One Reason to Reject Amill Doctrine

Just The Facts · Sep 16, 2021

Hi Jeff

jeffweedaman said:
Glad you believe we receive our inheritance at his coming. This is what we Amills have been saying all along.
I dont think you realize it but Welcome to the Amill camp.

Well no I am not Amill because I do not believe Jesus has returned therefore we only have a shadow of what is to come at his return.

So you believe Jesus has returned in all his glory with the angels?

Timtofly · Sep 16, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Yes, but Premil wrongly portrays a millennium of unparalleled peace and submission to Jesus where the lion and the lamb finally rest together in unity and love and where the glorified saints enjoy final bliss and then bam the slaughter trucks pull up to take these same sheep to Jerusalem for slaughter. How cruel and pointless! Then after a thousand literal years of supposed perfect peace and harmony where Jesus rules with a rod of iron, the millennial inheritors turn en-masse to Satan in their billions as the sand of the sea. It is this false picture and misplacement of Revelation 20 that Premil portrays that doesn't add up.

It is the Word of God. Why make it out to be a slander towards God? That is your angle of reasoning. No one invented these verses and placed them into Revelation, claiming John did not actually write them.

sovereigngrace · Sep 16, 2021

Timtofly said:
It is the Word of God. Why make it out to be a slander towards God? That is your angle of reasoning. No one invented these verses and placed them into Revelation, claiming John did not actually write them.

Where is this in the Word of God? It is not enough for you to keep presenting your opinions as facts.

jeffweedaman · Sep 16, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Hi Jeff

Well no I am not Amill because I do not believe Jesus has returned therefore we only have a shadow of what is to come at his return.

So you believe Jesus has returned in all his glory with the angels?

I do not believe Jesus has returned either. I have told you this before.
When he does come we shall receive the full reward. See rev 22 in my last post.
se also Matt 25

Just The Facts · Sep 16, 2021

Hi Sov

sovereigngrace said:
Please give me any quote from Barnabas and Clement that explicitly described a future 1000 years as Premils teach?

Please give me any quote from Barnabas and Clement that explicitly described Jesus on a future millennial earth as Premils teach?

Please give me any quote from Barnabas and Clement that taught the continuation of the bondage of corruption on a future millennial earth as Premils teach?

Please give me any quote from Barnabas and Clement that taught the wicked or mortals inheriting a future millennial earth as Premils teach?

Please give me any quote of Barnabas and Clement showing mortal humans interreacting with glorified saints on a future millennial earth as Premils teach?

Please give me any quote of Barnabas and Clement showing the continuation of dying and crying on a future millennial earth as Premils teach?

Please give me any quote of Barnabas and Clement teaching Satan will be bound at the second coming, released 1000 years after the second coming and instigate an uprising of billions of millennial inhabitants as Premils teach?

Please give me any quote of Barnabas and Clement showing the elevation of natural Israel to their old covenant place of favour over all other nations, the restoring of Israel back to her ancient borders, the return of the whole old covenant arrangement, the rebuilding of a brick temple in earthly Jerusalem, the restarting of the mass slaughter of innocent animals on the new earth, the restoration of the ancient old covenant priesthood again in a future millennium?

Please give me any quote of Barnabas and Clement teaching the continuation of marriage and procreation on a future millennial earth as Premils teach?

First of not all Premills believe much this that you have posted here I certainly do not.

Also one can not prove a negative it is impossible you seem a smart person I am sure you know this. I can easily phrase 10 points that you could never prove. However I do not want to do such a petty thing when I know it can not be shown. One can not show what is not said directly Just like you can not show me a single place where they said 1,000 years is an imaginary time frame that does not really exist. We are limited to what they did say and must take our understanding from that.

Now I have shown that Both of these Fathers were premill by what they have said and I will do it one last time for you but first I wish to ask you one simple question because not all amills believe the same thing just like not all premills believe the same thing.

When do you believe the Kingdom of God was set up ie: when did the non specific 1,000 years begin? At which event ie: Jesus Baptisim by John, His Transfiguration, his death, his ressurection some other event?

sovereigngrace · Sep 16, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Hi Sov

First of not all Premills believe much this that you have posted here I certainly do not.

Also one can not prove a negative it is impossible you seem a smart person I am sure you know this. I can easily phrase 10 points that you could never prove. However I do not want to do such a petty thing when I know it can not be shown. One can not show what is not said directly Just like you can not show me a single place where they said 1,000 years is an imaginarytime frame that does not really exist.

Now I have shown that Both of these Fathers were premill by what they have said and I will do it one last time for you but first I wish to ask you one simple question because not all amills believe the same thing just like not all premills believe the same thing.

When do you believe the Kingdom of God was set up ie: when did the non specific 1,000 years begin? At which event ie: Jesus Baptisim by John, His Transfiguration, his death, his ressurection some other event?

You just admitted you have nothing. It is impossible for you to prove something that does not exist. So, I hope you will stop claiming these ECFs as Premils. Because they are not! I therefore rest my case!

Just The Facts · Sep 16, 2021

Just The Facts · Sep 16, 2021

Hi Sov

sovereigngrace said:
You just admitted you have nothing

Wow what a twisting of what I said, You do realise people can see what you are doing right?

Why should I try and prove words you put in my mouth. I do not believe 90% of the things you said premill believe.

I did say I would prove from the words they did leave us that they taught Premill. I only asked you clarify your position on one single point. Why do you avoid the simple question what are you afraid of.

sovereigngrace · Sep 16, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Hi Sov

Wow what a twisting of what I said, You do realise people can see what you are doing right?

Why should I try and prove words you put in my mouth. I do not believe 905 of the things you said premill believe.

I did say I would prove from the words they did leave us that they taught Premill. I only asked you clarify your position on one single point. Why do you avoid the simple question what are you afraid of.

Present your evidence if you have it. I predicted you had nothing as i know from deep research it does not exist. You admitted that, arguing that you cannot prove that which does not exist.

Address each of these questions if you have the evidence. The reality is these two ECFs were actually Amils.

DavidPT · Sep 16, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Please give me any quote of Barnabas and Clement teaching the continuation of marriage and procreation on a future millennial earth as Premils teach?

Even though I indicated I was wanting to put the brakes on this discussion concerning ECFs, why are you painting this with a broadbrush, as if all Premils believe those things to be the case? I don't believe those things to be true during the millennium. I simply see billions being spared what is the fate of some, meaning Zechariah 14:12. Thus the ones remaining, meaning those recorded in Zechariah 14:16, their numbers are as the sand of the seas. And since Adam as a mortal almost lived an entire thousand years in this age alone, it is not unreasonable to think that any mortals could live an entire thousand years and then some after Christ has returned. I don't even agree with other Premils that there will be death during the thousand years. Death doesn't come until after the thousand years. That's what the text indicates--Revelation 20:9.

sovereigngrace · Sep 16, 2021

DavidPT said:
Even though I indicated I was wanting to put the brakes on this discussion concerning ECFs, why are you painting this with a broadbrush, as if all Premils believe those things to be the case? I don't believe those things to be true during the millennium. I simply see billions being spared what is the fate of some, meaning Zechariah 14:12. Thus the ones remaining, meaning those recorded in Zechariah 14:16, their numbers are as the sand of the seas. And since Adam as a mortal almost lived an entire thousand years in this age alone, it is not unreasonable to think that any mortals could live an entire thousand years and then some after Christ has returned. I don't even agree with other Premils that there will be death during the thousand years. Death doesn't come until after the thousand years. That's what the text indicates--Revelation 20:9.

This is news to me. Which of these 9 do Premils not believe?

keras · Sep 16, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Wow what a twisting of what I said, You do realise people can see what you are doing right?

I see it and I am astounded that that people can even promote that we are in the Millennium now. That idea is wakadoodle and is disproven by a simple reality check of the world as it actually is now.

Whether any of the theories people have about what will soon happen, are right or not; should not be a reason for any of us to make wild assertions or nasty accusations.
Just be assured that there is coming major changes to the world and we Christians must stand firm in our faith thru it all.

sovereigngrace · Sep 16, 2021

keras said:
I see it and I am astounded that that people can even promote that we are in the Millennium now. That idea is wakadoodle and is disproven by a simple reality check of the world as it actually is now.

Whether any of the theories people have about what will soon happen, are right or not; should not be a reason for any of us to make wild assertions or nasty accusations.
Just be assured that there is coming major changes to the world and we Christians must stand firm in our faith thru it all.

It is your understanding of 1 passage in the most symbolic location in Scripture that is mistaken and is causing you to portray the millennium as something it is not. Revelation 20 is simply telling us what other Scripture is telling us that the Gentiles are no longer deluded and ignorant since the first resurrection. The Gospel light is shining throughout the world. The deception is gone. The Gentiles are without excuse.

The age of Aquarius you portray doesn't exist as your millennium is overrun by satanists.

Just The Facts · Sep 16, 2021

Hello

sovereigngrace said:
Address each of these questions if you have the evidence.

First off stop twisting or selectively picking what I said toi fit your twisted narative. I said very plainly in both post that I could show they were both premill and that I have already done it many times in this thread.

I dealt with one passage from Clement in post #40 another in post #128 Both clearly shows he did not teach the kingdom had come. He taught that the kingdom and the inheritance was still to come in his day. So No Millenial Kingdom already in place in heaven as you and other Amills try and push that he taught. I directly answered this exact same call of yours that you now say I am avoiding. Look in post #149 and #176 with regard to Barnabas. But now you wish to play the here we go round the Mulberry Bush game again. Go look for yourself I grow tired of your childish games

You have created your own set of beliefs for Premill and then said prove to me these false beliefs I have created are correct. Your tacticts may fool a small child but not anyone with a brian who can read the plain words of God.

I do not believe 90% of what you said premill believe why should I try and prove what I do not believe.

Amills believe God created life on another planet. Prove to me God created human life on another planet? See I can write down a set of beliefs for amill that you do not believe and ask you to prove it to me too. However it really only proves I am an idiot for trying such a child like manover in a debate with reasonable people.

You said this in post #57 That is because it is a figurative term. A thousand years is simply a simile for a long period of time.

Show me one place were either of these Fathers said that the 1,000 years in not a specific anmount of time. Just one place.

I have already shown you and others many times post #40 #128 #149 #176 in this thread that Both these Fathers believed that the words of Daniel and Revelation were yet unfilled and the Kingdom and Inheritance was yet to come in the future you want to read it go back and look at my posts and you will find it.

Spiritual Jew · Sep 16, 2021

Jamdoc said:
The scripture from the gospels is not even relevant to the talk of whether or not Satan is bound and unable to deceive the nations anymore, because you yourself say that it was at the cross, and these events took place before the cross, and yes, demons are subject to the authority of God. That's true whether they are bound or not.

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

This says He triumphed over demons by way of His death on the cross. But, you say that was already done before His death on the cross? If so, then what do you think this passage is saying?

jeffweedaman · Sep 16, 2021

keras said:
They will rebel before Jesus Returns.
They will gather at Armageddon, where they will be destroyed. Rev 16:12-18

Right.
They do not rebel once Jesus comes to receive his own to himself do they.

So where do the ungodly rebels come from at the end of your proposed millennium if you believe the millennium has no wicked people in it?

Spiritual Jew · Sep 16, 2021

Douggg said:
Satan is not in chains.

1Peter5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Not literally, of course. And, of course, Amils do not claim that he is literally in chains. So, to prove that he is not literally in chains does nothing to disprove Amil.

By the way, scripture says that all fallen angels are in chains, so that would include Satan.

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

All of the fallen angels, including Satan, "kept not their first estate", so that means they all, including Satan, are "reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day". Clearly, this does not mean they are literally chained and unable to do anything. It's figurative language to describe the certainty of their ultimate fate on judgment day.

Spiritual Jew · Sep 16, 2021

jeffweedaman said:
You still didnt address my question. Who will be alive at that time , as according to a previous post of yours no ungodly people will enter your millennium. Who is left to deceive.??

I've asked him about this before and he said he believes that the martyrs mentioned in Revelation 20:4 will be resurrected with mortal bodies and they will be the ones to populate the earth at that time. It's one of his private interpretations that he has all to himself. The problem with his interpretation, obviously, is that scripture NEVER teaches that anyone will be resurrected with a mortal body in the future.

jeffweedaman · Sep 16, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
I've asked him about this before and he said he believes that the martyrs mentioned in Revelation 20:4 will be resurrected with mortal bodies and they will be the ones to populate the earth at that time. It's one of his private interpretations that he has all to himself. The problem with his interpretation, obviously, is that scripture NEVER teaches that anyone will be resurrected with a mortal body in the future.

Thanks Eric.
Scripture teaches we will be like him for we shall see him as he is.

Romans 6:5
For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

Philippians 3:21
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our lowly condition into conformity with His glorious body, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Spiritual Jew · Sep 16, 2021

Douggg said:
You are misunderstanding that passage. It is Jesus who personally overcame the world, the flesh, the devil, the pride of life - for our sake.

We as Christians still battle those things, which is what Ephesian 6 is about.

Are you saying we can't overcome those things? If so, what was John talking about here then:

1 John 5:3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

And what was Jesus talking about here:

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 2:11 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

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