Did Jesus save us from God?

Clare73 said:

Indeed it does. . ."teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thorougly equipped (perfected) for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17.)

That the Scriptures are "God-breathed" (2 Timothy 3:16) does not indicate to you their truth and authority?

And God bless the Catholic clergy, they have preserved western orthodox Christianity and sound spiritual thinking for millennia (with some important exceptions).

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Thank you for the correction. I was however thinking that some scripture may as in OT be of man. Ie, israel boasting of victories in war. In the name of a loving G-d????
In Love
Jay Sea

Yes and no. The consequence for sin is death, because sin is that serious. God cannot tolerate sin, in any way because it is against His very nature to tolerate sin. But God is just, and so He recognized that there is a difference between sin committed in ignorance and a deliberate choice of evil. And so God created a plan that involved the law to bring consciousness of sin and bring sin to the most sinful point it could possibly be, and He created an opportunity for those who engaged in sin because they did not realize the seriousness of it to repent and be healed of the damage caused by sin. It is God's desire that all would choose to turn and repent so that He can freely restore us and train us in righteousness, but those who refuse and instead choose to persist in their sin with full knowledge will be treated according to their sin. So Jesus saves us from the wrath of God against sin, which would have been directed against us.

Clare73 said:

My source is the meaning of the words "wrath" and "righteousness" from the Greek dictionary, where they are not the same thing.

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that's not a source. the argument is not about proving they are different words.

DamianWarS said:

that's not a source. the argument is not about proving they are different words.

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It is when you claim wrath is restoration to righteousness.

See yours following:

DamianWarS said:

salvation is from his wrath but the purpose of his salvation is not so we can stand on a rock and say we are saved, the purpose is restored relationship with God so salvation itself is a product to something greater not the goal. Sin puts us on the path of his wrath... and all have sinned so all are on that path, Christ removes us from that path.

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I think of God's wrath like an intense all-consuming fire and us as a scrap of paper. no matter how pristine that paper is or how tainted it is it's going to burn up just the same and the paper doesn't stand a chance. But Christ transforms us so that the consuming fire is no longer something that will harm destroy or cause death but rather something that will heal, restore and cause life. if we are a scrap of paper we should fear this wrath, if we are a flame ourselves we would rejoice in this wrath.

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The wrath of God is the anger, fury, fiercenesss (wrath = Gr: orge) of his righteous judgment (Romans 2:6-9) on the Great Day (Jude 6), when mankind will have to give an account for every word they have spoken (Matthew 12:36).

Where do we find in the NT that God's wrath is transforming rather than condemnation at the Judgment?

Clare73 said:

It is when you claim wrath is restoration to righteousness.

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wrath is not righteousness. God's wrath is righteousness.

Clare73 said:

God's wrath is not restosration to righteousness as you claim.

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DamianWarS said:

wrath is not righteousness. God's wrath is righteousness.

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DamianWarS said:

I think of God's wrath like an intense all-consuming fire and us as a scrap of paper. no matter how pristine that paper is or how tainted it is it's going to burn up just the same and the paper doesn't stand a chance. But Christ transforms us so that the consuming fire is no longer something that will harm destroy or cause death but rather something that will heal, restore and cause life.

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MMXX said:

"Did Jesus save us from God?" seems to be a common question/saying among those who believe in universal salvation.

But Romans 5:9 seems to indicate that's exactly what happened:

"Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him"

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Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Clare73 said:

The wrath of God is the anger, fury, fiercenesss (wrath = Gr: orge) of his righteous judgment (Romans 2:6-9) on the Great Day (Jude 6), when mankind will have to give an account for every word they have spoken (Matthew 12:36).

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Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

argos = a (as a negative particle) and ergon; inactive, i.e. unemployed; (by implication) lazy, useless:--barren, idle, slow.
ergon = from a primary (but obsolete) ergo (to work):--deed, doing, labour, work.

Matthew 25:29-30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:10-12 And the Disciples came, and said unto Him, Why speakest Thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but to them it is not given.
John 8:31-32 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in My word, [then] are ye My Disciples indeed, and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

It all comes down to "Disciples".
___________________________
This is the Gospel of the Kingdom.

Ligurian said:

Ligurian

Matthew 24:14 Gospel of the Kingdom

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Contrary to dispensational methodology of multiplying things that are the same, in this case
14 gospels:

the gospel of the kingdom (Matthew, Mark),
gospel of the kingdom of heaven (Matthew),
good news (gospel) of the kingdom (Matthew),
gospel of the kingdom of God (Luke),
the gospel of Jesus Christ (Mark),
the gospel of God (Paul),
the gospel of God's grace (Paul),
the gospel of Christ (Paul),
Christ's gospel (Paul),
the gospel of our Lord (Paul),
the gospel of peace (Paul),
my gospel (Paul),
our gospel (Paul),
the gospel preached of me (Paul),
etc.

they are all one and the same gospel of Jesus Christ to the world.

Clare73 said:

they are all one and the same gospel of Jesus Christ to the world.

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Galatians 2:7-9 = two mission-fields, two stewardships, two different gospels.
Paul calls himself the apostle of the gentiles,
and taught what Jesus could not have taught: Christ crucified.

Galatians 3:5 VS John 14:15-17
The giving of the Holy Spirit is different,
therefore, so are the fruits.
Two different gospels, for two different people.

This is the Gospel of the Kingdom,
preached by Jesus,
to the lost sheep of the house of Israel:

Matthew 3:2 Matthew 4:17 Matthew 5:3 Matthew 5:10 Matthew 5:19 Matthew 5:20 Matthew 7:21 Matthew 8:11 Matthew 10:7 Matthew 11:11 Matthew 11:12 Matthew 13:11 Matthew 13:24 Matthew 13:31 Matthew 13:33 Matthew 13:44 Matthew 13:45 Matthew 13:47 Matthew 13:52 Matthew 16:19 Matthew 18:1 Matthew 18:3 Matthew 18:4 Matthew 18:23 Matthew 19:12 Matthew 19:14 Matthew 19:23 Matthew 20:1 Matthew 22:2 Matthew 23:13 Matthew 25:1 Matthew 25:14
Matthew 6:33 Matthew 12:28 Matthew 19:24 Matthew 21:31 Matthew 21:43
John 3:3 John 3:5
Matthew 4:23 Matthew 9:35 Matthew 11:5 Matthew 24:14 Matthew 26:13

1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh [is] as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever, and this is the word which by this Gospel is preached unto you. (Isaiah 40:3, John 1:23)
This Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven: Psalms 145:13, 2 Samuel 7:12, 1 Chronicles 22:10, Psalms 45:6-8, Isaiah 9:6-7, Daniel 2:44 And in the days of those kings the God of Heaven shall set up a Kingdom which shall never be destroyed: and His Kingdom shall not be left to another people, but it shall beat to pieces and grind to powder all other kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Born again by the word of God: John 14:15-17.
And this is the word which by this Gospel is preached unto you: 1 Peter 1:1.
__________________________
This is the Gospel of the Kingdom.

Ligurian said:

Galatians 2:7-9 = two mission-fields, two stewardships, two different gospels.
Paul calls himself the apostle of the gentiles,
and taught what Jesus could not have taught: Christ crucified.

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And why is that not the same gospel for the Jews?

Clare73 said:

the gospel of peace (Paul),

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"Love is patient, love is kind..."
Peace Book 1

Was Paul an Essene?

Ligurian said:

"Love is patient, love is kind..."
Peace Book 1

Was Paul an Essene?

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I give up. . .was he?

The "gospel of peace" is reconciliation (peace) with God through remittance of our sin by faith in the person and atoning sacrifice (blood--Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ, which cancels our debt and makes us right with God's justice; i.e., at peace, enmity removed.

Ligurian said:

Galatians 2:7-9 = two mission-fields, two stewardships, two different gospels.
Paul calls himself the apostle of the gentiles,
and taught what Jesus could not have taught: Christ crucified.

Galatians 3:5 VS John 14:15-17
The giving of the Holy Spirit is different,
therefore, so are the fruits.
Two different gospels, for two different people.

This is the Gospel of the Kingdom,
preached by Jesus,
to the lost sheep of the house of Israel:

Matthew 3:2 Matthew 4:17 Matthew 5:3 Matthew 5:10 Matthew 5:19 Matthew 5:20 Matthew 7:21 Matthew 8:11 Matthew 10:7 Matthew 11:11 Matthew 11:12 Matthew 13:11 Matthew 13:24 Matthew 13:31 Matthew 13:33 Matthew 13:44 Matthew 13:45 Matthew 13:47 Matthew 13:52 Matthew 16:19 Matthew 18:1 Matthew 18:3 Matthew 18:4 Matthew 18:23 Matthew 19:12 Matthew 19:14 Matthew 19:23 Matthew 20:1 Matthew 22:2 Matthew 23:13 Matthew 25:1 Matthew 25:14
Matthew 6:33 Matthew 12:28 Matthew 19:24 Matthew 21:31 Matthew 21:43
John 3:3 John 3:5
Matthew 4:23 Matthew 9:35 Matthew 11:5 Matthew 24:14 Matthew 26:13

1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh [is] as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever, and this is the word which by this Gospel is preached unto you. (Isaiah 40:3, John 1:23)
This Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven: Psalms 145:13, 2 Samuel 7:12, 1 Chronicles 22:10, Psalms 45:6-8, Isaiah 9:6-7, Daniel 2:44 And in the days of those kings the God of Heaven shall set up a Kingdom which shall never be destroyed: and His Kingdom shall not be left to another people, but it shall beat to pieces and grind to powder all other kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Born again by the word of God: John 14:15-17.
And this is the word which by this Gospel is preached unto you: 1 Peter 1:1.
__________________________
This is the Gospel of the Kingdom.

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Clare73 said:

And why is that not the same gospel for the Jews?

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We know what Jesus taught the circumcision. And we know that Jesus told the Eleven to teach the words that Jesus taught them, Matthew 28:18-30.

In fact, Jesus came to us as a witness for the Father...

John 18:37 To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world: that I should bear witness unto the truth.(John 17:17) Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness...

And Jesus gave us the Father's words, by which we will be judged:
John 12:44-50 and Deuteronomy 18:18-19.
___________________________
This is the Gospel of the Kingdom.

Ligurian said:

We know what Jesus taught the circumcision. And
we know that Jesus told the Eleven to teach the words that Jesus taught them, Matthew 28:18-30.

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We also know that Jesus taught them more after his resurrection (Luke 24:44-45), which teaching is not specifically recorded.

We also know that you nor anyone else knows all the words Jesus taught them.

In fact, Jesus came to us as a witness for the Father...

John 18:37 To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world: that I should bear witness unto the truth.(John 17:17) Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness...

And Jesus gave us the Father's words, by which we will be judged:
John 12:44-50 and Deuteronomy 18:18-19.

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And?

What's that got to do with two "different gospels," one of Paul and one of Peter?

MMXX said:

"Did Jesus save us from God?" seems to be a common question/saying among those who believe in universal salvation.

But Romans 5:9 seems to indicate that's exactly what happened:

"Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him"

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That’s the sole reason Jesus left heaven and came to earth with the mission of dying on a cross for our sins, to save us from Gods just wrath against sin.

Those who reject Jesus’ offer of saving them from the penalty of their sins, literally go to hell over Jesus’ dead body.

Clare73 said:

I give up. . .was he?

The "gospel of peace" is reconciliation (peace) with God through remittance of our sin by faith in the person and atoning sacrifice (blood--Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ, which cancels our debt and makes us right with God's justice; i.e., at peace, enmity removed.

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Know what I notice about Paul's gospel?... the sacrificial system where sinful man was trying to be cleansed by blood sacrifice. That's a heathen thing.

But here's what the Father says about that:

Isaiah 66:3 But the transgressor that sacrifices a calf to Me, is as he that kills a dog; and he that offers fine flour, as one that offers swine’s blood; he that gives frankincense for a memorial, is as a blasphemer. Yet they have chosen their own ways, and their soul has delighted in their abominations.LXX

Isaiah 43:24-26 Neither hast thou purchased for Me victims for silver, neither have I desired the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou didst stand before Me in thy sins, and in thine iniquities. 25 I, even I, am He that blots out thy transgressions for Mine own sake, and thy sins; and I will not remember them. 26 But do thou remember, and let us plead together: do thou first confess thy transgressions, that thou mayest be justified.LXX

Because there is no forgiveness without repentance.

Matthew 5:22-24 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Ligurian said:

We know what Jesus taught the circumcision. And we know that Jesus told the Eleven to teach the words that Jesus taught them, Matthew 28:18-30.

In fact, Jesus came to us as a witness for the Father...

John 18:37 To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world: that I should bear witness unto the truth.(John 17:17) Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness...

And Jesus gave us the Father's words, by which we will be judged:
John 12:44-50 and Deuteronomy 18:18-19.
___________________________
This is the Gospel of the Kingdom.

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John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me, but on Him that sent Me. 12:50 And I know that His Commandment is Life Everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.

Clare73 said:

We also know that Jesus taught them more after his resurrection (Luke 24:44-45), which teaching is not specifically recorded.

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I know that Luke isn't one of the Eleven Disciples from Galilee.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of Me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with Me from the beginning.

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;

Clare73 said:

God's wrath is not restoration to righteousness as you claim.

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That wasn't my claim

ViaCrucis said:

The Greek text does not contain "of God", but only

σωθησόμεθα δι᾽ αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ τῆς ὀργῆς

"we shall be saved through Him from wrath".

That this is God's wrath being spoken of is an interpretation of the text by translators, but the text does not explicitly say so.

Early interpreters, such as St. John Chrysostom, instead understood this to be God saving us from our wrath.

Thus a fuller context,

"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through him! For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." - Romans 5:9-11

What God has done is ended our enmity toward Him, He took us--hostile and rebellious sinners--and has reconciled us to Himself.

God didn't just save the ungodly and the sinner, which we most certainly are, He loves and saves His enemies. Were we the enemies of God because God Himself set Himself against us as our enemy? Hardly, rather we were God's enemies by our own hostility and viciousness toward God, hence the Apostle having said earlier, "There is no one who seeks after God" (Romans 3:11).

Jesus is not a peace offering to abate an angry god.
Jesus is God's peace to sinners, out of God's grace and love for us--that love which He has loved us since before the foundation of the world.

-CryptoLutheran

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Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 2:5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

Rom 2:6 He will render to each one according to his works:

Rom 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

Rom 2:8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Eph 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Rev 6:15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains,

Rev 6:16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, (Jesus)

Rev 6:17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

Rev 14:19 So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse's bridle, for 1,600 stadia.

Rev 19:15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.

Rev 19:16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.