Jesus Changed Everything for Women

Michie

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Historian Tom Holland stopped believing in the Bible as a boy. He was far more attracted to Greek and Roman gods than to the crucified hero of the Christian faith. But after years of research, Holland has concluded in his book Dominion that even secular Westerners are deeply shaped by Christianity. In particular, he argues, people on all sides of today’s debates about gender and sexuality depend on Christian ideas:

That every human being possessed an equal dignity was not remotely a self-evident truth. A Roman would have laughed at it. To campaign against discrimination on the grounds of gender or sexuality, however, was to depend on large numbers of people sharing in a common assumption: that everyone possessed an inherent worth. The origins of this principle . . . lay not in the French Revolution, nor in the Declaration of Independence, nor in the Enlightenment, but in the Bible.

In Greco–Roman thinking, men were superior to women and sex was a way to prove it. “As captured cities were to the swords of the legions, so the bodies of those used sexually were to the Roman man,” Holland wrote. “To be penetrated, male or female, was to be branded as inferior.”

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Jesus Changed Everything for Women
 

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Interesting timing. My parish has been having a weekly book study group for the last few months, in which we're reading books together on various topics related to social justice. Our current book is about sexuality and gender, and the author has made exactly this historical point, that in the Roman world a person who was penetrated sexually (whether male or female) was viewed as inferior. The New Testament seems to reflect this view in some places, but it strongly opposes this view in other places. Our priest mentioned Holland's book in the course of the discussion.

I suppose this means I should add Holland's book to my reading list.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Interesting timing. My parish has been having a weekly book study group for the last few months, in which we're reading books together on various topics related to social justice. Our current book is about sexuality and gender, and the author has made exactly this historical point, that in the Roman world a person who was penetrated sexually (whether male or female) was viewed as inferior. The New Testament seems to reflect this view in some places, but it strongly opposes this view in other places. Our priest mentioned Holland's book in the course of the discussion.

I suppose this means I should add Holland's book to my reading list.

Paul did men and women no favors when he said "It's better to marry than to burn." Satisfying the sexual urge is not a good reason to marry.
 
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Historian Tom Holland stopped believing in the Bible as a boy. He was far more attracted to Greek and Roman gods than to the crucified hero of the Christian faith. But after years of research, Holland has concluded in his book Dominion that even secular Westerners are deeply shaped by Christianity. In particular, he argues, people on all sides of today’s debates about gender and sexuality depend on Christian ideas:

That every human being possessed an equal dignity was not remotely a self-evident truth. A Roman would have laughed at it. To campaign against discrimination on the grounds of gender or sexuality, however, was to depend on large numbers of people sharing in a common assumption: that everyone possessed an inherent worth. The origins of this principle . . . lay not in the French Revolution, nor in the Declaration of Independence, nor in the Enlightenment, but in the Bible.

In Greco–Roman thinking, men were superior to women and sex was a way to prove it. “As captured cities were to the swords of the legions, so the bodies of those used sexually were to the Roman man,” Holland wrote. “To be penetrated, male or female, was to be branded as inferior.”

Continued below.
Jesus Changed Everything for Women

Personally I'm not so sure Jesus changed everything for women (more than for other groups); at least I can't find a statement hinting at that anywhere in the NT. I do find statements that show everything changed for the Gentiles (Peter's vision in Acts).

'There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus' (Galatians 3:28), but that does not mean there are no believing slaves or slave owners anymore, or that there is no distinction between believing males or females (Paul called for slaves to obey their masters, and for masters to be reasonable with their slaves). Paul has very asymmetric instructions for men and women (e.g. for wives to respect and submit to their husbands), Jesus chose only 13 male apostles (including Paul), we do not read about cancellation of OT laws, etc..

Jesus does behave outside his societal norms speaking to a Samaritan woman with a questionable reputation, letting a 'sinful' woman dry his feet, challenging 'sinless' witnesses to cast the first stone for the woman caught in adultery, etc. but I don't see agenda in that changed the existing OT laws that treated men and women quite differently.

On the 'penetration' thing, I suspect that is recognised in cultures all over the place. It may be one of the explanations why homosexual acts between men are prohibited in OT law, but surprisingly not between women.
 
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Paidiske

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I guess if I look at the beliefs listed in the SOP for this forum, and ask myself if the Judaism of Jesus' time could have come to these positions without Christ, I'm not sure. On the one hand I'm aware of some very egalitarian Jewish communities. On the other hand, I'm aware that some Jewish communities are very, very far from egalitarian. But what influenced that diversity of positions, and how have they interplayed with Christian history? I'm just not a good enough scholar of Jewish history to know.

On the other hand, I think it's very clear that the Greco-Roman culture of Jesus' time did not hold within it the seeds of egalitarianism, and that the development of women's equality as a cultural phenomenon within the gentile world owes much to Christianity.
 
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RDKirk

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Paul did men and women no favors when he said "It's better to marry than to burn." Satisfying the sexual urge is not a good reason to marry.

Actually, he did.

At the time, marriage was a matter of creating and continuing a family legacy, not a means to physical pleasure. The Roman male sentiment at the time was, "A wife for legacy, a concubine for love." Marriage was not for love and physical pleasure for a wife was irrelevant.

Paul's preaching on sex and marriage eliminated the concubine and required that men love their wives. In Paul's teaching, both legacy and physical pleasure were to be found in marriage and in marriage alone. Moreover--and this is important--the man's responsibility to give physical pleasure to his wife was equal to her responsibility to give physical pleasure to him.

And while Paul put both legacy and pleasure into the same marriage relationship, he also gave pleasure its own standing in the marriage: Legacy need not be the only reason for sexual intercourse...pleasure was also a valid purpose.

Paul totally changed the Roman concept of marriage. I'm sure there were many dropped jaws among the men in the congregation over Paul's teachings.
 
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RDKirk

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Personally I'm not so sure Jesus changed everything for women (more than for other groups); at least I can't find a statement hinting at that anywhere in the NT. I do find statements that show everything changed for the Gentiles (Peter's vision in Acts).

I think He did. Ss Paidiske points out, Jewish culture already had seeds of egalitarianism within it, compared to surrounding cultures. Jesus rather pointedly poked holes in some of the remaining major dams. Jesus may have had only males among His apostles--but that might have been a purely tactical matter, in that males were free and able to move in that society but women were not. But He did have women among His disciples, and that was a big deal for a rabbi to have female disciples. That wouldn't have had too much effect on Judaism, but early Christians could read between the lines.

'There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus' (Galatians 3:28), but that does not mean there are no believing slaves or slave owners anymore, or that there is no distinction between believing males or females (Paul called for slaves to obey their masters, and for masters to be reasonable with their slaves). Paul has very asymmetric instructions for men and women (e.g. for wives to respect and submit to their husbands), Jesus chose only 13 male apostles (including Paul), we do not read about cancellation of OT laws, etc..

I'm not sure how asymmetric Paul's actual intention was. Paul's dilemma was that the nascent Church had to operate in a social atmosphere that could (and did) become hostile at any moment.

Given the clear symmetry of his declaration, there is no reason to think his concept was not as symmetrical. Scripture is explicit in showing Paul moving forcefully to eliminate the line between Gentile and Jew. But that was safe...only Jews really cared about that anyway...it was not a concern of the Roman empire if Jews and gentiles were buddies.

But Roman thought was still prickly from the Spartacus rebellion (and other slave rebellions like it), so an obvious overturning of slave culture or gender roles would have drawn immediate attention to Paul as a rebellion-rouser and the Church as a dangerous organization that flouted all social order and sensibility. Luke's depositions of his gospel and Acts show Paul taking pains to display Christianity as non-offensive to the Roman empire. Whatever problems Romans had with Christians, lawbreaking and rebellion would not be among them.

Yet, as with Jesus, Paul does give clear statements to indicate that within the Body of Christ, those other two lines were also abolished. Ephesians 6:9 abolishes the line within the Body of Christ between slaves and masters, turning slaves from being the property of their "masters" to being the responsibility of their "masters." It turns the masters into stewards. And of course, there is that letter to Philemon written for the sole purpose of freeing an escaped slave, which was a bold demand given the Roman laws that required an escaped slave to be severely punished (that Spartacus thing again).

And as well, statements such as Philippians 4:3 indicate a real movement to equalize the roles of women in the Church.

Jesus does behave outside his societal norms speaking to a Samaritan woman with a questionable reputation, letting a 'sinful' woman dry his feet, challenging 'sinless' witnesses to cast the first stone for the woman caught in adultery, etc. but I don't see agenda in that changed the existing OT laws that treated men and women quite differently.

Well, "agenda," no. Christ's clearly stated agenda was to bring salvation to mankind. But modus operandi, yes. And that was as true for Paul. Paul's agenda was to spread the gospel, not to fix the Roman empire.

On the 'penetration' thing, I suspect that is recognised in cultures all over the place. It may be one of the explanations why homosexual acts between men are prohibited in OT law, but surprisingly not between women.

That was also how homosexuality played out within the Roman army. To be the penetrator of either male or female was acceptable. For a legionary have been penetrated, however, drew a death sentence.

There was a Roman army story of an attractive junior officer who was constantly being pressured for sex by his senior officer. Other officers were aware of it, but they were merely watching to see how the matter played out. Eventually, the young man murdered his own senior officer. That would have also drawn a death sentence, but because the other officers were aware of the circumstance, they did not prosecute the young officer...he had taken the more honorable way out. It's unknown if that story is really true, but the fact that it was passed around within the legions indicates their attitude about such things.
 
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Jesus may have had only males among His apostles--but that might have been a purely tactical matter, in that males were free and able to move in that society but women were not. But He did have women among His disciples, and that was a big deal for a rabbi to have female disciples.

I used to accept this "all-male apostles" idea, but not after doing a bit of comparing scripture with scripture.

Of course, we know that the originally-chosen 12 were all male disciples. But the later designation of the "chief Apostles" (meaning the chosen 11 and the substitute Matthias) was NOT the end of those who were called "apostles" in those days. (Barnabas and Paul being clear examples of this in Acts 14:14.) Did women also compose part of this extended group of "apostles", separate from the "chief Apostles"? Yes, I believe they did, a fact revealed by comparing scripture with scripture.

What was the evidential proof identifying one who could be called an apostle?
"Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in SIGNS, and WONDERS, and MIGHTY DEEDS." (2 Cor. 12:12).

Wasn't prophesying in other tongues called "a SIGN..., to them that believe not"? (1 Cor. 14:22).

Weren't women also participating in this SIGN of prophesying in other tongues during those early days of the church, in fulfillment of the Joel 2:28-32 prophecy? We are told that both "daughters" and "handmaids" would also share in having the Spirit poured out upon them in those days of Pentecost and following, resulting in their prophesying in this manner.

Therefore, since women were performing one of the required SIGNS of being an apostle in those days, we can deduce that women were apostles as well as men in those days.

Christ didn't just have men disciples following him in his travels. MANY women followed Him, coming to Him out of all those cities as Christ traveled to Jerusalem, and they ministered to Him of their substance (Luke 8:1-3).
 
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Clare73

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I used to accept this "all-male apostles" idea, but not after doing a bit of comparing scripture with scripture.

Of course, we know that the originally-chosen 12 were all male disciples. But the later designation of the "chief Apostles" (meaning the chosen 11 and the substitute Matthias) was NOT the end of those who were called "apostles" in those days. (Barnabas and Paul being clear examples of this in Acts 14:14.) Did women also compose part of this extended group of "apostles", separate from the "chief Apostles"? Yes, I believe they did, a fact revealed by comparing scripture with scripture.

What was the evidential proof identifying one who could be called an apostle?
"Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in SIGNS, and WONDERS, and MIGHTY DEEDS." (2 Cor. 12:12).

Wasn't prophesying in other tongues called "a SIGN..., to them that believe not"? (1 Cor. 14:22).

Weren't women also participating in this SIGN of prophesying in other tongues during those early days of the church, in fulfillment of the Joel 2:28-32 prophecy? We are told that both "daughters" and "handmaids" would also share in having the Spirit poured out upon them in those days of Pentecost and following, resulting in their prophesying in this manner.
Therefore, since women were performing one of the required SIGNS of being an apostle in those days,
we can deduce that women were apostles as well as men in those days.
There was more than one requirement for being an apostle, and they did not meet them: chiefly
one who had been with them the whole time Jesus went in and out (ministered publicly) among them, beginning from John's baptism of Jesus to his asencsion and
who had been a witness of the resurrection. (Acts 2:21-22)

Let's quit trting to rewrite the NT by "deduction" for the sake of our politial correctness.
 
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Gregorikos

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There was more than one requirement for being an apostle, and they did not meet them: chiefly
one who had been with them the whole time Jesus went in and out (ministered publicly) among them, beginning from John's baptism of Jesus to his asencsion and
who had been a witness of the resurrection. (Acts 2:21-22)

Let's quit trting to rewrite the NT by "deduction" for the sake of our politial correctness.

I'd invite you to remember that the Apostle Paul fails your test, yet he was an apostle anyway. And adjust your understanding accordingly.
 
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Clare73

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I'd invite you to remember that the Apostle Paul fails your test, yet he was an apostle anyway. And adjust your understanding accordingly.
Contrare. . .

Paul was chosen by God to be an apostle (1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians,
1 and 2 Timothy 1:1) just as the apostles were.

And Paul received his teaching from Jesus (Galatians 2:11-12) just as the apostles did,

and Paul was caught up to the third heaven and heard things man is not permitted to tell (2 Corinthians 12:1-8), which the apsotle were not.

So I invite you to adjust your understanding accordingly.

Physician, heal thyself.
 
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There was more than one requirement for being an apostle, and they did not meet them: chiefly
one who had been with them the whole time Jesus went in and out (ministered publicly) among them, beginning from John's baptism of Jesus to his asencsion and
who had been a witness of the resurrection. (Acts 2:21-22)

You are referring to the requirements that had to be met for one to be the replacement for Judas. That group of the "chief Apostles" was a bit different than the "other apostles", which was a separate category that did not require as stringent a list of requirements.

Remember, Christ in rising from the dead brought with Him a "multitude of captives" out of the grave and gave them as gifts to men in Ephesians 4. Among these individual "gifts" were those who were apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. Yet those called "apostles" whom Christ raised from the dead had not been with Him from the beginning of His earthly ministry. They had been rotting in the grave during that time. The word "apostles" simply means "sent ones", which may or may not be the original "chief Apostles" group of 12.
 
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RDKirk

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I used to accept this "all-male apostles" idea, but not after doing a bit of comparing scripture with scripture.

Of course, we know that the originally-chosen 12 were all male disciples. But the later designation of the "chief Apostles" (meaning the chosen 11 and the substitute Matthias) was NOT the end of those who were called "apostles" in those days. (Barnabas and Paul being clear examples of this in Acts 14:14.) Did women also compose part of this extended group of "apostles", separate from the "chief Apostles"? Yes, I believe they did, a fact revealed by comparing scripture with scripture.

What was the evidential proof identifying one who could be called an apostle?
"Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in SIGNS, and WONDERS, and MIGHTY DEEDS." (2 Cor. 12:12).

Wasn't prophesying in other tongues called "a SIGN..., to them that believe not"? (1 Cor. 14:22).

Weren't women also participating in this SIGN of prophesying in other tongues during those early days of the church, in fulfillment of the Joel 2:28-32 prophecy? We are told that both "daughters" and "handmaids" would also share in having the Spirit poured out upon them in those days of Pentecost and following, resulting in their prophesying in this manner.

Therefore, since women were performing one of the required SIGNS of being an apostle in those days, we can deduce that women were apostles as well as men in those days.

The signs were never limited to the apostles. Paul clearly indicates that signs and wonders were common among, for instance, the Galatians and the Corinthians. Signs and wonders do not indicate apostleship.

Both Mark and Matthew are explicit in asserting that Jesus called "the Eleven" away from the rest of His disciples as the specific persons to whom He delivered the great commission.

Christ didn't just have men disciples following him in his travels. MANY women followed Him, coming to Him out of all those cities as Christ traveled to Jerusalem, and they ministered to Him of their substance (Luke 8:1-3).

I explicitly said that women were among His disciples. And I pointed out that in itself was a big deal because rabbis of the day did not have female disciples.
 
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Hi RDKirk,

Not disputing your statement about the original chosen 11 who were given the great commission, later increased to 12 with Matthias added to their number. Those were the ones Paul called the "chief Apostles" in 2 Cor. 11:5. A separate group who symbolically formed the 12 foundations of the Spiritual New Jerusalem in Revelation 21:14, and who were seated on those 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel in Jerusalem where the early church originated.

And we agree that women were among the disciples, which I believe also traveled around Israel along with Christ, ministering to Him of their substance.

Signs and wonders do not indicate apostleship.

This statement above, however, I believe to be in conflict with the 2 Cor. 12:12 verse that states what those signs of an apostle actually were. It lists them as "SIGNS, AND WONDERS, AND MIGHTY DEEDS", which women were also participating in during those early days of the church after Pentecost, as Joel prophesied would happen using God's daughters and handmaids.

Since Saul / Paul was imprisoning both men and women in those first days of church persecution, this proves that women's activities in those days were also making them targets for persecution along with the men. I believe that women's evangelistic endeavors commissioned by Christ as "sent ones" / aka apostles had been predicted long ago back in Psalm 68:11 (ESV and others) "The Lord gives the word; the women who announce the news are a great host:"
 
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RDKirk

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Hi RDKirk,

Not disputing your statement about the original chosen 11 who were given the great commission, later increased to 12 with Matthias added to their number. Those were the ones Paul called the "chief Apostles" in 2 Cor. 11:5. A separate group who symbolically formed the 12 foundations of the Spiritual New Jerusalem in Revelation 21:14, and who were seated on those 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel in Jerusalem where the early church originated.

And we agree that women were among the disciples, which I believe also traveled around Israel along with Christ, ministering to Him of their substance.



This statement above, however, I believe to be in conflict with the 2 Cor. 12:12 verse that states what those signs of an apostle actually were. It lists them as "SIGNS, AND WONDERS, AND MIGHTY DEEDS", which women were also participating in during those early days of the church after Pentecost, as Joel prophesied would happen using God's daughters and handmaids.

Since Saul / Paul was imprisoning both men and women in those first days of church persecution, this proves that women's activities in those days were also making them targets for persecution along with the men. I believe that women's evangelistic endeavors commissioned by Christ as "sent ones" / aka apostles had been predicted long ago back in Psalm 68:11 (ESV and others) "The Lord gives the word; the women who announce the news are a great host:"

They only argument you made (or could make) about signs and wonders was about prophesying which clearly many people in the church at Corinth were doing...that was not in any way limited to apostles.
 
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They only argument you made (or could make) about signs and wonders was about prophesying which clearly many people in the church at Corinth were doing...that was not in any way limited to apostles.

Not exactly the argument I made, since I wrote that "prophesying in other tongues" was a sign that women were performing on Pentecost Day and after. Sign gifts in operation were an indication of being an apostle, which was a blessing poured out on that generation in order to inaugurate the New Covenant era. So we should not be surprised that many people in the church at Corinth were doing this. God was generously gifting many in that era, in order to combat the recently-loosed Satan who was walking about as a lion, looking for those he could devour with his deception in that "short time".

The role of regular apostles back in those early church days (aside from the "chief Apostles") was not as rare a position as I have always been told it was.
 
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RDKirk

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Not exactly the argument I made, since I wrote that "prophesying in other tongues" was a sign that women were performing on Pentecost Day and after. Sign gifts in operation were an indication of being an apostle, which was a blessing poured out on that generation in order to inaugurate the New Covenant era. So we should not be surprised that many people in the church at Corinth were doing this. God was generously gifting many in that era, in order to combat the recently-loosed Satan who was walking about as a lion, looking for those he could devour with his deception in that "short time".

The role of regular apostles back in those early church days (aside from the "chief Apostles") was not as rare a position as I have always been told it was.

So we're quibbling over "regular apostles" and "chief apostles."

Okay.
 
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So we're quibbling over "regular apostles" and "chief apostles."

Okay.

Well, I'm not sure I would call Christ an example of "quibbling" over this when He was actually the one who made the distinction between the first Apostles - the 12 chosen disciples sitting on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel in the early church at Jerusalem - and the rest of the other apostles, both men and women, who were not seated on those 12 thrones.

This NT set up with 12 thrones for the disciples / Apostles was supposed to fulfill the OT type of the "thrones of judgment" set up in Jerusalem. That was where the tribes of the Lord went up to hear judgment passed on matters that were too difficult for settling within the tribes themselves (Ps. 122:3-5 compared with Deut. 17:8-13). Those symbolic 12 thrones were sort of like a religious "supreme court" in those days of the early church, when the question of circumcision was judged, the decision was made about widow's care and choosing deacons from among themselves, laying hands on missionary evangelists etc..

Those 12 thrones for the Apostles were the very same thrones found in Revelation 20:4, with those sitting on them "having judgment given unto them", just as Christ had already delegated this to the 12 disciples back in Matthew 19:28. (This fact helps anchor the background of those Revelation 20 verses to a first-century setting interpretation.)
 
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