Gene2memE

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50% of all new business fail within the first 5 years.

The fact that small businesses have a high failure rate does nothing to refute the point that businesses owners can and do continue to extract income/value from their businesses even when there's no profit.

Companies can be losing money and the owners will still get paid - even extravagantly. There are literally thousands of business and remuneration structures around that limit the liabilities of owners while ensuring they continue to earn an income.

At the moment, the firm I work for is doing advisory work on an business jet firm winding up operations. The company NEVER generated a profit in ~8 years of operations, but its co-founders are walking away MUCH richer than when they started the business. The biggest losers out of the whole thing are its suppliers and debt holders.

Care to answer my question?

Sure. The question was "who is gonna invest their time and capital to start a company, just to give it to the laborers?"

To which I answer:
People with a sense of fairness and morality;
People with a sense of community;
People who weren't raised with a "%^&* you I've got mine" mentality;
People who realise that sharing in the success of a firm can help motivate a workforce;
People who realise that business success isn't necessarily limited to classical/neoconservative metrics of profit, return on capital, return on equity and share value;
People who feel obligated to share their success and realise that a rising tide can lift all boats;
People who believe that their business success was the result of collective effort and risk, and so the fruits of that should be shared
People who realise that workers' share of profits has dropped precipitously over the past 50 years, while the share of those who have money and use money to make more money has risen
People who want to attract more and better workers to their company

Those sort of people.
 
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morningstar2651

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But who is gonna invest their time and capital to start a company, just to give it to the laborers?
Someone who is also a laborer. Have you not been able to wrap your head around the idea of a business that is collectively owned by the workers rather than owned by a single capitalist? The workers collectively invest in the business, and they collectively make the decisions of the business. There is no more employer/employee contract or relationship. The employees are the employers. They own the business together. They make the decisions together.

If someone doesn't work, then why should they be entitled to the profits of the business and empowered to make decisions about what the workers do? If they were poor, we'd call them freeloaders. Since they're rich, we instead call them executives.
 
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98cwitr

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How many people do you think can afford to quit their jobs to launch a startup?

Oh many ways. A lot of people do it by financially leaning on a spouse or family member. Others will pool investors together. Others even take out business loans. Lots of ways to raise money for things like this.

It's not feasible if they're living paycheck-to-paycheck.

Sure it is, if you're motivated to manage your time well in pursuit of such a thing.

Within capitalism, we have two classes of people. We have the working class that lives by exchanging their labor for wages, and we have the owning class that makes money by owning things. They don't need to work. They live off the surplus value they extract from the labor of the working class. These are the slumlords and robber barons. It's the landlord whose mortgage you pay in return for temporary accommodations. It's the business owner that steals their employee's wages and tips.

It's not stealing if it's voluntary. No one forces someone to work for someone else. We don't have "labor camps" under capitalism. Which economic system do we find "labor camps" existing under?

In the pandemic, we have a new term for the working class - the "essential workers"

Who deeds who "essential?"

If the owning class doesn't show up to the office, everything can still function just fine...but if the essential workers stop showing up, then the work doesn't get done. A lot of people are starting to realize that the owning class are just leeches that don't contribute to a business's success.

Run a business before trashing business owners. They do a lot more than you think or are aware of. There is no defense of socialism in my book: Implemented, it exposes the greatest wealth disparity, forced by government, that could possibly exist. Why do you think all these major corporations promote it? Because their CEOs would become the new oligarchs along with government elites.

Equality of outcome makes us (that is, the working class) all slaves.

Equality of opportunity makes us free.

And this is not conceptual, history proves that socialism and communism are married together and result in horrible atrocities. We need not even entertain the thought of them any longer.
 
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98cwitr

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That seems to be the problem. Do you have a solution for that?

Yes. The solution is to not covet your neighbor's things, and to ensure that people are free enough to achieve prosperity if they choose to pursuit it to such ends.

The "but rich people" argument simply exposes the depraved human tendency to be covetous.
 
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grasping the after wind

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There is nothing inherently authoritarian about socialism.

It is impossible to have actual socialism without an authoritarian institution to impose it.

If you’re not one of the people saying socialism is something other than worker ownership of the means of production, I’ve descended upon the wrong set of quotes.

I believe that your definition is faulty. Replace the word "worker" with "state" and I would agree with definition. A worker is a means of production.
 
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grasping the after wind

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A country can choose between financially supporting the infrastructures that takes care of its own citizens or fund a vast military-industrial complex but not both.

Europeans has generally opted for the former, the USA is struggling to come to terms with its reliance on the latter.

The US could better afford infrastructures if it didn't use its vast military/ (not so industrial any more ) complex for the defense of countries that are then free to spend more on their infrastructure and less on their own defense.
 
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Bradskii

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Yes. The solution is to not covet your neighbor's things, and to ensure that people are free enough to achieve prosperity if they choose to pursuit it to such ends.

The "but rich people" argument simply exposes the depraved human tendency to be covetous.

I don't see a solution there. The CEO-to-worker pay ratio is 58:1 at Amazon. Average wage is about $30k. Bezos wealth is 7 million times that figure. I'm not knocking the guy. I'm knocking a system that has figures like that there are simply incomprehensible. Messi earns that $30k every two hours.

It's frankly obscene. And your solution is 'don't covet your neighbour's...what? 200' yacht? The one with the helipad? While you're on food stamps and passing clothes down from child to child and working two jobs to earn enough for food for the week?

Something is seriously wrong. And accepting that is the first stage in fixing it.
 
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grasping the after wind

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I don't see a solution there. The CEO-to-worker pay ratio is 58:1 at Amazon. Average wage is about $30k. Bezos wealth is 7 million times that figure. I'm not knocking the guy. I'm knocking a system that has figures like that there are simply incomprehensible. Messi earns that $30k every two hours.

It's frankly obscene. And your solution is 'don't covet your neighbour's...what? 200' yacht? The one with the helipad? While you're on food stamps and passing clothes down from child to child and working two jobs to earn enough for food for the week?

Something is seriously wrong. And accepting that is the first stage in fixing it.

Why is it objectively wrong that one person has more financial resources than another? You state a situation and c proclaim it wrong but do not explain what makes it wrong. You also blame a system for the thing you consider wrong but don't explain how the system you are blaming causes the wrong you see to be the case.

If I have 58 pairs of socks and you have one which of us is barefoot? If i made acquiring socks my priority and you made something else a priority why would you consider it a system that caused you to have less socks than I do?
 
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hislegacy

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Yeah. That's my goal. That's why I'm explaining how it works to more people. It works really well and the success rate is on-par or better than the conventional firms you're probably used to in Capitalism.

How does a company with 200,000 employees make any decisions when there iare 200,000 board members with equal say?
 
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98cwitr

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I don't see a solution there. The CEO-to-worker pay ratio is 58:1 at Amazon. Average wage is about $30k. Bezos wealth is 7 million times that figure. I'm not knocking the guy. I'm knocking a system that has figures like that there are simply incomprehensible. Messi earns that $30k every two hours.

It's frankly obscene. And your solution is 'don't covet your neighbour's...what? 200' yacht? The one with the helipad? While you're on food stamps and passing clothes down from child to child and working two jobs to earn enough for food for the week?

Something is seriously wrong. And accepting that is the first stage in fixing it.

It doesn't matter if it's 100:1 or 1000:1 IF the wages are agreed upon by the employee when seeking employment. My neighbor works for Amazon and is quite happy about her position there. Amazon is paying people above the poverty line, so the "food stamps" argument is inaccurate and nothing beyond a virtue signal.

Honestly, the concern over what Bezos has or makes is simply coveting. In loving our neighbor as ourselves, we must even love those who are both rich and poor.
 
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Bradskii

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Why is it objectively wrong that one person has more financial resources than another? You state a situation and c proclaim it wrong but do not explain what makes it wrong. You also blame a system for the thing you consider wrong but don't explain how the system you are blaming causes the wrong you see to be the case.

If I have 58 pairs of socks and you have one which of us is barefoot? If i made acquiring socks my priority and you made something else a priority why would you consider it a system that caused you to have less socks than I do?

Look, I'm not exactly poor. But there is a limit to what I expect the difference in income opportunity should be. I've gone through tough times (mortgage rates at 17% for heaven's sake) but with some luck, some hard work and some common sense my wife and I are financially OK. But the difference between what I'm worth and what the guy working in the local 711 is worth is a reasonable figure. Or the local teachers. Or the nurses at my local hospital. Or the boys in blue at the local police station. The difference is not a factor of a few million. Which is, as I said, obscene in my view.

I'm not looking for a socialist utopia. It never existed and it never will. But I will demand from my politicians a fair and equitable distribution of wealth. Now that might mean something different to you than it means to me. But I reckon we'd each be in the same ball park.

When a ceo earns the equivalent of the annual minimum wage every couple of hours and he has workers barely surviving doing double shifts then it's frankly immoral.

Wasn't there someone in the bible that started throwing things around in disgust in regard to the worship of money? And I'm sure there was something about a camel's eye as well.

From wiki: As of 2019, the top 10% of households held 70% of the country's wealth, while the bottom 50% held 2%. Who on earth could be happy with figures like that?
 
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iluvatar5150

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I don't see a solution there. The CEO-to-worker pay ratio is 58:1 at Amazon. Average wage is about $30k. Bezos wealth is 7 million times that figure. I'm not knocking the guy. I'm knocking a system that has figures like that there are simply incomprehensible. Messi earns that $30k every two hours.

It's frankly obscene. And your solution is 'don't covet your neighbour's...what? 200' yacht? The one with the helipad? While you're on food stamps and passing clothes down from child to child and working two jobs to earn enough for food for the week?

Something is seriously wrong. And accepting that is the first stage in fixing it.

Actually... Bezos' new yacht is over 400', but because it's a sailing yacht, it doesn't have a helipad. The helipad is on the accompanying support yacht. #nottheonion
Jeff Bezos’s New Superyacht Heralds Roaring Market for Big Boats


How does a company with 200,000 employees make any decisions when there iare 200,000 board members with equal say?

You know how elections work, right?
 
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morningstar2651

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How does a company with 200,000 employees make any decisions when there iare 200,000 board members with equal say?
Have you heard of this radical new invention called democracy?

The workers vote.
 
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hislegacy

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Have you heard of this radical new invention called democracy?

The workers vote.

Do you have any idea of how many decisions a board of directors and CEO's make a day? Can you picture Walmart having to get 1,300,000 employees to vote on every decision they make in their company?

Second example: Amazon - having to make a major decision on distribution methods (something they are consistently working on), such methods have direct effect on every one of the 798,000 employees. How do you educate 798,000 employees, get them the specifics and then have them vote? Mind you the cost would include the payroll it would take for 798,000 people to get up to speed on what it takes to make an informed decision.

It would be impossible to do it in a timely manner. The company would come to a standstill.

I don't believe it is a tenable argument for anything other than a single entity small company.
 
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iluvatar5150

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Do you have any idea of how many decisions a board of directors and CEO's make a day? Can you picture Walmart having to get 1,300,000 employees to vote on every decision they make in their company?

Second example: Amazon - having to make a major decision on distribution methods (something they are consistently working on), such methods have direct effect on every one of the 798,000 employees. How do you educate 798,000 employees, get them the specifics and then have them vote? Mind you the cost would include the payroll it would take for 798,000 people to get up to speed on what it takes to make an informed decision.

It would be impossible to do it in a timely manner. The company would come to a standstill.

I don't believe it is a tenable argument for anything other than a single entity small company.

Hey, look at that - somebody who doesn't understand how corporate boards work.

Boards aren't involved in the day-to-day operations of a company. Amazon's board met 6 times in 2019:
DEF 14A

And despite the logistical difficulties, Amazon (and most/all other publicly traded firms AFAIK) have annual shareholder meetings:
DEF 14A
 
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Ken-1122

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Yeah. That's my goal. That's why I'm explaining how it works to more people. It works really well and the success rate is on-par or better than the conventional firms you're probably used to in Capitalism.
Can you give an example of this actually happening?
 
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