The fate of Satan, the beast and his demons mirror each other

sovereigngrace

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I posted a similar post in a recent thread. But it got lost in the weeds. I think there is some important and compelling evidence that we should consider.

Revelation is just like every other book in the Bible: it describes two kingdoms that are in constant spiritual conflict with each other. John the apostle is giving insight into different aspects of the invisible and visible warfare going on in this current age. When the kingdom of darkness is described it is shown to be currently spiritually restrained and curtailed in regard to their power and influence. The kingdom of God on the other hand is seen in the triumphant Church that brings life and hope to an ignorant world through the great commission.

Kingdoms and their heads are basically indivisible. The head of each state (whether Monarch, President or Prime Minister) is seen as the face of the nation or the personification of what that nation is all about. They are essentially the voice of the people. Even in United Kingdom law, perpetrators of a crime are listed as “R – v the criminal” meaning “Regina v” in a legal case, Regina referring to the Queen. She is counted as the offended party, even though she was not personally injured. She is simply the representative head of the people. The leader has always been viewed as the one who stands on behalf of countless subjects.

The king and his kingdom are used synonymously and interchangeably throughout Scripture. The kingdom of God is described in Scripture in terms that are synonymous with Christ Himself. He is its head and its very purpose for existing; Satan likewise is the same in the kingdom of darkness. He is the representative head/king of the kingdom of darkness. These are a unitary whole.

A kingdom is basically “a king with a domain.” You do not have a king without a kingdom. You do not have a kingdom without a king (or queen). Basically, where you have the king, you have the kingdom, or, where you have the kingdom, you have the king. The kingdom of God is a kingdom of power, authority and spiritual truth, and the kingdom of darkness is a kingdom of spiritual lies and deception.

When the Bible talks about the activity of the devil, it sometimes includes the phrase “and his angels.” They are depicted as a collective whole. They move and fight as a unitary army. For example, Scripture describes them in Matthew 25:41 as “the devil and his angels,” in Revelation 12:7 as “the dragon … and his angels,” and in Revelation 12:9 as “that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan … and his angels.” You cannot divorce the king from his kingdom. A kingdom without a king is not a kingdom.

Satan is described as “the prince (or ruler) of the devils” in Matthew 9:34, 12:24 and Mark 3:22. Matthew 9:34 extends the name to “Beelzebub the prince of the devils.” In Revelation 9:10-11 the scorpion-like demonic host (that is shown to be currently incarcerated within the abyss) are said to have “a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.” This can be no other that Satan. Strong's says: “Apolluon means a destroyer (i.e. Satan).”

Satan is actually a king that has a throne. He carries authority and kingship over the kingdom of darkness. We see reference to that in Revelation 2:13 where it says, “I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat [Gr. thronos] is.” This statement did not in any way limit the throne of Satan to the city of Pergamos. Now, of course, the devil is not a physical being, so he does not have to sit upon a physical throne. This is basically a symbol speaking of Satan’s dominion over that particular city. Revelation 13:2 also refers to this, saying “the dragon gave him (the beast) his power, and his seat [Gr. thronos], and great authority.” Satan’s throne is not limited to one geographic city or nation. It is seen where lives submit to his lies and influence and implement his will.

Another thing we should note, before moving on, Satan is the actual source of power for the beast. The beast therefore does not function outside of Satan and his authority. The beast is as reliant upon the devil for his power as a large flat-screen television is reliant upon electricity. While these two evil entities are distinction there is a definite, notable and intimate inter-dependence upon each other. This agrees with 2 Thessalonians 2, where the mystery of iniquity is described as “him, whose coming is after [Gr. kata or through or according to] ‘the working’ [Gr. energeia] of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.” Thayer says the Greek word energeia means working, energy or efficiency. In the New Testament it is only used “of superhuman power, whether of God or of the evil.”

The fate of Satan, the beast (spirit of antichrist / mystery of iniquity) and the fallen angels (demons) are therefore all knit together in Scripture. When Satan was banished from the Garden then all evil was. They also all came under the same spiritual subjugation at the exact same time through Christ’s earthly ministry.

Christ didn't just defeat Satan 2,000 years ago, he defeated the demonic kingdom. Every demonic spirit was subjugated through the cross-work and placed in a place of spiritual restraint after the life, death and resurrection of Christ. The freedom and restriction that pertains to Satan permeates down through his subjects as he is the representative head. When the kingdom of darkness is described, it is shown to be currently spiritually restrained and curtailed in regard to their power and influence. The kingdom of God on the other hand is depicted as a triumphant Church that brings life and hope to an ignorant world.

John Calvin rightly says, that Christ “teaches us not only that the tyranny of Satan was abolished by Christ’s death, but also that he himself was so laid prostrate, that no more account is to be made of him than as though he were not. He speaks of the devil according to the usual practice of Scripture, in the singular number, not because there is but one, but because they all form one community which cannot be supposed to be without a head.”

When Satan was bound through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ then the kingdom of darkness was bound (including the beast and every demon). 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. The bruising of the head of the beast (Revelation 13:3, 13:12 and 13:14) correlates with the bruising of the head of Satan 2,000 years ago through the earthly ministry of Christ (Genesis 3:15). They correspond with the spiritual binding imprisoning of Satan during the millennial period. These are figurative metaphors describing the impairment of the kingdom of darkness 2000 years ago.

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

When the Bible says “resist the devil, and he will flee from you” this is not limited to only Satan, it is talking about the whole demonic realm. When Satan is released prior to the second coming so also is the whole kingdom of darkness (including the beast and every demon). When they are finally punished they receive their punishment at the same time, albeit in the necessary order that Christ ordains (as we saw God judge in the Garden of Eden).

Revelation 12:9 shows the close linkage between Satan and his minions when they were banished from heaven after the man child was caught up to His throne: “the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” Revelation 12:3- similar says: “behold a great red dragon, And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.” You cannot divide Satan from the fate of his angels.

Of course, Christ predicted the historic and eternal downfall of Satan in John 12:31-33, shortly before the cross: “Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”

Christ’s death, burial and resurrection were the decisive blows against Satan. His defeat has already been wrought. This passage plainly shows the powerful result of Calvary and the deep impact it had upon Satan. It shows us that Satan is now under Christ’s feet and is now subject to His Sovereign will. Satan and his minions are barred from heaven. They have been banished after they were defeated 2,000 years ago.

All we have to do, is examine the fate of each in Scripture and we will quickly see a remarkable correlation.

The book of Revelation consists of a number of parallel recaps relating to the intra-Advent period. Each of these refer to different subjects, entities or aspects of God's unfolding plan during that time. That does not negate the fact that God's dealings with the beast mirrors that of Satan since Christ’s first Advent. For example, the 6th recap (Revelation 17-19) focuses in on Babylon, but also shows the destruction of all the wicked, the beast and false prophet been banished into the Lake of Fire. Satan is simply not the focus of that parallel. The focus of the last recap (Revelation 20) is God's dealing with Satan. Revelation 20 goes right back to the first resurrection (Christ). It finishes with Satan being banished to the Lake of Fire.

The restraint of the kingdom of darkness stays in effect until just before the second coming, when hell’s legions are collectively released – for a short season at the end. The release of Satan, beast (mystery of iniquity), and demons (scorpions) all occur just prior to the second coming. This proves that the symbolism of Revelation relates to the here-and-now.

Satan gets a little season to wreak havoc on the Church. When Satan is released for a little season then so is the beast, and Satan's minions. We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released before the second coming for a little season.

The end of the millennium and Satan's "little season" corresponds with the end time persecution spoke elsewhere in Revelation and in other Scripture orchestrated by antichrist/the beast (described as lasting 3 1/2 years). The millennium does not follow Revelation 17-19 in time, but rather parallels it. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recapitulations.

What happens at the end of the millennium mirrors what other Scripture tells us happens at the end of our age. There is an intense persecution at the end. Christ comes to judge as it concludes. There is much Scripture that teaches an end-time falling away and tribulation before Christ comes. Revelation 20 fits that perfectly. Satan's season mirrors 2 Thessalonians 2 and the release of the mystery of iniquity before Jesus comes. As the ESV states: “the mystery of lawlessness is …the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish.” It also mirrors the release of the beast in order to wreak havoc before Christ comes.

After Satan's last throw comes the end! Christ comes in majestic and eternal glory to overthrow the kingdom of darkness forever. The demonic realm is all killed when Satan is destroyed at the climactic second coming and from the brightness of His glory (Isaiah 26:19-27:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 19:20, 20:9-10).

What arrives at the second coming is the eternal state - perfection. The earth will be finally and wholly purged of the bondage of corruption, not as Premils argue: we are plagued with another age like ours full of sin and sinners, crying and dying, Satan and his demons. This alleged future Premil millennial kingdom ends with the wicked overrunning the age to come and surrounding Christ in all His glory and the glorified saints.
 
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DavidPT

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The OP was rather lengthy, yet I managed to read every bit of it, though maybe not carefully at all times. There are so many points made in the OP, where does one even begin, in order to address them? If one tried to address every single point made, it would require pages and pages in order to even do so. Some of what you posted in the OP I don't necessarily disagree with, while some other things I do. So how is it then that we can have agreement about some of these things and then still arrive at totally different conclusions in the end?

I did click the 'like' button, which doesn't mean I am agreeing with everything in the OP then. It just means that I liked some of the points you raised here.
 
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sovereigngrace

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The OP was rather lengthy, yet I managed to read every bit of it, though maybe not carefully at all times. There are so many points made in the OP, where does one even begin, in order to address them? If one tried to address every single point made, it would require pages and pages in order to even do so. Some of what you posted in the OP I don't necessarily disagree with, while some other things I do. So how is it then that we can have agreement about some of these things and then still arrive at totally different conclusions in the end?

I did click the 'like' button, which doesn't mean I am agreeing with everything in the OP then. It just means that I liked some of the points you raised here.

Understand. Thanks!

I think you will see that the general thrust of my post is showing the correlating fate of the overall enemy's camp during the intra-Advent period. When we bring all the evidence to the table, they connect and compare closely. The same occurs with the kingdom of God. We have our part in the substitutionary life, death and resurrection of Christ and now operate in the blessing of that. We reign now over the kingdom of darkness because Christ already defeated it. The elect angels function strictly within the parameters of the authority and guidelines of the kingdom of God.

To divorce the fate of Satan, beast and his minions is to miss their wholesale subjugate to the kingship of Christ and their shared defeat since the cross.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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Hi as a futurist I see all the events of Rev to 20 occur before the millennium is to begin and you have them coming at the end of the millennium. The scriptures show that Armageddon is the end of the tribulation and the beginning of the millennium. After the 1000 years Satan is loosed and gathers an army to surround the city and fire comes down from heaven and that is it. Basic reading comprehension has these events clearly separated by the 1000 years.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Hi as a futurist I see all the events of Rev to 20 occur before the millennium is to begin and you have them coming at the end of the millennium. The scriptures show that Armageddon is the end of the tribulation and the beginning of the millennium. After the 1000 years Satan is loosed and gathers an army to surround the city and fire comes down from heaven and that is it. Basic reading comprehension has these events clearly separated by the 1000 years.

I fully realize why you hold what you do, I too used to be a Premil. My difficulty is: your whole thesis is based solely upon Revelation 20 being chronological to Revelation 19. But there are multiple reasons why this cannot be so. I have listed a few above. But the No. 1 issue is: this position carries no other corroboration in Scripture. The No. 2 issue is: Revelation 19 is climactic. It is the end of the world and the end of the wicked. It therefore forbids the Premil paradigm.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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I fully realize why you hold what you do, I too used to be a Premil. My difficulty is: your whole thesis is based solely upon Revelation 20 being chronological to Revelation 19. But there are multiple reasons why this cannot be so. I have listed a few above. But the No. 1 issue is: this position carries no other corroboration in Scripture. The No. 2 issue is: Revelation 19 is climactic. It is the end of the world and the end of the wicked. It therefore forbids the Premil paradigm.


Hi Rev is not going to contradict the other passages of scripture and there are hundred that show a before and after picture with life continuing after the 2nd coming. I look at Luke one which speaks of the time Jesus takes the throne of David and his kingdom covers the earth and has no end. The prophecy by teh Holy Spirit by Zacharias says Jesus will keep the oaths, promises, prophecies and covenants to the fathers that Israel would be delivered from their enemies and from that point on they will worship and serve the LORD in holiness and without fear all the days of their lives.

If you look at every prophecy that shows this deliverance it makes a strong case for futurism. In Zech 14 the day the LORD is proclaimed king over all the earth Jerusalem is being overrun and 1/2 the city is taken captive and that is when the LORD comes and slays the invaders and in that day the Mount of Olives splits in two and forms a new valley a river that will flow one branch east. It is going to flow year round and from that point on the nations which are left must now come to Jerusalem and Keep the feast of Tabernacles and worship the king or they will get no rain. This river is promised in Ezekiel to heal the dead sea and it becomes a prosperous fishing area and at this same time time the 12 tribes receive their inheritance in the promised land.

In focus of what Luke 1 says fro this time on no fear and the key verse in Zech 14 is in that day they will say the LORD is one. This is Jesus having come an they are confessing He is LORD. I can show hundreds of verses that all show the same before and after picture when the kingdom comes and life continues on earth after it is established.

I have many close family and friends in your camp and see merit in the idea of spiritual Israel but I like Ezekiel and Hosea the day where not my people are called sons of the living God. Great is the day of Jezreel which is where it was said not my people and is the place where they are restored. Jezreel is another name for the valley of Megido or Armageddon.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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The OP was rather lengthy, yet I managed to read every bit of it, though maybe not carefully at all times. There are so many points made in the OP, where does one even begin, in order to address them? If one tried to address every single point made, it would require pages and pages in order to even do so. Some of what you posted in the OP I don't necessarily disagree with, while some other things I do. So how is it then that we can have agreement about some of these things and then still arrive at totally different conclusions in the end?

I did click the 'like' button, which doesn't mean I am agreeing with everything in the OP then. It just means that I liked some of the points you raised here.
It's up to you, but how about you address the concept that all of our spiritual enemies (Satan, his angels and the beast) would be bound and restrained at the same time rather than just one at a time.

I believe it makes no sense to believe that just the beast would be bound and restrained while Satan and his angels are not. You and I agree that the beast was in the pit as of the time of the writing of Revelation (based on Rev 17:8), but you think Satan, and I assume his angels as well, were not. Why exactly would only the beast be bound in the pit while Satan and his angels are not? Please explain that.

As I've pointed out to you before, Revelation 13 gives the strong impression that Satan and the beast work hand in hand and depend on each other, so anything that affects one will affect the other. And anything that affects Satan will affect his angels as well. I think that goes without saying since he is clearly their leader.

So, I'd like to know why and how the beast could be bound in the pit while Satan, and presumably his angels, are not. If Satan can do all his dirty work unrestrained even while the beast is in the pit, then what is the point of Satan working with the beast as described in Revelation 13? Why would Satan bother with the beast if he can do it all himself (or if he and his angels can do it all themselves)? It seems that you think Satan doesn't actually have any use for the beast because he can do the same things with or without the beast (and with or without the second beast/false prophet for that matter).
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I fully realize why you hold what you do, I too used to be a Premil. My difficulty is: your whole thesis is based solely upon Revelation 20 being chronological to Revelation 19. But there are multiple reasons why this cannot be so. I have listed a few above. But the No. 1 issue is: this position carries no other corroboration in Scripture. The No. 2 issue is: Revelation 19 is climactic. It is the end of the world and the end of the wicked. It therefore forbids the Premil paradigm.
Did you notice that his view is based on "basic reading comprehension"? Is that what Paul said we should use to interpret scripture? I don't believe so.

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Basic reading comprehension is what "the natural man" uses to try to understand God's word. But, Paul made it clear that the words of scripture must be "spiritually discerned" by "comparing spiritual things with spiritual". I don't see premils doing that with Revelation 20. They are not using other scripture to help them understand Revelation 20, they are interpreting Revelation 20 in isolation and forcing the rest of scripture to fit their interpretation of that passage.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Hi Rev is not going to contradict the other passages of scripture and there are hundred that show a before and after picture with life continuing after the 2nd coming. I look at Luke one which speaks of the time Jesus takes the throne of David and his kingdom covers the earth and has no end.
Jesus took the throne of David long ago when He was resurrected from the dead, as Peter taught here:

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Notice here that the God promised David that He would raise up someone in his line, which was obviously Jesus Christ, to sit on David's throne. Peter said that the way in which that prophecy was fulfilled was through the resurrection of Christ. God told David that He would RAISE UP Christ to sit on David's throne and Peter said He was talking about the RESURRECTION of Christ. So, Christ was RAISED UP to David's throne by being RAISED UP from the dead. That is what Peter clearly taught here, but you have to be willing to accept that instead of insisting on holding on to your long held beliefs about this.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Jesus took the throne of David long ago when He was resurrected from the dead, as Peter taught here:

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Notice here that the God promised David that He would raise up someone in his line, which was obviously Jesus Christ, to sit on David's throne. Peter said that the way in which that prophecy was fulfilled was through the resurrection of Christ. God told David that He would RAISE UP Christ to sit on David's throne and Peter said He was talking about the RESURRECTION of Christ. So, Christ was RAISED UP to David's throne by being RAISED UP from the dead. That is what Peter clearly taught here, but you have to be willing to accept that instead of insisting on holding on to your long held beliefs about this.

Well put!
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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Jesus took the throne of David long ago when He was resurrected from the dead, as Peter taught here:

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Notice here that the God promised David that He would raise up someone in his line, which was obviously Jesus Christ, to sit on David's throne. Peter said that the way in which that prophecy was fulfilled was through the resurrection of Christ. God told David that He would RAISE UP Christ to sit on David's throne and Peter said He was talking about the RESURRECTION of Christ. So, Christ was RAISED UP to David's throne by being RAISED UP from the dead. That is what Peter clearly taught here, but you have to be willing to accept that instead of insisting on holding on to your long held beliefs about this.


Hi John in Rev was told to write the things which he saw chapter one and the things that are chapters 2 and 3 and the things that will take place after this. Now in the category of things still to take place are the angels proclaiming the kingdoms of God have become the kingdoms of our LORD and His Christ and He shall rule forever and ever.

I agree Jesus will take the throne of David as that is obvious the when is still future.
The prophecy in Isaiah 9
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

In my view of world history the world has not been established with judgment and justice from the time Jesus takes the throne. Now Jesus is to rule the nations with a rod of iron and they shall beat their swords into plowshare and there spears into pruning hooks and shall learn war no more.

No one is bring swords and spears to the new Jerusalem. These before and after pictures support the literal case. Zech 9 on this theme of peace established
“Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your King is coming to you;
He is just and having salvation,
Lowly and riding on a donkey,
A colt, the foal of a donkey.
10 I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim
And the horse from Jerusalem;
The battle bow shall be cut off.
He shall speak peace to the nations;
His dominion shall be ‘from sea to sea,
And from the River to the ends of the earth.

Now dominion is taking total control and not reigning by proxy. In Zech 14 the LORD is king life continues after He has come this day has not happened and from this day on the millennium starts and the world peace is established. Luke one shows that these promises are all kept.

When is the day of vengeance of our God as in Isaiah 61? If you read this chapter it cannot be 70 AD because Zion is saved and lifter up not destroyed. This sure matches the Armageddon Zech 14 notion that this is future.

Here is a portion of Isaiah 61 which makes an everlasting covenant with these people and they are contrasted with Gentiles and it addresses Zion specifically
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”
4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
And they shall repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.
5 Strangers shall stand and feed your flocks,
And the sons of the foreigner
Shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But you shall be named the priests of the LORD,
They shall call you the servants of our God.
You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles,
And in their glory you shall boast.
7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor,
And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion.
Therefore in their land they shall possess double;
Everlasting joy shall be theirs.
8 “For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery for burnt offering;
I will direct their work in truth,
And will make with them an everlasting covenant.
9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed.”
10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD,
My soul shall be joyful in my God;
For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,
As a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments,
And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
11 For as the earth brings forth its bud,
As the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth,
So the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Hi Rev is not going to contradict the other passages of scripture and there are hundred that show a before and after picture with life continuing after the 2nd coming. I look at Luke one which speaks of the time Jesus takes the throne of David and his kingdom covers the earth and has no end. The prophecy by teh Holy Spirit by Zacharias says Jesus will keep the oaths, promises, prophecies and covenants to the fathers that Israel would be delivered from their enemies and from that point on they will worship and serve the LORD in holiness and without fear all the days of their lives.

If you look at every prophecy that shows this deliverance it makes a strong case for futurism. In Zech 14 the day the LORD is proclaimed king over all the earth Jerusalem is being overrun and 1/2 the city is taken captive and that is when the LORD comes and slays the invaders and in that day the Mount of Olives splits in two and forms a new valley a river that will flow one branch east. It is going to flow year round and from that point on the nations which are left must now come to Jerusalem and Keep the feast of Tabernacles and worship the king or they will get no rain. This river is promised in Ezekiel to heal the dead sea and it becomes a prosperous fishing area and at this same time time the 12 tribes receive their inheritance in the promised land.

In focus of what Luke 1 says fro this time on no fear and the key verse in Zech 14 is in that day they will say the LORD is one. This is Jesus having come an they are confessing He is LORD. I can show hundreds of verses that all show the same before and after picture when the kingdom comes and life continues on earth after it is established.

I have many close family and friends in your camp and see merit in the idea of spiritual Israel but I like Ezekiel and Hosea the day where not my people are called sons of the living God. Great is the day of Jezreel which is where it was said not my people and is the place where they are restored. Jezreel is another name for the valley of Megido or Armageddon.

Zechariah 14 and Ezekiel 40-47 are not even speaking about the second coming. They are already long-fulfilled. If that is your rebuttal then it is weak.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Hi John in Rev was told to write the things which he saw chapter one and the things that are chapters 2 and 3 and the things that will take place after this. Now in the category of things still to take place are the angels proclaiming the kingdoms of God have become the kingdoms of our LORD and His Christ and He shall rule forever and ever.

I agree Jesus will take the throne of David as that is obvious the when is still future.
The prophecy in Isaiah 9
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

In my view of world history the world has not been established with judgment and justice from the time Jesus takes the throne. Now Jesus is to rule the nations with a rod of iron and they shall beat their swords into plowshare and there spears into pruning hooks and shall learn war no more.

No one is bring swords and spears to the new Jerusalem. These before and after pictures support the literal case. Zech 9 on this theme of peace established
“Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your King is coming to you;
He is just and having salvation,
Lowly and riding on a donkey,
A colt, the foal of a donkey.
10 I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim
And the horse from Jerusalem;
The battle bow shall be cut off.
He shall speak peace to the nations;
His dominion shall be ‘from sea to sea,
And from the River to the ends of the earth.

Now dominion is taking total control and not reigning by proxy. In Zech 14 the LORD is king life continues after He has come this day has not happened and from this day on the millennium starts and the world peace is established. Luke one shows that these promises are all kept.

When is the day of vengeance of our God as in Isaiah 61? If you read this chapter it cannot be 70 AD because Zion is saved and lifter up not destroyed. This sure matches the Armageddon Zech 14 notion that this is future.

Here is a portion of Isaiah 61 which makes an everlasting covenant with these people and they are contrasted with Gentiles and it addresses Zion specifically
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”
4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
And they shall repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.
5 Strangers shall stand and feed your flocks,
And the sons of the foreigner
Shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But you shall be named the priests of the LORD,
They shall call you the servants of our God.
You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles,
And in their glory you shall boast.
7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor,
And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion.
Therefore in their land they shall possess double;
Everlasting joy shall be theirs.
8 “For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery for burnt offering;
I will direct their work in truth,
And will make with them an everlasting covenant.
9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed.”
10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD,
My soul shall be joyful in my God;
For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,
As a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments,
And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
11 For as the earth brings forth its bud,
As the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth,
So the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

Can you actually address the Op? This is a diversion.
 
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Petros2015

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When the kingdom of darkness is described it is shown to be currently spiritually restrained and curtailed in regard to their power and influence.

Given the last 2,000 years of human history, I find that kind of terrifying.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Given the last 2,000 years of human history, I find that kind of terrifying.

Do you see any change happening in regard to enlightenment between the Old Testament and the New Testament?
 
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Petros2015

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Do you see any change happening in regard to enlightenment between the Old Testament and the New Testament?

Yes, quite a lot over time.
I wouldn't want to re-run human history without Christ
However, still a lot of atrocities.
I'm wondering what "unrestrained" looks like if "restrained" gets as bad as Nazi Germany.
I'm guessing it doesn't last too long before it tears itself to pieces though
 
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sovereigngrace

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Yes, quite a lot over time.
I wouldn't want to re-run human history without Christ
However, still a lot of atrocities.
I'm wondering what "unrestrained" looks like if "restrained" gets as bad as Nazi Germany.
I'm guessing it doesn't last too long before it tears itself to pieces though

But Revelation 20 simply relates the binding or curtailment of Satan to the removal of the deception that blinded the Gentiles before Christ's first resurrection. That is it! I do not believe one will ever fully understand Revelation 20 until to see the seismic spiritual change that occurred to the Gentiles since and through the earthly ministry of Christ. You do not seem to see (or you choose to ignore in order to sustain your eschatological position) the ginormous contrast between the spiritual standing of the Gentiles in the OT and the NT.

The Scriptures often depict the Gentiles in the Old Testament as deceived, without hope, blinded, ignorant and darkened. The Bible repeatedly describes the Gentiles in the New Testament as enlightened. That does not suggest that all were blind in the Old Testament or that all will be enlightened in the New Testament. These are simply sweeping generalities establishing the Gospel climate in either era. The widespread light didn’t shine on the nations throughout the Old Testament. Today, it does exist as the Gospel is preached throughout the nations. Before the cross, the Gospel was largely withheld from the nations. After the cross, the Gospel spread like wildfire throughout the globe. Like Israel in the Old Testament, the Gentiles in the New Testament have now had the light shone on them through the great commission.

Ephesians 4:18-20 tells us that those who enjoy sin have their: “understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being
past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

This passage describes the condition of a person that is outside of Christ. This should not be the lot of the Christian. The Christian operates in freedom, enlightenment and knowledge.

Imprisonment, blindness, darkness and ignorance are always tied together in Scripture. When the Gentiles were spoken of in the Old Testament it was always in the context of this sorry reality. Satan rules the nations. Yahweh ruled Israel/Judah.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Hi as a futurist I see all the events of Rev to 20 occur before the millennium is to begin and you have them coming at the end of the millennium. The scriptures show that Armageddon is the end of the tribulation and the beginning of the millennium. After the 1000 years Satan is loosed and gathers an army to surround the city and fire comes down from heaven and that is it. Basic reading comprehension has these events clearly separated by the 1000 years.

But, forgetting your doctrine for a moment, do you see the correlation I propose above?
 
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DavidPT

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It's up to you, but how about you address the concept that all of our spiritual enemies (Satan, his angels and the beast) would be bound and restrained at the same time rather than just one at a time.

I believe it makes no sense to believe that just the beast would be bound and restrained while Satan and his angels are not. You and I agree that the beast was in the pit as of the time of the writing of Revelation (based on Rev 17:8), but you think Satan, and I assume his angels as well, were not. Why exactly would only the beast be bound in the pit while Satan and his angels are not? Please explain that.

As I've pointed out to you before, Revelation 13 gives the strong impression that Satan and the beast work hand in hand and depend on each other, so anything that affects one will affect the other. And anything that affects Satan will affect his angels as well. I think that goes without saying since he is clearly their leader.

So, I'd like to know why and how the beast could be bound in the pit while Satan, and presumably his angels, are not. If Satan can do all his dirty work unrestrained even while the beast is in the pit, then what is the point of Satan working with the beast as described in Revelation 13? Why would Satan bother with the beast if he can do it all himself (or if he and his angels can do it all themselves)? It seems that you think Satan doesn't actually have any use for the beast because he can do the same things with or without the beast (and with or without the second beast/false prophet for that matter).


As to some of satan's angels, some of them would be bound in the pit while some of them would not be. That assuming that the pit and hell in 2 Peter 2:4 are referring to the same place. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. The ones that would be would be the ones directly involved with the following. All of them were not directly involved with the following though, otherwise there would be no unclean spirits to cast out of anyone, they would all be imprisoned in the same place the others per the following are.


2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;


The angels that sinned have to do with the events recorded in verse 5 and 6 apparently, and have nothing to do with when satan initially fell. satan had already fallen when these angels sinned. satan is not among the ones meant in verse 4, but if he was, nothing in these 3 verses are involving any events 2000 years ago, though. When is it that you think God initially cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment? What exactly does being cast down to hell mean to you? Do you believe in a literal place called hell? If yes, shouldn't that mean they were cast down to this literal place? What else could it mean?

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

It seems to me that the angels meant here are the same ones meant in 2 Peter 2:4, and that they are being confined until the judgment of the great day. What judgment of the great day? How about the following, which BTW is not even meaning the GWTJ.

Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.


It's still early in the day for me. I barely had enough focus to submit this. This doesn't even answer some of what you requested and I realize that. Maybe I will add to this post later, in another post of course.
 
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As to some of satan's angels, some of them would be bound in the pit while some of them would not be. That assuming that the pit and hell in 2 Peter 2:4 are referring to the same place. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. The ones that would be would be the ones directly involved with the following. All of them were not directly involved with the following though, otherwise there would be no unclean spirits to cast out of anyone, they would all be imprisoned in the same place the others per the following are.


2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;


The angels that sinned have to do with the events recorded in verse 5 and 6 apparently, and have nothing to do with when satan initially fell. satan had already fallen when these angels sinned. satan is not among the ones meant in verse 5, but if he was, nothing in these 3 verses are involving any events 2000 years ago, though. When is it that you think God initially cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment? What exactly does being cast down to hell mean to you? Do you believe in a literal place called hell? If yes, shouldn't that mean they were cast down to this literal place? What else could it mean?

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

It seems to me that the angels meant here are the same ones meant in 2 Peter 2:4, and that they are being confined until the judgment of the great day. What judgment of the great day? How about the following, which BTW is not even meaning the GWTJ.

Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.


It's still early in the day for me. I barely had enough focus to submit this. This doesn't even answer some of what you requested and I realize that. Maybe I will add to this post later, in another post of course.

But where does it say that in 2 Peter 2:5-6? It seems like you are forcing your opinion into the inspired text to support your theology? You have the fate of the kingdom of darkness, the judgment upon them and their final doom all over the place.

My initial supposition stands unchallenged at the moment. I put it to you: it is compelling!
 
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