful’, ineffectual leadership, therefore He can’t be ruling today”

I have already demonstrated such an implication is totally unfounded.

Let me ask you a question.

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

If Jesus was given all authority AT the time He said it in Matthew 28, why is He given authority again at the 7th Trumpet in Revelation?

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And Daniel said it would be Given Him at the ascension:

Daniel 7:13-14
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him.

We’ve now identified at least 3 different time periods where scripture proclaims Jesus receives His power and dominion over all of heaven and earth. Which testimony do you say is correct?

I have not found any scripture to contradict the fact that Jesus rules over all kings of the earth today (Rev 1:5; Matt 28:18) and has the preeminence in all things and over all dominions, and powers and principalities TODAY (Col 1:16-18,20; 1 Pet 3:22).

David2019 said:

We are definitely not living on the new heavens and new earth at this moment.

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Or, we are.

How do you explain this verse:

Revelation 21:1-4 (NIV)

Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

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I already explained how the Bible often uses the phrase Heaven and Earth to describe Nations, Governments and Social Orders. Do you Deny this?

And the Bible often uses "sea" to describe Gentile Nations in contrast with The jews, who were The tribes of “the land”.
What the Bible says about Sea as Symbol.

17 Bible verses about Sea, Metaphorical References

In the “Heavens and earth” of the new covenant order, there is neither Jew nor Greek. There indeed is no more sea.

2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

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Hebrews 12:22 says this is a PRESENT REALITY
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,

The CHURCH is the BRIDE, again, a PRESENT REALITY
Ephesians 5:22-27
2 Corinthians 11:2
Revelation 19:7-9

3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

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This is Undeniably a PRESENT REALITY
Matthew 18:20
Matthew 28:20

4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes.

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Does God Not Wipe away your tears today?
He sure does mine.

There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

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The prophet Isaiah predicted that the Messiah would carry their sorrows (Isaiah 53:4). As a result, the believer is left with joy in the Holy Spirit, as stated in Romans 14:17 and John 15:11.

Adding to the joy of the believer is the promise of eternal life in heaven through Jesus’ redemptive work on the cross (John 17:3). Because of this sacrifice, there is no more death or crying for an absent, Unreachable God, as the old order (of the Law of Moses which could ONLY Condemn) has passed away.

John 11:26 is NOT Fake News.
And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Do you Believe this? I do.

1 Corinthians 15:54-56
"then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up -- to victory; Where, O Death, is thy sting? Where, O Hades is thy victory?' And the sting of the death is sin, AND THE POWER OF SIN IS THE LAW

This simple passage, which all agree is the victory slogan over death clearly teaches that the victory over death came at the close of the MOSAIC LAW AGE, not some close of the New Covenant Age (there is no end of the Evenrlasting Gospel age, That's why it's called Everlasting).

One thing to be made clear is that this victory is only and ever for those IN CHRIST. There is NEVER an end of Sin and death for those outside of a covenentant relationship with Him. Communion with Christ is the ONLY way out of Sin and Death..... The Unrepentant will NEVER share in that victory.

Lastly, I'll leave you with Isaiah's Inspired, Infallible description of the New Heavens and Eath time Period: (and remember this New H&E is placed in contrast with the Heavens and Earth God Created in the Wilderness with Moses AFTER He parted the sea and led the Hebrews out of Egypt in Isaiah 51:16)

Isaiah 65
17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.

20“No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the Lord,
And their offspring with them.

In this passage we see that in the New heavens and earth period there WILL BE:
Procreation
Birth
Ageing
Death
Sinners
The need for Shelter from the elements
Vocations/Labor
The need for nourishment
The passing of time marked in days

And even In Revelation 22:15 we see that on the New Earth, Just outside the Gates of the City, are Liars, fornicators, Sorcerers and people actively practicing Lies.

I would say your hyper-literal Utopian catatonic version of the New Heaven and Earth Period (Where people apparently won’t even be allowed to cry tears of Joy) doesn't square with any of the above scriptures at all.
You'd have to rip these out of your Bible for it to fit your view.