John's Revelation

Status
Not open for further replies.

eclipsenow

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works
Dec 17, 2010
8,303
1,735
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟142,676.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Revelation 20 specifically states that Jesus will reign with His saints on earth for a thousand years.
The thousand years is reiterated six times . It is years, not an illogical and incorrect metaphor, as some like to make it.
Repetition is not evidence of literary genre. In fact, sometimes it actually indicates metaphor - like the repetition of patterns going up into Noah's ark being mirrored exactly coming out - in what they call Chiastic Structure.
Chiastic structure - Wikipedia

Repetition in Hebrew can replace adjectives. They don't bother trying to say "Absolutely most Holy" - they just say it 3 times. Holy Holy Holy! Repeat until you GET IT!

Revelation is the most symbolic book of the bible, using numbers and symbols more than any other book.

Below is just a sample of all the times 1000 should be read as "a gazillion" or "the fullest number of". It's like today when people say "A billion here, a billion there and pretty soon you're talking about real money." It's an uncontested fact that the Hebrews often used a thousand in the sense of "a gazillion times" or "a gazillion men" or "a gazillion years" or even "forever".
Let's take a look.

Psalm 50: "I bring no charges against you concerning your sacrifices or concerning your burnt offerings, which are ever before me. I have no need of a bull from your stall or of goats from your pens,
for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills."
(As there are over a million mountains on earth - let alone all the foothills - it would seem very strange for this verse to literally be saying God's abundant ownership of the whole world LIMITS him to just ONE THOUSANDTH of the hills on earth! That would be a VERY strange reading of the passage!)

Deuteronomy 1:11 - "11 May the Lord, the God of your ancestors, increase you a thousand times and bless you as he has promised!"
(The promise to Abraham was that his descendants would be too numerous to count - are we going to completely nerf that promise and literally say they'd only increase a thousandfold from their exact numbers that day? Of course not!)
Deuteronomy 7:9 - "Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments."
(This one basically means forever - a gazillion)

Psalm 105:8 - "He remembers his covenant FOREVER, the promise he made, for a THOUSAND generations"
(What is it? Forever, or only a mere 1000 generations? No - it's Hebrew literary repetition, where forever and 1000 are interchangeable. Conclusion? Not literal.)

Psalm 91:7 - "A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you." (I mean, is it 1000 or 10,000? How can the author be out by a factor of 10? He's not out - because it's not literal - it's saying "a gazillion will fall, NO, 10 gazillion!" It's literary, not literal.)
Isaiah 60:22 - "The least of you will become a thousand, the smallest a mighty nation."
(You mean there are literal limits on God's people? I thought God promised Abraham that there would be too many, like the sand in the desert or the stars in the sky.)

Psalms 84:10 - "Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked."
(This one is saying one day serving God with the righteous is better than a gazillion elsewhere - NOT 2.73 years exactly.)
Judges 15:16 - "Then Samson said, “With a donkey’s jawbone I have made donkeys of them. With a donkey’s jawbone I have killed a thousand men.”

Job 9:3 - "Though they wished to dispute with him, they could not answer him one time out of a thousand."
(Again, it's not that they disputed with him each day and only 1 person managed to answer him every 2.73 years. It's saying "not one in a gazillion" or basically no one ever answered him.)

1000 Year Reign of Christ? So where does the phrase “1000 Year Reign of Christ” appear in scripture? The answer is it does not appear in scripture. Neither will you find the word “millennium”? Does this surprise you? Revelation 20:3-8 is the only passage in scripture that anyone can point to as referring to a “1000 year reign.” What endless variations of concocted fables have resulted! Clearly it does not contain the detail that they attribute to it.

First, it should be pointed out that scripture does not speak of “the thousand year reign of Christ.” Revelation 20:4 says, "I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded ... came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. " Notice that it’s not Christ that reigns 1000 years! It’s those who were killed for God’s sake that reign with Christ 1000 years. There are nineteen (19) Bible verses that declare that Christ’s reign is forever. Revelation 11:15 is one of the nineteen: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever." So why would Revelation 20 contradict this by saying it was only 1000 years?
It's not Christ ruling on earth for a gazillion years, but the matyrs reigning in heaven with Christ. Consider the phrase, “Jane Doe served with the governor for one year.” Does this mean the governor served for only one year? No - the governor could serve for many years. The point is not how long the governor served but how long Jane served with the governor. The governor isn’t the subject; it is speaking about how long Jane serves with him. Likewise, Revelation 20:4 is not about how long Jesus will reign, but how long others will reign with Jesus. There’s a big difference.
So what do the scriptures reveal about the number 1000? It is a number that typically signifies the idea of “immensity,” “fullness of quantity” or “multitude.” The number can represent a large number or extended period of time. This general interpretation applies both to the Old Testament as well as the New Testament.
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,702
2,492
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟293,696.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Revelation is the most symbolic book of the bible, using numbers and symbols more than any other book.
Your opinion, one that downgrades and denigrates the Book of Revelation.
It is not symbolic to say a thousand years and when the Bible says it six times, notice should be taken of it.

Your constantly repeated verses mentioning thousand; ALL refer to things other than years: men, generations, mountains, etc.
They totally fail to prove your case of no Millennium reign of Jesus.
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Your opinion, one that downgrades and denigrates the Book of Revelation.
It is not symbolic to say a thousand years and when the Bible says it six times, notice should be taken of it.
The beast is mentioned over 30 times in the book of Revelation. According to your sound logic, that's strong evidence that it's talking about a literal beast with seven literal heads and ten literal horns, right?

The book of Revelation also references the Lamb over 30 times. So, using your trustworthy logic, that means it's referring to a literal lamb, right? Some people think the Lamb refers to Jesus, but Jesus is obviously not a literal lamb, so I guess that can't be right. At least, according to your logic.

Your constantly repeated verses mentioning thousand; ALL refer to things other than years: men, generations, mountains, etc.
They totally fail to prove your case of no Millennium reign of Jesus.
Silly him for showing how the word "thousand" is used symbolically in scripture. But, that doesn't mean anything, right? It can be used symbolically to refer to a lot of things, but it clearly can't be used symbolically in reference to years because....well, just because. Right?
 
  • Like
Reactions: eclipsenow
Upvote 0

eclipsenow

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works
Dec 17, 2010
8,303
1,735
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟142,676.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Your opinion, one that downgrades and denigrates the Book of Revelation.
Ha ha ha

Sorry pal, but I pay it the respect it deserves and actually stop and ask "What genre are you? Why are you so colourful? How did the ancients read you? What are these weird symbols in you? How am I a 21st Century WASP going to understand your unusual imagery?" before I jump in and just bulldoze it with my own Sci-Fi agenda.

It is not symbolic to say a thousand years and when the Bible says it six times, notice should be taken of it.
Repetition is not an argument

Your constantly repeated verses mentioning thousand; ALL refer to things other than years: men, generations, mountains, etc.
Generations are a measure of time, no?

Newsflash - if 1000 is always literal - heaven only lasts 40,000 years
 
Upvote 0

eclipsenow

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works
Dec 17, 2010
8,303
1,735
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟142,676.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
The beast is mentioned over 30 times in the book of Revelation. According to your sound logic, that's strong evidence that it's talking about a literal beast with seven literal heads and ten literal horns, right?

Beautiful!

The book of Revelation also references the Lamb over 30 times. So, using your trustworthy logic, that means it's referring to a literal lamb, right? Some people think the Lamb refers to Jesus, but Jesus is obviously not a literal lamb, so I guess that can't be right. At least, according to your logic.

I never realised we are the true church of the space-lamb! :oldthumbsup:
(Thanks for counting how many times these symbols were used.)

Screen Shot 2020-08-15 at 6.10.28 pm.png
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,702
2,492
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟293,696.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
The beast is mentioned over 30 times in the book of Revelation. According to your sound logic, that's strong evidence that it's talking about a literal beast with seven literal heads and ten literal horns, right?
No. Revelation 13 is quite clear that the 'beast' is a man. Proved by Daniel 7:23-26
but it clearly can't be used symbolically in reference to years because.
Yes, because it literally says the thousand IS years.
How am I a 21st Century WASP going to understand your unusual imagery?" before I jump in and just bulldoze it with my own Sci-Fi agenda.
It is your fault that you are ignorant of heliophysical science.
What the Bible plainly says the Lord will use on His Day of fiery wrath, is a Coronal Mass Ejection. Isaiah 39:26, Malachi 4:1, Psalms 50:1-4, +

A few years ago, there was quite a bit of information and warnings of how a big CME would badly affect the earth, but now; very little.
It seems that scientists have been told to shut up about it.
Repetition is not an argument
Ask one of your 'experts'; Is there any significance if the Bible repeats a warning, a prediction or a time period?
Generations are a measure of time, no?
No. A Biblical generation merely refers to the people alive at that time.
Family generations are all different times, as we all well know.

In Matthew 24:32-34 refers to the people alive when the fig tree becomes alive again. Judah is symbolized by the fig tree and it is our generation who has seen it.
I never realised we are the true church of the space-lamb!
Praise God, He gave us His Lamb to take away our sins.
Jesus was the sacrificial Lamb, repeat that as many times as you like.
 
Upvote 0

eclipsenow

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works
Dec 17, 2010
8,303
1,735
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟142,676.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
No. Revelation 13 is quite clear that the 'beast' is a man. Proved by Daniel 7:23-26
I'm sorry but you are so obviously wrong.
If 1000 is literal because it is repeated 6 times, then the 'beast' and the 'lamb' are both literal because they are repeated 30 times each.
Come on - do the math!
Be consistent!
How many times have you yelled "SIX TIMES!" at us?

Yes, because it literally says the thousand IS years.


Psalm 105:8 - "He remembers his covenant FOREVER, the promise he made, for a THOUSAND generations"
(What is it? Forever, or only a mere 1000 generations? No - it's Hebrew literary repetition, where forever and 1000 are interchangeable. Conclusion? Not literal.)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,702
2,492
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟293,696.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
I'm sorry but you are so obviously wrong.
You aren't sorry and it is you who is wrong.
I am not obviously wrong to challenge your beliefs. That I am right, is proved by your inability to disprove the literal statement of a thousand years. Opinion doesn't cut it, or the metaphors about cattle on a thousand hills, or a thousand generations, etc. They fail to prove your case.
If 1000 is literal because it is repeated 6 times, then the 'beast' and the 'lamb' are both literal because they are repeated 30 times each.
This is kind of silly. Everyone, incl you, knows that Lamb and beast in Bible prophecy, mean Jesus and the Anti-Christ.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

eclipsenow

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works
Dec 17, 2010
8,303
1,735
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟142,676.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
You aren't sorry and it is you who is wrong.
I am not obviously wrong to challenge your beliefs. That I am right, is proved by your inability to disprove the literal statement of a thousand years. Opinion doesn't cut it.
Your opinion is irrelevant.
The bible's consistent use of 1000 as a symbol of gazillion is well established. It does it with livestock on the gazillion hills, Sampson's gazillion victims, God blessing and increasing Israel a gazillion times, one day in God's praise is worth more than a gazillion outside - his blessings last for a gazillion generations, and there will be a gazillion years in between Jesus Resurrection and Return.

This is kind of silly. Everyone, incl you, knows that Lamb and beast in Bible prophecy, mean Jesus and the Anti-Christ.
Yup, and when we read 1000 in the following verses everyone, including you, knows what 1000 really means - they just don't want to admit it.

Psalm 50: "I bring no charges against you concerning your sacrifices or concerning your burnt offerings, which are ever before me. I have no need of a bull from your stall or of goats from your pens,
for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills."
(As there are over a million mountains on earth - let alone all the foothills - it would seem very strange for this verse to literally be saying God's abundant ownership of the whole world LIMITS him to just ONE THOUSANDTH of the hills on earth! That would be a VERY strange reading of the passage!)

Deuteronomy 1:11 - "11 May the Lord, the God of your ancestors, increase you a thousand times and bless you as he has promised!"
(The promise to Abraham was that his descendants would be too numerous to count - are we going to completely nerf that promise and literally say they'd only increase a thousandfold from their exact numbers that day? Of course not!)
Deuteronomy 7:9 - "Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments."
(This one basically means forever - a gazillion)

Psalm 105:8 - "He remembers his covenant FOREVER, the promise he made, for a THOUSAND generations"
(What is it? Forever, or only a mere 1000 generations? No - it's Hebrew literary repetition, where forever and 1000 are interchangeable. Conclusion? Not literal.)

Psalm 91:7 - "A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you." (I mean, is it 1000 or 10,000? How can the author be out by a factor of 10? He's not out - because it's not literal - it's saying "a gazillion will fall, NO, 10 gazillion!" It's literary, not literal.)
Isaiah 60:22 - "The least of you will become a thousand, the smallest a mighty nation."
(You mean there are literal limits on God's people? I thought God promised Abraham that there would be too many, like the sand in the desert or the stars in the sky.)

Psalms 84:10 - "Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked."
(This one is saying one day serving God with the righteous is better than a gazillion elsewhere - NOT 2.73 years exactly.)
Judges 15:16 - "Then Samson said, “With a donkey’s jawbone I have made donkeys of them. With a donkey’s jawbone I have killed a thousand men.”

Job 9:3 - "Though they wished to dispute with him, they could not answer him one time out of a thousand."
(Again, it's not that they disputed with him each day and only 1 person managed to answer him every 2.73 years. It's saying "not one in a gazillion" or basically no one ever answered him.)

1000 Year Reign of Christ? So where does the phrase “1000 Year Reign of Christ” appear in scripture? The answer is it does not appear in scripture. Neither will you find the word “millennium”? Does this surprise you? Revelation 20:3-8 is the only passage in scripture that anyone can point to as referring to a “1000 year reign.” What endless variations of concocted fables have resulted! Clearly it does not contain the detail that they attribute to it.
 
Upvote 0

AdB

Heb 11:1
Jul 28, 2021
598
82
55
Leusden
✟71,650.00
Country
Netherlands
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You're scolding me for not replying to 'your argument' but I'm not sure you remember which one applies where? Right now I'll make it simple.

Context DOES matter. Daniel asked the Angel a specific question about a specific timing for a specific event. Show me where the same happens in Revelation?

May I remind you that you brought up this question only since yesterday?
And I've been repeating my argument for 7 times by now... So let me quote you:
What did I say us Millennials say Satan is bound with regards to? What does REVELATION say he is bound specifically in regards to? Go on - quote me - just so I know you've grasped what I'm actually saying.
to say, go back and read what I repeated 7 times since October 29th...
You tried to counter my argument with stuff like the usage of same phrasing and the same root for ball/ekball, which I countered already, but you never addressed my actual argument.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

AdB

Heb 11:1
Jul 28, 2021
598
82
55
Leusden
✟71,650.00
Country
Netherlands
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I love how you say "obliterates" as if you've even comprehended what I'm saying in the first place - or thought through this stuff for years. You haven't - nor have you comprehended what Riddlebarger is saying. A piece of advice? Tone it down a bit - you haven't earned the right to speak like this.
You get upset about me using one word you feel is inproper, but let me give you an anthology of your own writings and please consider if these are very polite?

You're the master of false dichotomies. You think you've found some exception to a rule (I haven't even stated in the first place) then quote your exception and yell OBLITERATED!
Ha ha ha - oh the humanity! Just calm down a bit hey? You'll live longer. :oldthumbsup:
You're not comprehending a single thing I posted - it's sad.
Your word games are invalid because the context over-rides your twisting and turning at minutiae.
Ha ha ha
Sorry pal, but I pay it the respect it deserves and actually stop and ask "What genre are you?
I'm sorry but you are so obviously wrong.
If 1000 is literal because it is repeated 6 times, then the 'beast' and the 'lamb' are both literal because they are repeated 30 times each.
Come on - do the math!
Be consistent!
How many times have you yelled "SIX TIMES!" at us?
Your opinion is irrelevant.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: keras
Upvote 0

AdB

Heb 11:1
Jul 28, 2021
598
82
55
Leusden
✟71,650.00
Country
Netherlands
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That would be correct if it were not for the fact that John doesn't say the martyrs are Resurrected, he is showing them 'coming to life' and reigning with Christ where Christ is.
According to your logic the "rest of the dead" are also not resurrected but merely "coming to live" is this mystical way you apply to verse 4.
Rev 20:5
"The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection."
 
Upvote 0

AdB

Heb 11:1
Jul 28, 2021
598
82
55
Leusden
✟71,650.00
Country
Netherlands
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The martyrs reigned with Christ - where is Christ? He hasn't returned yet - no where does the passage spell that out. This is still in heaven. NOTE how they came to life without going to hell - the 'second death'. Basically we could call this 'second life'. It's heaven, the weird in between state when humanity is waiting for the actual resurrection.
Christ's return to Earth is described in Rev 19...

First, it should be pointed out that scripture does not speak of “the thousand year reign of Christ.” Revelation 20:4 says, "I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded ... came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. " Notice that it’s not Christ that reigns 1000 years! It’s those who were killed for God’s sake that reign with Christ 1000 years.
Rev 20:4 says "And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."
So the resurrected saints are CO-reigning with Christ

The reign of Christ is eternal, during the millennium the saints co-reign with Christ on Earth to set the stage to showcase specific truths just as every period in Earth's history was there to set the stage for other truths to be showcased. Remember that all of human history is to be a witness to God's glory...
 
Upvote 0

AdB

Heb 11:1
Jul 28, 2021
598
82
55
Leusden
✟71,650.00
Country
Netherlands
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Your opinion is irrelevant.
The bible's consistent use of 1000 as a symbol of gazillion is well established. It does it with livestock on the gazillion hills, Sampson's gazillion victims, God blessing and increasing Israel a gazillion times, one day in God's praise is worth more than a gazillion outside - his blessings last for a gazillion generations, and there will be a gazillion years in between Jesus Resurrection and Return.


Yup, and when we read 1000 in the following verses everyone, including you, knows what 1000 really means - they just don't want to admit it.

Psalm 50: "I bring no charges against you concerning your sacrifices or concerning your burnt offerings, which are ever before me. I have no need of a bull from your stall or of goats from your pens,
for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills."
(As there are over a million mountains on earth - let alone all the foothills - it would seem very strange for this verse to literally be saying God's abundant ownership of the whole world LIMITS him to just ONE THOUSANDTH of the hills on earth! That would be a VERY strange reading of the passage!)

Deuteronomy 1:11 - "11 May the Lord, the God of your ancestors, increase you a thousand times and bless you as he has promised!"
(The promise to Abraham was that his descendants would be too numerous to count - are we going to completely nerf that promise and literally say they'd only increase a thousandfold from their exact numbers that day? Of course not!)
Deuteronomy 7:9 - "Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments."
(This one basically means forever - a gazillion)

Psalm 105:8 - "He remembers his covenant FOREVER, the promise he made, for a THOUSAND generations"
(What is it? Forever, or only a mere 1000 generations? No - it's Hebrew literary repetition, where forever and 1000 are interchangeable. Conclusion? Not literal.)

Psalm 91:7 - "A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you." (I mean, is it 1000 or 10,000? How can the author be out by a factor of 10? He's not out - because it's not literal - it's saying "a gazillion will fall, NO, 10 gazillion!" It's literary, not literal.)
Isaiah 60:22 - "The least of you will become a thousand, the smallest a mighty nation."
(You mean there are literal limits on God's people? I thought God promised Abraham that there would be too many, like the sand in the desert or the stars in the sky.)

Psalms 84:10 - "Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked."
(This one is saying one day serving God with the righteous is better than a gazillion elsewhere - NOT 2.73 years exactly.)
Judges 15:16 - "Then Samson said, “With a donkey’s jawbone I have made donkeys of them. With a donkey’s jawbone I have killed a thousand men.”

Job 9:3 - "Though they wished to dispute with him, they could not answer him one time out of a thousand."
(Again, it's not that they disputed with him each day and only 1 person managed to answer him every 2.73 years. It's saying "not one in a gazillion" or basically no one ever answered him.)

1000 Year Reign of Christ? So where does the phrase “1000 Year Reign of Christ” appear in scripture? The answer is it does not appear in scripture. Neither will you find the word “millennium”? Does this surprise you? Revelation 20:3-8 is the only passage in scripture that anyone can point to as referring to a “1000 year reign.” What endless variations of concocted fables have resulted! Clearly it does not contain the detail that they attribute to it.
Why are you repeating this whole list? We can read back to the initial post, and this has been addressed by Dougg and myself, to which it seems you haven't responded?
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,777
3,419
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,569.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
  • Agree
Reactions: keras
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

eclipsenow

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works
Dec 17, 2010
8,303
1,735
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟142,676.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Daniel: At least by your silence you grant the Amil's consistency in reading Daniel's 70 weeks as 'literal' because the angel was answering Daniel's specific question about a specific timeframe to a specific event.

Coming to life: they came to life as a symbol of their safety in Christ. We know they are in heaven because they are before the heavenly thrones mentioned earlier in Revelation. The rest 'come to life' to meet the second death - Judgment Day.

Rev 19 describes the end of the world - which is what happens when Jesus returns. Rev 20 answers a different question - what happens to martyrs before that time - and is there anything to encourage us while we wait for the end of the world? (There is - the gospel will go forth.) As such, we have a heavenly snapshot and after Rev 19's climactic end which is the end of the world there would just BE no one to rule!

1000: I have to repeat the number of times 1000 is used symbolically in the OT quite regularly because it is devastating to the futurist's case, and the futurist replies to it are trite. I also never know when someone else will be reading through these lists. I'm not trying to persuade you or win an argument with you. I'm trying to leave a witness to the fact that not every Christian believes in bizarre literal readings of the most symbolic book of the bible. I'm writing for the lurkers and casual browsers.

"The 1000 years in Revelation 20 is literal because it has a beginning and an end."
That is trite. It's still entirely consistant to use the 1000 here as a non-literal 'gazillion years' (huge expanse of time) between Jesus Resurrection and his Return. 1000 can mean 'a huge number beyond counting' without being infinite. But sometimes 1000 means forever - like the OT verse where God's blessings will be with them forever - for 1000 generations. But in this passage we see that the period WILL end because Jesus WILL Return to the earth. It's just adding to the nuance of the period we now live in - that Satan can't stop the church growing and at the end he and all his allies will be held accountable for the evil they do and judged. There is no literal one anti-Christ to worry about - but the concern is if we don't hold fast to the gospel - we could become the most dangerous of anti-Christs. The anti-Christ that rises within the church itself.
The devil you know

Satan bound: You asserted back in post #88 that Jesus referred to Satan falling LIKE lightning - so therefore it's allegory. You appeared to argue that Revelation must be literal because it doesn't use "like". That's just not a valid way to understand the whole genre of literary type that Revelation is. Apocalyptic symbolism was a well known type of writing common from 200BC to about 200AD. There are rules as to how to read it. Your trite reference to there not being a 'like' there is about as sensible as someone saying Juliet's balcony scene is literal because there is no 'like' there.
"It is the east, and Juliet is the sun!" Therefore she's a ball of fusing hydrogen gas a million miles wide. I don't think so. In a similar fashion, we could also argue that Jesus is a space-lamb with 7 horns and 7 eyes. I mean, show me the like? Same with the beast. Show me the like?
"13 The dragon[a] stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast."
Reading this literally is like playing Dungeons and Dragons.

Then there's this:
So the direction of "casting" in John 21:31 is OUT, which I think is talking about Satan being cast out of Heaven because of Jesus sacrifice, thus not able any more to accuse the saints (Rev 12:10b). While the direction of "throwing" Rev 20:3 is INTO a place, which is clearly the pit.
Which is all straining at gnats while swallowing a camel. Are you really saying Satan was 'in heaven' before then and not able to influence events on the earth before then? That he was only cast out of heaven then? What does that mean?

Why are you ignoring the immediate context of the missionary work of Jesus disciples - are you afraid that it might actually indicate what Revelation 20 is actually saying?

Then you get a bit triumphalist and link together a bunch of 'arguments' that just don't seem to fit together.
So in my view my assertions still stands that Rev 20:3 "could not deceive the nations" doesn't mean "could not prevail over the Church or prevent the Gospel from spreading", that Rev 20:3 and Luke 10:18 are two different events, and that the thousand years in Rev 20:3 are to be taken literally.
I'm not sure what you mean by "prevail over the church"? Are you saying that because Satan can inspire governments to persecute his people (EG: Iran, North Korea) that this somehow contradicts Revelation 20?

Well, that's not how Revelation's apocalyptic symbolism works, because John can say rather different and contradictory things about the period between Jesus Resurrection and Return because Revelation is NOT a march but a waltz. EG: Revelation 6 is the end of the world, but then the story continues. Revelation 19 is the end of the world, but then the story continues. Because it's not a timeline - but a sermon encouraging us to consider these "Last Days" we are in from a variety of different angles and subjects.

In a similar way, part of Revelation can describe persecution of the gospel, and another part can describe the victory of the gospel. Why? Because both are true theologically and in history. We see Satan inspiring the government to persecute the church in Iran and China, but we also see the this intense persecution causing the growth of the gospel. It weeds out the sloth and makes people more serious about what they believe.

Then you just leap to the startling conclusion that because Rev 20 and Luke 10 are two different events Rev 20 is meant to be read literally? I agree Luke 10 is a different event - describing the missionary work of Jesus disciples before his death and resurrection. They were actually doing that - and Jesus used highly symbolic language to describe missionary work. That is unavoidable - no matter how you want to dress it up. That is a fact.

Now what does Revelation 20 mean? Well, the due process in hermeneutics is to ask where else we have seen phrases similar to that? We know Apocalyptic Symbolism was common 200BC to 200AD. We know roughly how it works - a colourful way to communicate through symbols. We know Jesus used symbolic language to describe the literal advance of his kingdom. So Revelation is the most symbolic book in the bible - and Revelation 20 uses symbolic language again. Therefore, the 'fall like lightning' is very important. It helps us unpack what this symbolic book is saying here.

It describes the fact that the martyrs in heaven can at least have comfort that God's kingdom advances on earth. It's really not that hard. If anyone requires more detail on Satan being "bound" they can re-read about the Greek origins of the words here.
John's Revelation
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,777
3,419
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,569.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
That is trite. It's still entirely consistant to use the 1000 here as a non-literal 'gazillion years' (huge expanse of time) between Jesus Resurrection and his Return.
No, it is not trite. It is the dagger into the heart of the Amil argument.

The 1000 years have an end in the text with a specific event of Satan being released that coincides with Satan being imprisoned at the beginning of the 1000 years.

A beginning and an end.

All of those examples regarding 1000 you cited were not years, or days, or months - i.e. units of time. They were 1000 something else's.

But in this passage we see that the period WILL end because Jesus WILL Return to the earth
That is not what the text says. It doesn't say....

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Jesus WILL Return to the earth.

it says....

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
 
Upvote 0

eclipsenow

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works
Dec 17, 2010
8,303
1,735
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟142,676.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
No, it is not trite. It is the dagger into the heart of the Amil argument.
You get 10 points for highly symbolic writing.

The 1000 years have an end in the text with a specific event of Satan being released that coincides with Satan being imprisoned at the beginning of the 1000 years.
And so your argument rests on this somehow contradicting the use of 1000 in the rest of the bible? It most frequently means "a gazillion" - a very large number - not infinity. In only a few instances does it seem to indicate forever. So the fact that the gazillion years has a "beginning and an end" is entirely consistent with the use of 1000 in the OT.

All of those examples regarding 1000 you cited were not years, or days, or months - i.e. units of time. They were 1000 something else's.
So what?? I mean it! So what? The number still means the same thing - a huge number. And it's just wrong to insist that none of the OT verses relate to time.

Deuteronomy 7:9 - "Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments."

A generation is time

Psalm 105:8 - "He remembers his covenant forever, the promise he made, for a thousand generations"

A generation is time

Psalms 84:10 - "Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked."

A thousand days are time

Indeed, the literalist / futurist case is even weaker now.
The OT use of 1000 with generations or days seems to mean forever!

It seems John has to spell out this gazillion years comes to an end precisely BECAUSE the Old Testament use for '1000' units of time (whether generations or days) seems to mean 'forever'.

In other words, BECAUSE 1000 units of time is such a strong metaphor for FOREVER - John has to spell out that the Last Days are just a really, really long time... but finite. They will come to an end.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,777
3,419
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,569.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
And so your argument rests on this somehow contradicting the use of 1000 in the rest of the bible?
It is not 1000 stand alone. It is 1000 years.

We have 20/20 hindsight that a number when associated with years is literal...

Jeremiah 25:11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

Those seventy years had an ending, which Daniel was aware of when he prayed his prayer as recorded in Daniel 9.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.