Jeremiah 18: Romans 9 De-Calvinized

Hammster said:

And which of the 8+ definitions of world are you using?

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John 1 says "He made the World" - John 3 says "God so loved the World" that was made by Him.

I believe in a 7 day creation week so I believe the world He made included Adam and Eve - which was all mankind

Hammster said:

Okay, so why do we all lose our inability to sin?

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We grow up. And develop sentience and an ability to choose.

tdidymas said:

It speaks of God's patience. It speaks of the words written down by the prophets to be the means by which the people ought to know enough to repent and turn to God. It speaks of the sinful nature which is a spiritual problem, not an intellectual problem. It speaks of something in the spiritual realm that people need which they don't have, and which only comes from God.

Therefore, when people think they can judge what is right for themselves, and think they can understand God by intellectual reasoning, they end up being self-centered which is idolatry. It's the attitude that "I" know what's best, which is alluded to in Rom. 3:4. And how is that attitude to be changed to one of humility toward God? This is what takes an act of God in the spiritual realm. That act of God is spiritual rebirth, according to John 3, 1 Cor. 2, Eph. 2, and other places. That act results in a change of attitude toward God for that individual.

So that verse in context is saying that God is letting Jews stew in their own misunderstanding (but not all of them).

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So what is God patiently waiting for? If not waiting for the people of Israel to accept him?

Is God waiting for their spiritual rebirth so that He can then send them to hell?

Is not repentance a choice that a person makes? And through repentance God might then, in response, save them?

I would say that God is waiting, with His hands extended, for the Israelites to make a choice. He's not waiting around for Himself to make his own choice.

Hammster said:

Do you think we will be able to sin in heaven? Or will we lose our ability to choose?

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I don't know. I tend to think of heaven as a place intimately with God that would be free of sin. Maybe we would retain our free will and choice and yet, maybe there would be no sinful options to choose from. This makes me wonder if God could sin in heaven. Would he be able to? Or would there be something logically impossible about it? I do not think heaven will be anything like existence is here on earth. Does God even make choices (as if God would stop and think about options)? Or does God simply exist? I'm tending toward the latter.

Hammster said:

If you are wondering if God can sin then it’s time to abandon this discussion and get in the Word to make sure you understand God’s character.

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Well, you'll see my tendency to go with the latter of a logical impossibility. Is it wrong to ponder such questions now?

I'm not the one who dragged the conversation into this unrelated topic. I'm merely pondering the details of your question.

I could similarly ask the question of if Jesus ever sinned while he was on earth. Or more specifically could He have, if He wanted to? It's a fair question to ask given that Jesus is all powerful. There is presumably something logically impossible about it though.

Much in the same way, could a loving God send unborn infants to hell when they had no ability to choose Christ as their savior? One might think that based on the calvinist position that unborn children are under sin and therefore deserving of hell. And yet, there is something logically impossible about this position.

Hammster said:

The fact that you are asking these questions means it’s time for you to do more study.

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When you're ready to get back to the topic, feel free to let me know. Right now i just see an absence of a response.

Hammster said:

I don’t see the point if you think it’s possible for God to sin. We don’t have the same point of reference.

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I deferred to it as a logical impossibility. I suspect that you don't want to talk about the actual topic anymore.

tdidymas said:

None that I can think of.


I thought that the term "predestinated" meant that God decrees salvation for certain individuals. Predestine means to destine someone for a certain end before they exist, doesn't it? It doesn't mean foresee, as if God isn't involved in it. According to John 6, God draws some individuals to Christ, and doesn't draw others (by implication). That means when someone is drawn to Christ, God is actively drawing them from the spiritual realm, literally, and through the gospel message. It's the means of fulfilling the predestination. Others aren't drawn (as observed in reality), therefore, God isn't drawing them. If you want to use the term "dictate" which implies a derogatory attitude toward what scripture is saying about that, it's your prerogative.

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I didn't mean dictate in a derogatory way, but rather that simply appears to be what you're saying. The problem with this position is that it suggests that God not only determines who will be saved, but by default it also means that God determines who will go to hell, even in instances in which a person may not sin (as is the case with an unborn child).

The troubling implications of this position are many. What good would prayer be, if someone were to pray after already being predestined for hell? What was God waiting for when He was holding His hands out to the Israelites? (Rom 10:21). Why did Jesus call on people to repent in Mark 1:15, if Jesus already predestined who would and would not be saved? The multitude of verses involving people choosing to follow God: 12 Bible verses about Choosing God's Way

How could we reconcile the idea that God pre destines the ultimate fate, salvation or hell, in light of all of this?

And someone else said something along the lines that all are under sin and therefore deserve punishment, and that God through His mercy saves some, purely by His own will and not of any act of mankind. Which sounds nice on the surface, but then it also implies that the multitudes beyond the elect few, burn in hell, for the sake of demonstrating God's Glory, even in instances of infants (being born in sin and therefore deserving of punishments) who could not even possibly sin.

This is what people are saying here in this thread, and it just can't possibly be the truth of God. And this isn't about incredulity but rather it just logically stands in stark contrast to a loving God and a number of passages as noted above.

God may influence people, as noted above, but human choice must exist and must play a role in our salvation (at least as a default with fewer exceptions). Else we end up with some really complicated issues with scripture and Gods role in sending people to damnation and punishment to glorify Himself. Which would run contrary to being a loving God.

Isaiah 41:10 said:

So what is God patiently waiting for? If not waiting for the people of Israel to accept him?

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Since He knows it will never happen, He is waiting for them to realize that doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result, is futile. Yet we know that won't happen to an unregenerate person, so God must act in order for a person to realize that truth. It's a spiritual matter, and requires a spiritual solution.

Is God waiting for their spiritual rebirth so that He can then send them to hell?

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God is the one who enacts spiritual rebirth on individuals.

Is not repentance a choice that a person makes? And through repentance God might then, in response, save them?

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A person repents only after God has given them the wisdom from above to know how, and what from, to repent. Otherwise, it doesn't happen, according to Rom. 3:10-18.

I would say that God is waiting, with His hands extended, for the Israelites to make a choice. He's not waiting around for Himself to make his own choice.

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God doesn't wait for Himself. He acts on individuals at whatever time He desires, according to how He has prepared those individuals (Rom. 9:23).

The waiting is the time of preparation for the elect, as well as the time of culpability for the vessels of destruction (Rom. 9:22).

Isaiah 41:10 said:

I didn't mean dictate in a derogatory way, but rather that simply appears to be what you're saying. The problem with this position is that it suggests that God not only determines who will be saved, but by default it also means that God determines who will go to hell, even in instances in which a person may not sin (as is the case with an unborn child).

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Since God already knows which children will die in infancy, how do you know that God has not elected all of them to salvation? After all, Jesus said of Judas "it would have been better for him if he were not born." God knows all possible futures, but determines only one, which we see in history.

The troubling implications of this position are many. What good would prayer be, if someone were to pray after already being predestined for hell? What was God waiting for when He was holding His hands out to the Israelites? (Rom 10:21). Why did Jesus call on people to repent in Mark 1:15, if Jesus already predestined who would and would not be saved? The multitude of verses involving people choosing to follow God: 12 Bible verses about Choosing God's Way

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The call to repentance is the means by which God brings us to obedience. But you are speaking as if God is not even involved in our decision, which tells me you don't know scripture or the power of God. Try reading Phil. 2:13 and compare it with Phil. 2:12.

How could we reconcile the idea that God pre destines the ultimate fate, salvation or hell, in light of all of this?

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God chooses to display His justice to all those not believing in Christ, according to Rom. 9:22. It seems to me that you have a problem with God displaying His glory in this way.

And someone else said something along the lines that all are under sin and therefore deserve punishment, and that God through His mercy saves some, purely by His own will and not of any act of mankind. Which sounds nice on the surface, but then it also implies that the multitudes beyond the elect few, burn in hell, for the sake of demonstrating God's Glory, even in instances of infants (being born in sin and therefore deserving of punishments) who could not even possibly sin.

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Already addressed above.

This is what people are saying here in this thread, and it just can't possibly be the truth of God. And this isn't about incredulity but rather it just logically stands in stark contrast to a loving God and a number of passages as noted above.

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The exaggerations of objectors and the reasoning of humans will never prevail over what God says about Himself in scripture. Just because you use faulty reasoning to claim that what the scripture clearly states about predestination of the elect isn't true, that doesn't make it untrue. Your assessment doesn't change what scripture clearly states.

How can God show His ultimate love to the elect, unless there are people to condemn? The problem with not having the contrast of evil in the world, none of us would appreciate the goodness of God. This was displayed clearly in the Garden of Eden. If we had no fear of God's wrath, we would not appreciate His ultimate love which He displayed through Christ. In the same way, God condemns most people who are culpable for the sin they commit, but saves a remnant like us so that we will appreciate salvation all the more.

God may influence people, as noted above, but human choice must exist and must play a role in our salvation (at least as a default with fewer exceptions). Else we end up with some really complicated issues with scripture and Gods role in sending people to damnation and punishment to glorify Himself. Which would run contrary to being a loving God.

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You speak far too highly of human choice. The problem laid out in Rom. 3:10-18 is a spiritual problem, requiring a spiritual solution. The apostle Paul wrote often of slavery to sin, along with Jesus saying it in John 8. If you don't believe what scripture teaches about total depravity, you won't see that human choice apart from the act of God just doesn't cut the mustard.

tdidymas said:

Since God already knows which children will die in infancy, how do you know that God has not elected all of them to salvation? After all, Jesus said of Judas "it would have been better for him if he were not born." God knows all possible futures, but determines only one, which we see in history.

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God wouldn't elect people for salvation (at least not completely independent of human action), because in turn, this would also mean that God elects people for damnation, independently of our actions. Meaning that even an infant that is without sin, may be punished, and that nothing we do, no choice we can ever make, would benefit our odds of salvation.

tdidymas said:

The call to repentance is the means by which God brings us to obedience. But you are speaking as if God is not even involved in our decision, which tells me you don't know scripture or the power of God. Try reading Phil. 2:13 and compare it with Phil. 2:12.

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Involvement or influence is an aspect. But influence is not equivelant to a judgement (salvation or damnation) being made independently of any choice that we ourselves make.

tdidymas said:

God chooses to display His justice to all those not believing in Christ, according to Rom. 9:22. It seems to me that you have a problem with God displaying His glory in this way.

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Does God display His justice to an unborn fetus? Surely God would take into account the fact that this infant has not committed sin in consideration of how the infant should be judged. Meaning that the actions or inactions in this case are weighed in judgement.

tdidymas said:

The exaggerations of objectors and the reasoning of humans will never prevail over what God says about Himself in scripture. Just because you use faulty reasoning to claim that what the scripture clearly states about predestination of the elect isn't true, that doesn't make it untrue. Your assessment doesn't change what scripture clearly states.

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I don't think that you're addressing my words, nor even my own quotes of scripture. I still have no idea what you think God was waiting on the Israelites to do in Romans 10:21 if their choice had no bearing on their destiny.

tdidymas said:

How can God show His ultimate love to the elect, unless there are people to condemn? The problem with not having the contrast of evil in the world, none of us would appreciate the goodness of God. This was displayed clearly in the Garden of Eden. If we had no fear of God's wrath, we would not appreciate His ultimate love which He displayed through Christ. In the same way, God condemns most people who are culpable for the sin they commit, but saves a remnant like us so that we will appreciate salvation all the more.

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The key issue is not of God being righteous in condemning sinners, it's in the idea that God also punishes independently of any choice we make (or do not make). Meaning that God would essentially be the author and in complete control of our damnation. I don't think that a loving God could punish people independently of any choice they made, no more could a loving parent punish their child independently of the same.

tdidymas said:

You speak far too highly of human choice. The problem laid out in Rom. 3:10-18 is a spiritual problem, requiring a spiritual solution. The apostle Paul wrote often of slavery to sin, along with Jesus saying it in John 8. If you don't believe what scripture teaches about total depravity, you won't see that human choice apart from the act of God just doesn't cut the mustard.

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As long as we could at least agree that human choice, meaning a choice that we independently make (rather than God making the choice for us), plays a role in our salvation, that's fine by me.

tdidymas said:

Since He knows it will never happen, He is waiting for them to realize that doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result, is futile. Yet we know that won't happen to an unregenerate person, so God must act in order for a person to realize that truth. It's a spiritual matter, and requires a spiritual solution.


God is the one who enacts spiritual rebirth on individuals.


A person repents only after God has given them the wisdom from above to know how, and what from, to repent. Otherwise, it doesn't happen, according to Rom. 3:10-18.


God doesn't wait for Himself. He acts on individuals at whatever time He desires, according to how He has prepared those individuals (Rom. 9:23).

The waiting is the time of preparation for the elect, as well as the time of culpability for the vessels of destruction (Rom. 9:22).

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So God is waiting, all day long, with His hands extended to the Israelites, for Himself and His own decision to give the Israelites the wisdom to repent.

God knows that they won't repent on their own, so God just sits there waiting, all day long, with His hands out, waiting for Himself to help them.

Isaiah 41:10 said:

So God is waiting, all day long, with His hands extended to the Israelites, for Himself and His own decision to give the Israelites the wisdom to repent.

God knows that they won't repent on their own, so God just sits there waiting, all day long, with His hands out, waiting for Himself to help them.

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Not only to you twist it out of shape, you keep harping on the same false idea. It appears to me you don't really want to understand how I show what the scripture is teaching, but you just seem to want to argue.

Isaiah 41:10 said:

God wouldn't elect people for salvation (at least not completely independent of human action), because in turn, this would also mean that God elects people for damnation, independently of our actions. Meaning that even an infant that is without sin, may be punished, and that nothing we do, no choice we can ever make, would benefit our odds of salvation.

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You seem to think that if God doesn't offer salvation to someone that He's not just. No, God is NOT obligated to save ANYONE! ALL are culpable for their sin, and deserve lake of fire judgment, even you.

Involvement or influence is an aspect. But influence is not equivelant to a judgement (salvation or damnation) being made independently of any choice that we ourselves make.

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Lake of fire judgment is not ANYONE'S choice. Everyone wants either paradise or non-existence. Therefore your idea that people choose damnation is a fallacy.

Does God display His justice to an unborn fetus? Surely God would take into account the fact that this infant has not committed sin in consideration of how the infant should be judged. Meaning that the actions or inactions in this case are weighed in judgement.

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God is just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. This is what we know of scripture. Anything outside of that knowledge is speculation. I'm not going to argue about that.

I don't think that you're addressing my words, nor even my own quotes of scripture. I still have no idea what you think God was waiting on the Israelites to do in Romans 10:21 if their choice had no bearing on their destiny.

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I already told you, I think you just want to argue about it.

The key issue is not of God being righteous in condemning sinners, it's in the idea that God also punishes independently of any choice we make (or do not make). Meaning that God would essentially be the author and in complete control of our damnation. I don't think that a loving God could punish people independently of any choice they made, no more could a loving parent punish their child independently of the same.

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You don't seem to get this fact: "You must be born again." Salvation is not about a choice you make, but rather about what God does to save you. Have you experienced spiritual rebirth?

As long as we could at least agree that human choice, meaning a choice that we independently make (rather than God making the choice for us), plays a role in our salvation, that's fine by me.

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No, that's what I disagree with. I take a stand on what the Bible says. The elect are saved by the grace of God, which is defined in Eph. 2:5 "even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved" - it is also a description of spiritual rebirth, and what I've been saying all along. It's an act of God, and the choice to believe and obey the gospel results from that act of God.

tdidymas said:

Not only to you twist it out of shape, you keep harping on the same false idea. It appears to me you don't really want to understand how I show what the scripture is teaching, but you just seem to want to argue.

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That's what you have appeared to have said. So God is patiently enduring, with His hands extended to the Israelites

"Since He knows it will never happen, He is waiting for them to realize" "Yet we know that won't happen" "so God must act in order for a person to realize".

So God is patiently waiting for His own action.

"A person repents only after God has given them the wisdom" "otherwise it doesn't happen".

So God is patiently enduring all day long, with His hands extended to the Israelites, as if God is anticipating receiving something. Yet God knows it will never happen without Him taking the first step.

Meaning that God is essentially waiting for Himself.