THE UNSCRIPTURAL THEOLOGIES OF AMILLENNIALISM AND POSTMILLENNIALISM

Christian Gedge

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I don't get 3.5 years at the end of the Millennium. I was just showing commonality with a brother who is Amillennial. The 3.5 years at the end of this age is roughly synonymous with the rebellion of Satan at the end of the Millennium. Whether you believe in a literal Millennium or not, there is a season of Satanic rule at the end of the present period.
I misunderstood. My bad.

The Church has had Premill teaching from the beginning to the end of NT history. But the Church has been Amill for most of this period. So I don't make a big issue out of it. I'm Premill, but don't divide with brothers and sisters over the matter, although I'm quite willing to discuss it.
Yeah, I know you try not to be pugnacious. Me too, except ............

With regard to your claim that unbelievers will hear and understand the Gospel in the Millennium, I think it would be no different than it is in the present age. The Gospel is preached and yet in many former Christian countries where that Gospel has been preached unbelief has continued to survive and thrive.

Oh no, not another thousand years of the same! I think I'm about to lose my sanctification! :holy:
 
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RandyPNW

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Really?

Surely the Jerusalem Premils portray in their alleged future millennium is altogether different to the one depicted in Zechariah 14:2 that is being attacked, “the houses rifled,” and “the women ravished”?

How can women in the millennium be "ravished" (or raped) when no one in Jerusalem is even mortal anymore (Zechariah 14:2)?

Zechariah 14:2-3, tells us that the result of the attack of the nations against Jerusalem is that “half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.” Surely this contradicts the whole Premillennial portrayal of Jerusalem during the millennium? This surely runs contrary to the perfect pristine peaceful Jerusalem Premils like to present in their literature, where Israel is exalted to a racially privileged position for 1,000 years?

How then can Jerusalem prosper when half of its population are dead and the other half are prisoners restrained by chains? I thought this was a glorious time for the city?

Apparently there are different Premill positions on Zech 14? I for one believe Zech 14 is fulfilled in the present age, and not in the Millennium.
 
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RandyPNW

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Oh! So, this is not part of your "day of the Lord" in verse 1? How convenient!

This is not a matter of convenience. This is an honest view, and based solidly on how the Bible uses the phrase "day of the Lord." That Day can be anything from judgment to salvation to the Kingdom Age or the Coming of Christ.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Apparently there are different Premill positions on Zech 14? I for one believe Zech 14 is fulfilled in the present age, and not in the Millennium.

I agree. Tertullian also believed that.
 
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RandyPNW

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I used to be Premil, like many Amils here. Here was a real struggle of mine.

When is the bondage of corruption lifted according to Scripture? What is it connected with? How does Scripture depict the age to come?

Fair enough. You argue your position well. I on the other hand started out Amil, and ended up Premil--largely because the people I became associated with were all Premil. I didn't really study this out until much later.

I'm not arguing your points, but just explaining how I came to be convinced of Premil. It doesn't really matter that much, because the whole sense of a future Millennium has little to do with the present age. It's only value would be in providing hope that God would sort of wrap everything up in accord with all of His promises to Abraham.

It is an oddball age, fitting in between the present age and the eternal age of the Kingdom. I can't explain much about it because we're given nothing about it except that there are those promises God made to Abraham.

A literal Millennial Kingdom best fits the idea of fulfilling these promises to me. To go directly into a future eternal Kingdom, without the Millennial stage, would not allow for Israel to be fulfilled as a "nation."

Their fulfillment as a nation would have to been fulfilled in the OT era, which does not seem Scriptural to me. Or, Israel would have to be fulfilled not as a "nation" in the future, in the eternal age of immortality, when ethnic and gender distinctions likely will not exist any longer.

How would you deal with this?
 
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RandyPNW

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I misunderstood. My bad.


Yeah, I know you try not to be pugnacious. Me too, except ............



Oh no, not another thousand years of the same! I think I'm about to lose my sanctification! :holy:

Hilarious! ;) Thanks brother!
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Apparently there are different Premill positions on Zech 14? I for one believe Zech 14 is fulfilled in the present age, and not in the Millennium.
That makes you the only premil to believe that as far as I know. I suppose maybe you're not the only one, but I've never come across any other premil who believes Zechariah 14 is fulfilled in the present age.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Fair enough. You argue your position well. I on the other hand started out Amil, and ended up Premil--largely because the people I became associated with were all Premil. I didn't really study this out until much later.
  1. But Premil is based upon the reading of one sole passage in the whole of Scripture, an interpretation that enjoys zero corroboration anywhere else in the Bible. What is more, it is located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. That should be enough to set off the warning bells.
  2. Everywhere else in the Bible shows us that the coming of the Lord is the end. It is the end of corruption, mortal man and the end of time.
  3. The Bible only recognizes a 2-age model, that of this evil age and the perfect age to come. Premil invents a 3rd age through their faulty understanding of this lone chapter.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I'm not arguing your points, but just explaining how I came to be convinced of Premil. It doesn't really matter that much, because the whole sense of a future Millennium has little to do with the present age. It's only value would be in providing hope that God would sort of wrap everything up in accord with all of His promises to Abraham.

It is an oddball age, fitting in between the present age and the eternal age of the Kingdom. I can't explain much about it because we're given nothing about it except that there are those promises God made to Abraham.

A literal Millennial Kingdom best fits the idea of fulfilling these promises to me. To go directly into a future eternal Kingdom, without the Millennial stage, would not allow for Israel to be fulfilled as a "nation."

Their fulfillment as a nation would have to been fulfilled in the OT era, which does not seem Scriptural to me. Or, Israel would have to be fulfilled not as a "nation" in the future, in the eternal age of immortality, when ethnic and gender distinctions likely will not exist any longer.

How would you deal with this?

The reason why most Premils have abandoned Premil and embraced Amil is their unhealthy focus on ethnic Israel and not Christ. The Premil focus is in error. The mistake most Christians make when analyzing the OT writers is that they wrongly get captivated with the physical Old Testament people instead of the New Testament people, the spiritual New Testament land, the physical Old Testament temple instead of the spiritual New Testament temple, the physical old covenant apparatus instead of the spiritual new covenant apparatus, the temporal old covenant sacrifices instead of the spiritual new covenant eternal sacrifice.

Old Testament Revelation

The Old Testament prophets looked through a glass darkly and described things in terms their listeners could understand. The audience of that day did not have the great wealth of knowledge and revelation we enjoy today through the appearance of Christ, the fulfilling of countless Old Testament prophecies and the completion of the written canon of Scripture. They had no great appreciation of the incarnation – how God would take on human form and make a one-off final payment for sin. The prophet's words were therefore covered in obscure language that may seem strange to the New Testament mind-set. Notwithstanding, we should consider: predicting the abolition of the Judaic sacrificial system would have been inconceivable in that day. It would have been like denying the faith or being a heretic.

Whilst the detail here is presented in terms of the law (when it was given), this doesn’t mean a return to the law; rather, the detail has new covenant realities today. The prophecy was not intended to be a scrupulously literal outline of the new economy, but rather a general overview of this new arrangement. When the Old Testament prophets described an improved economy, they described it in terms that made sense to the old covenant Israelites to whom they were writing. Thus, it is logical that a future state would be described in old covenant terms, even though these terms would not be an exact depiction of the approaching condition.

Premils take Old Testament Scripture that were prophetically written to the Old Testament saints through a glass darkly pertaining to the new covenant time and propel them into some imaginary future bipolar age of justice and injustice, deliverance and bondage, light and darkness, righteousness and unrighteousness, perfection and sin, glorification and corruption, sin and sinlessness, immortality and mortality, peace and harmony and war and terror. This concept is totally unknown to Scripture.

The difficulty Amils have with Premil is that it places a meaning on the Old Testament passages that do not fit with the consistence teaching of Scripture and which conflict with the fuller and clearer revelation of the New Testament. It seems like Premils take advantage of the vaguer and more obscured view that the prophets had and place a meaning on their predictions that were never intended by God or the prophet. That is why Premils seem more comfortable under the old covenant arrangement and are fixated with bringing it back again in the future. Amils pitch their tent in the New Testament, and let the clear and explicit New Testament explain the type and the shadow. They see Christ as the fulfillment of every single Old Testament hope.

Geerhardus Vos skillfully sums up the spiritualization of the Mosaic arrangement by Christ and the New Testament writers: “Eschatological revelation is presented in the language of the Mosaic institutions. The New Testament first transposes it into a new key. Here in the New Testament it is spiritualized. In the Old Testament it is expressed in terms of perfection of the forms of Israel’s theocracy. The holy city is center; offices, organizations, peace, abundance, etc. are there, but this all is to be eternalized in the Messianic era, and will be free of the vicissitudes of the present era. All this is the content of revelation.”

As Rev. Nicholas T. Batzig wrote in an online article Eternalizing the Old Testament: “Jesus takes all of the shadows, ordinances and promises of the Old Testament, fulfills them in His death and resurrection and then gives the spiritual and eternal substance of them to His people who believe in Him. If we would seek to understand how all things move into and out of Him, we must keep Him at the center of our hermeneutical process. He is the everlasting Son of God and establishes all the everlasting blessings of God for us who trust in Him.”

The New Testament interprets the Old Testament

To best understand the Old Testament prophets and their prophecies, it is both wise and smart to start with the fuller revelation and see how they were viewed and interpreted by Christ and the New Testament writers. We can then work back the way and let clear, explicit and fulfilment interpret the vague, shadow and symbolic, not the other way around. Most Bible students do the opposite. They start by speculating what they think the Old Testament prophet meant. False doctrine is often what results.

Whilst the Old Testament mentions end-times and the second coming, it is often written in veiled and incomplete detail, mixed and interspersed with ancient events and other historical detail. It is also presented in types and shadows.

With the first advent of Christ, God introduced a new religious arrangement that changed the format of God’s engagement with man, and also enlarged the geographical range of His grace. Israel lost its exclusive privileged place under the new economy. The theocratic system was dismantled. The old covenant ceremonial system was replaced with a better, stronger, broader, more glorious and longer-lasting covenant. Under the new covenant there was no difference placed between Jews and Gentiles. Both enjoy equal status through faith in Christ. The New Testament expanded the Gospel thrust to embrace all nations. The new covenant knew no ethnic, political or religious boundaries. It was a global trans-national scheme that targeted a fallen world.

A lot of Christians today overlook this reality and therefore have a bias and faulty perspective of natural Israel. They make the mistake of viewing physical Israel today through Old Testament glasses. They fail to see that the Old Testament dispensation has gone forever and the New Testament era has fully and wholly superseded it. The old system has been totally dismantled and abolished because it was only ever intended to be a temporary covenant with an expiration date. Its conclusion occurred when Christ died on the cross. We see that with the ripping of the curtain in the temple at the very moment Jesus breathed His last breath (Matthew 27:50-51, Mark 15:37-38 and Luke 23:45-46). It therefore has no further purpose for time and eternity.

Ignorance of New Testament truth leads many to a distorted and erroneous understanding of Old Testament truth. Ironically, and paradoxically, especially allowing for how they describe themselves, many Futurists choose to live in the past. They understand ethnic Israel today in an old covenant sense, rather than a new covenant context. It is as if the old covenant is still active and valid and the new covenant has yet to arrive. Futurists seem unable (or unwilling) to recognize the seismic shift that occurred through the introduction of the new covenant. When pressed, they continually run back to the Old Testament for some type of support for a favored place for national Israel, a return of the Jews to their ancient land boundaries, the reintroduction of the old covenant apparatus, including a rebuilt physical temple, animal blood sacrifices, and a restored Old Testament priesthood. They have to pitch their tent in the Hebrew Scriptures because they have absolutely no endorsement in the New Testament for their theological model.

Sensible and enlightened Bible scholars place greater emphasis on the New Testament because it is the fuller revelation and it is where we now reside. God’s truth has been a gradual progressive unfolding and unveiling of truth to mankind from the beginning. The change and advancement that came with the New Testament era did not jettison the old Hebrew promises but rather fulfilled them. The doctrinal light became a lot clearer with Christ’s appearance and vivid illumination of the whole dynamic between the Old and the New Testament and the first and second advents. Our Lord removed the existing vail, dispelled the religious mist and has shed much-needed light on God’s redemptive plan.

That is why theologians insist: “the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed; the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.” Steve Lehrer wisely advises: “read the old covenant Scriptures through the lens of the New Covenant Scriptures” (New Covenant Theology: Questions Answered). The New Testament is latent in the Old Testament, and the Old Testament is patent in the New Testament.

As Reformed Theologian Vern Poythress explains: “The significance of a type is not fully discernible until the time of fulfillment … In other words, one must compare later Scripture to earlier Scripture to understand everything” (Understanding Dispensationalists).

If the Bible student fails to grasp the whole inter-relationship between the Old and New Testament then surely, they are going be all over the place when it comes to quite a number of subjects in the Bible. But equally, it would be very difficult to comprehend the whole interconnection between the Old and New Testaments without understanding the actual relationship between Israel and the Church.

We have moved from natural Jerusalem in the Old Testament to the heavenly Jerusalem in the New Testament. Christ was always redirecting our eyes away from the natural to the spiritual, from the earthly to the heavenly, from the temporal to the eternal and from the visible to the invisible. Now that the shadow has been abolished, the fulfillment has superseded it.

The Pharisees and their followers had a mistaken hyper-literalist attitude to the Old Testament prophecies, which caused them to miss the spiritual nature of the kingdom that God intended. They anticipated a physical earthly temporal earthly Jewish kingdom instead of viewing the kingdom as spiritual, heavenly and eternal. The Pharisees looked for a Messiah who would set up a physical authoritarian reign over the whole earth. They looked for a restored kingdom in Israel that would rule over the Gentile nations with a rod of iron. I feel a lot of their confusion emanated from taking passages like this one hyper-literally, when they were in fact meant to be a spiritual picture of the change that would happen through the Gospel.

However, there is not one single teaching from Christ, Paul, Peter or any of the New Testament writers that remotely suggests the Old Testament land promises, ordinances or traditions lasted any longer than the cross. There is no instruction on the Jews being brought back to the land. Whilst they may be fixated with real estate none of the new covenant writers were. Amil stands with them and the eternal covenant, not an abolished one that is shown even today to be long-defunct.

The prophets were fixated with Christ (thee hope of Israel), redemption (deliverance from sin), His majestic kingdom (a spiritual edifice) and eternal glory (being delivered from every enemy - natural and spiritual). Messiah's appearance was the ongoing perpetual hope for every true Israelite (believing Israel). It was the Pharisees that were fixated with the land. They wanted to lord over the nations in a show of racial superiority. They were captivated with the natural, physical, earthly, visible and temporal whereas the elect were captivated with the supernatural, spiritual, heavenly, invisible and the eternal.
 
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DavidPT

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Oh! So, this is not part of your "day of the Lord" in verse 1? How convenient!


Do you disagree that Zechariah 14 involves the last days, keeping in mind that the last days began with the first coming?

Assuming you don't disagree, how many day of the Lord events do you see recorded in the NT? Just one, or more than one? IOW, everything recorded about the day of the Lord in the NT, are all those passages involving the same event or are some of them involving a different day of the Lord event? Where does the NT locate the day of Lord in time? Is it not in the end of this age after the trib of those days? Does not the DOTL involve the 2nd coming? In Zechariah 14, does it look like in verse 2 that the Lord has already come at that point? It is not even until verse 3 that the Lord takes action, therefore it is in verse 3 and 4 that the 2nd coming takes place, thus, that is where the DOTL mentioned in Zechariah 14:1 fits. Or are you instead going to argue, that even though Zechariah 14 involves the last days, the DOTL meant in verse 1 is not meaning any DOTL recorded in the NT but is meaning another DOTL only recorded in Zechariah 14? As if that is supposed to make some kind of sense.
 
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Do you disagree that Zechariah 14 involves the last days, keeping in mind that the last days began with the first coming?

Assuming you don't disagree, how many day of the Lord events do you see recorded in the NT? Just one, or more than one? IOW, everything recorded about the day of the Lord in the NT, are all those passages involving the same event or are some of them involving a different day of the Lord event? Where does the NT locate the day of Lord in time? Is it not in the end of this age after the trib of those days? Does not the DOTL involve the 2nd coming? In Zechariah 14, does it look like in verse 2 that the Lord has already come at that point? It is not even until verse 3 that the Lord takes action, therefore it is in verse 3 and 4 that the 2nd coming takes place, thus, that is where the DOTL mentioned in Zechariah 14:1 fits. Or are you instead going to argue, that even though Zechariah 14 involves the last days, the DOTL meant in verse 1 is not meaning any DOTL recorded in the NT but is meaning another DOTL only recorded in Zechariah 14? As if that is supposed to make some kind of sense.

It is hard to take Premil hermeneutics serious. There is no consistency with them. They just alter the text if it gets in the way of their beliefs.
 
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jgr

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To go directly into a future eternal Kingdom, without the Millennial stage, would not allow for Israel to be fulfilled as a "nation."

Paul begins Romans 9 with a heavy heart. The reason becomes evident in verse 27 where, quoting Isaiah 10:22, he acknowledges that only a remnant of Israel will be saved.

How then will Israel be saved as a nation? Shouldn't Paul be elated if such were true?
 
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RandyPNW

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Paul begins Romans 9 with a heavy heart. The reason becomes evident in verse 27 where, quoting Isaiah 10:22, he acknowledges that only a remnant of Israel will be saved.

How then will Israel be saved as a nation? Shouldn't Paul be elated if such were true?

I don't personally feel that Paul was happy with just a remnant being saved *for the time being.* He seems to express the hope that one day something better would happen for Israel, *after* the time when only a remnant of Israel is being saved.
 
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RandyPNW

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The reason why most Premils have abandoned Premil and embraced Amil is their unhealthy focus on ethnic Israel and not Christ. The Premil focus is in error. The mistake most Christians make when analyzing the OT writers is that they wrongly get captivated with the physical Old Testament people instead of the New Testament people, the spiritual New Testament land, the physical Old Testament temple instead of the spiritual New Testament temple, the physical old covenant apparatus instead of the spiritual new covenant apparatus, the temporal old covenant sacrifices instead of the spiritual new covenant eternal sacrifice.

I recall going over this material with you before, brother. And my answer is the same today as it was then. I don't place stock in the physical aspects of the Law, which later were misappropriated by the "elemental forces of the spiritual world," ie by self-effort.

Originally, all of these physical elements of the Law were intended to be put into use by spiritual means, being supervised by angels, and tolerated by God. They were a temporary form of restraint and atonement until final atonement and eternal righteousness could come, particularly in a form no longer requiring temporary atonement. The Law became just "love God and love your neighbor."

As I said before, the heretic Cerinthus painted a saucy portrait of the future Millennium because he was carnal and unspiritual. True acceptance of a physical Kingdom of God on a millennial earth has nothing to do with lasciviousness and self-indulgence.

However *some* Pretribbers take the Millennial Kingdom to be, I do not personally embrace any Dispensationalist sense of a return to the Law for the Jews. Nor do I focus on the Jews as the "Chosen Nation" any longer. God made Israel the prototype of His greater plan to save "many nations." The focus would no longer be on Israel as exalted above other nations, but rather, they would be equals among many nations. It's just that in the present age, Israel has not yet been a Christian nation! And I believe that must still happen!

If any emphasis is placed on Israel at all in the Millennium, it is on their restoration and on their vindication, against those who opposed their ultimate restoration. And this is because much of this prophecy comes from the OT Scriptures, when Israel was the exclusive reference point.

And so, most biblical prophecy concerned Israel, because it is slanted towards that particular dispensation, and not yet fully disclosing the NT dispensation. The day would come when Israel would not be the only nation serving God.

Not even during the writing of the NT Scriptures were there yet Christian nations. But it was prophesied, I believe, by Jesus to eventually come. And then the prophecy given to Abraham, that he would be father of *many nations,* would come to pass. And yet, Israel has to be part of that mix as well, as the "firstborn" nation of God, who in the present era, continues to fail!

I agree that the NT era is a more *spiritual* fulfillment in the physical sense, and that the OT Law was more of a typology of Christ, who had yet to come. And so, we don't differ there at all.

I do not, however, believe that we should spiritualize Israel to now mean the international Church in the NT era. Israel is a single nation. The Church is an international entity that belongs to Christ. The Church is viewed by many Christians today as non-national, as a collection of many individuals of many different ethnicities or nationalities. But I don't view it that way entirely.

In the present age, there have been not just Christian individuals, but also Christian nations--just as there was a nation of God in the OT era, namely Israel. So I view both nations and individuals as present in the Church in the present era, and also in the Millennium. This would solve the problem of bringing Israel into the community of nations who have become Christian before the age of eternity, when there likely will no longer be "nations" as such.

Brother, no offense, but if you're just going to copy and past material you've saved, so that I spend all my time reading long articles I've read before, I'm not interested. I'm interested in what you think *today,* in the *present conversation.* If not, then you're not really considering any of my arguments, but only answering them with pre-conceived arguments. It's like talking to a bot.

But please don't take offense. I like a lot of your theology, and do understand why you've changed from Premill to Postmill. And you're entitled, and I'll continue to embrace you as a brother. It's just at this point, I'm just sharing that many of your concerns about Premill beliefs *do not apply to me.* Your teaching seems more directly at a large bloc of people, when my own personal views cannot be viewed that way.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I recall going over this material with you before, brother. And my answer is the same today as it was then. I don't place stock in the physical aspects of the Law, which later were misappropriated by the "elemental forces of the spiritual world," ie by self-effort.

Originally, all of these physical elements of the Law were intended to be put into use by spiritual means, being supervised by angels, and tolerated by God. They were a temporary form of restraint and atonement until final atonement and eternal righteousness could come, particularly in a form no longer requiring temporary atonement. The Law became just "love God and love your neighbor."

As I said before, the heretic Cerinthus painted a saucy portrait of the future Millennium because he was carnal and unspiritual. True acceptance of a physical Kingdom of God on a millennial earth has nothing to do with lasciviousness and self-indulgence.

However *some* Pretribbers take the Millennial Kingdom to be, I do not personally embrace any Dispensationalist sense of a return to the Law for the Jews. Nor do I focus on the Jews as the "Chosen Nation" any longer. God made Israel the prototype of His greater plan to save "many nations." The focus would no longer be on Israel as exalted above other nations, but rather, they would be equals among many nations. It's just that in the present age, Israel has not yet been a Christian nation! And I believe that must still happen!

If any emphasis is placed on Israel at all in the Millennium, it is on their restoration and on their vindication, against those who opposed their ultimate restoration. And this is because much of this prophecy comes from the OT Scriptures, when Israel was the exclusive reference point.

And so, most biblical prophecy concerned Israel, because it is slanted towards that particular dispensation, and not yet fully disclosing the NT dispensation. The day would come when Israel would not be the only nation serving God.

Not even during the writing of the NT Scriptures were there yet Christian nations. But it was prophesied, I believe, by Jesus to eventually come. And then the prophecy given to Abraham, that he would be father of *many nations,* would come to pass. And yet, Israel has to be part of that mix as well, as the "firstborn" nation of God, who in the present era, continues to fail!

I agree that the NT era is a more *spiritual* fulfillment in the physical sense, and that the OT Law was more of a typology of Christ, who had yet to come. And so, we don't differ there at all.

I do not, however, believe that we should spiritualize Israel to now mean the international Church in the NT era. Israel is a single nation. The Church is an international entity that belongs to Christ. The Church is viewed by many Christians today as non-national, as a collection of many individuals of many different ethnicities or nationalities. But I don't view it that way entirely.

In the present age, there have been not just Christian individuals, but also Christian nations--just as there was a nation of God in the OT era, namely Israel. So I view both nations and individuals as present in the Church in the present era, and also in the Millennium. This would solve the problem of bringing Israel into the community of nations who have become Christian before the age of eternity, when there likely will no longer be "nations" as such.

Brother, no offense, but if you're just going to copy and past material you've saved, so that I spend all my time reading long articles I've read before, I'm not interested. I'm interested in what you think *today,* in the *present conversation.* If not, then you're not really considering any of my arguments, but only answering them with pre-conceived arguments. It's like talking to a bot.

But please don't take offense. I like a lot of your theology, and do understand why you've changed from Premill to Postmill. And you're entitled, and I'll continue to embrace you as a brother. It's just at this point, I'm just sharing that many of your concerns about Premill beliefs *do not apply to me.* Your teaching seems more directly at a large bloc of people, when my own personal views cannot be viewed that way.

Thanks for this. Do you have any response to my post on the bondage of corruption. I see this as a major weakness in Premil.
 
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I don't personally feel that Paul was happy with just a remnant being saved *for the time being.* He seems to express the hope that one day something better would happen for Israel, *after* the time when only a remnant of Israel is being saved.

I don't see any hope in Romans 9:1-3. Where do you see it?

There is assurance for the salvation of the remnant. But not for the entire nation.

Hence no elation.
 
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sovereigngrace

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The Millennial age is said, by us Premills, to still have mortal, sin-infected inhabitants on the earth, just as today. But we also say that Satan is removed, allowing the world to enjoy a measure of peace and fulfillment. So no--it is not a ruthless, wicked world as we have today!

Satan is released for only a brief moment at the end of the Millennium, and quickly his fire is exterminated. Rather, he is thrown into the fire!

Although I do respect the fact that Amil was basically the eschatology of the Church for 2 millennia, it remains true that, AFAIK, the Church started out with Premil convictions. The central reason for giving up on Premil was the failure of Israel to realize the promise of inheriting God's Kingdom, and the Church then became the focus in the NT age.

But as we near the end of this age, I'm supposing, Israel has come back into the news, and Premil suddenly looks very viable. So I don't get hostile towards Amil, but I do have my own convictions on the matter. I now have the opportunity to find God true to His word, with respect to Israel's place in His Kingdom.

Inasmuch as Israel, in the present age, is not interested, as a majority, in Christianity, it seems necessary to have a literal Millennium following the return of Christ. I'm not Dispensational, but I do agree with that school that Israel has a place, as a nation, in future prophecy.

What you say about the Kingdom being present is true in some respects. Jesus said he would take the Kingdom from Israel and give it to another nation, which I assume to be the Roman nation. That means the Kingdom was already present in the OT era, when Israel possessed the Kingdom, and will continue to be present in the NT era, since Christian nations now possess it.

But the Kingdom, as much as it may be present, remains not yet *here.* Jesus said his Kingdom is "near" in the present age, and not yet *here.* Certainly there is a future Kingdom, beyond what we don't yet have at present, because Jesus prayed, "Thy Kingdom come."

The ECFs were not mainly Premil but Amil. I am not sure where you are doing your research.

The rejection of Premil was based on the fact:
  • It is built of one passage located in the most symbolic setting in Scripture that enjoys no corroboration for all of its main tenets anywhere in Scripture.
  • Everywhere else in the Bible shows us that the coming of the Lord is the end. It is the end of incorruption, mortal man and the end of time.
  • The Bible only recognizes a 2-age model, that of this evil age and the perfect age to come. Premil invents a 3rd age through their faulty understanding of this lone chapter
You have yet to address these major points.

Your mistaken focus on Israel inhering the land rather than Christ is causing you to err in your eschatology. Christ is the central theme of both the OT and the NT. Do you truly believe ethnic Israel's return to Palestine is a biblical return with God's blessing. If you do then you are not grasping an old covenant return looks like. Israel has returned in utter rebellion. What is more: you are placing God's favor on a people who have carried God's wrath for 2000 years.

To suggest the Kingdom was taken from Israel and given to the Roman nation causes me to wonder if you ever were a convinced Amil. The kingdom is spiritual and can only be entered through the new birth. We are saved by grace not race. The Roman Empire was an enemy of Christ when Israel lost her theocratic favor and was the instrument Satan used to crucify our savior under the influence of Christ-rejecting Israel.
 
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Christian Gedge

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(Sorry, but PM rejected this due to size limit)

The ECFs were not mainly Premil but Amil. I am not sure where you are doing your research.

If you list them by name and date, under (I would suggest ) amill, premil, neo-amill, chilliast, and perhaps a column for abbreviated notes, I might be able to create a table for you to insert in your posts (and your book?) I would use it too, but with credit to your name.

Blessings, Chris
 
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sovereigngrace

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I do not, however, believe that we should spiritualize Israel to now mean the international Church in the NT era. Israel is a single nation. The Church is an international entity that belongs to Christ. The Church is viewed by many Christians today as non-national, as a collection of many individuals of many different ethnicities or nationalities. But I don't view it that way entirely.

In the present age, there have been not just Christian individuals, but also Christian nations--just as there was a nation of God in the OT era, namely Israel. So I view both nations and individuals as present in the Church in the present era, and also in the Millennium. This would solve the problem of bringing Israel into the community of nations who have become Christian before the age of eternity, when there likely will no longer be "nations" as such.

I totally disagree.

When the New Testament uses terms like “the children of Abraham, “Israel,” “Jews,” “the circumcision” and “Zion” (“Sion”) in a natural sense it is talking exclusively about the natural Hebrew descendants; when it uses them in a spiritual context it is referring solely of the elect of God regardless of ethnicity. It is speaking of God’s true people, the redeemed assembly of Jesus Christ – all those that have experienced salvation by simple faith. While Hebraic terms are used in the New Testament in a natural national sense, it is never in the sense of superiority, dominance or elitist status, it is rather normally in the sense of rebuke, renunciation and judgment. When they are used in a spiritual context they are always the focus of affection, favor and blessing.

Romans 4:9-12 reinforces the non-ethnic character of this covenant with man: “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”

We can categorically determine that the principal thrust of this promise was not directed toward a physical people through keeping the law or a set of religious rules or rituals but rather a spiritual people of faith. This covenant was made with a faithful believing people (irrespective of circumcision or uncircumcision) who were in a right standing with God. God’s chosen people (the elect) were (and always have been) a people of active saving faith.

While Paul is recognizing that Abraham is the father of the old covenant circumcised believers, he is also telling us that he is equally the father of the new covenant uncircumcised believers. He is primarily highlighting that “faith” is the key element here. It is the essential requirement for being a true child of Abraham, and experiencing the blessed favor of God. Paul does not dismiss the natural terms “the circumcised” and “the uncircumcised” or even dilute them in a physical sense, that would be confusing, he uses them to show that natural designations mean nothing today; only spiritual heritage (regardless of birthplace) is beneficial.

Either man is found in Christ, and are therefore heirs of God according to the promise, or else he belongs to the devil and is damned. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile; all who believe in Him are one. The Israel of God is not therefore restricted to the physical earthly nation of Israel or any other physical nation, as of the flesh, but rather to the spiritual seed of Abraham – the spiritual Israel that is born from above.

We see an explanation and identification of who the children of Abraham actually are throughout the New Testament. Paul the Apostles informed the largely Gentile church in Rome, in Romans 4:13-15, “For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law (natural Israelites) be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect. Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.”

Paul keeps pressing home this point in his writings that the true seed of Abraham is not physical, but spiritual. These are a redeemed people of all nations that have entered into the household of faith. The fundamental thrust of the Abrahamic promise is continually shown not to be directed toward a physical people through keeping the law or a set of religious rules or rituals but rather a spiritual people of faith. This covenant was made with a faithful believing people (irrespective of circumcision or uncircumcision) who were in a right standing with God. God’s chosen people (the elect) were (and always will be) the Lord’s redeemed saints.

The whole teaching of Paul in Romans 2:17-29 revolves around defining what a real Jew is under the new covenant and what a true heathen is. Paul continues in Romans 2:25-29: “For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit [Gr. pneuma].”

Paul basically spiritualizes the terms circumcision and Jew to mean believer, and uncircumcision or Gentile to mean unbeliever. He teaches, if a man accepts Christ (regardless of his ethnicity) he is a spiritual Jew (or true circumcision); if a man rejects Christ (regardless of his ethnicity) he is a spiritual heathen (or true uncircumcision). Essentially, he is showing: Gentiles can become true Jews through faith in Jesus, and Jews can forfeit their right to be considered true Jews if they reject Jesus.

Talking about believing Gentiles, in Romans 2:26-29, Paul’s point is that through salvation, Gentiles who are physically uncircumcised are considered as circumcised and regarded as true Jews. They are indeed spiritual Israel. The key of course is faith in Christ – which only comes through the regenerating power of the Spirit of God. Under the new covenant, true Jewishness and circumcision are not physical realities but spiritual concepts made possible by the work of the Spirit of God. It is totally impossible for someone to come into a living relationship with God outside of Christ and the work of the Spirit. Each believer must, of necessity, be ‘born of the Spirit’. (John 3:3-8).

Paul further reinforces his argument in Philippians 3:3, speaking of the Church generally, “For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the Spirit [Gr. pneuma], and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.”

This verse is another that presents a major difficulty for the literalists. Their insistence that every reference to Israel, Jew, children of Abraham and circumcision must be strictly interpreted literally is exposed by passages like this.
 
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sovereigngrace

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(Sorry, but PM rejected this due to size limit)



If you list them by name and date, under (I would suggest ) amill, premil, neo-amill, chilliast, and perhaps a column for abbreviated notes, I might be able to create a table for you to insert in your posts (and your book?) I would use it too, but with credit to your name.

Blessings, Chris

I can do that, and I do appreciate. This is a subject where there is much misinformation and misunderstanding.
 
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