Purgatory

Placemat · Jun 24, 2021

fide said:
I am very happy that you made this statement - it reveals a basic misunderstanding that allows me to open the right door of response to you. The key word, and misunderstanding, is the word "punishing." Purgatory is about purging - removing something impure, emptying out of something impure, for the sake of leaving only what is pure, holy, refined as pure gold fitting for self-offering to God.

When a loving parent decides "punishment" for his beloved child, is it to make the child suffer for the sake of pain, as if pain is a good thing, and to make the child suffer is "for his own good"? I say NO! The loving parent decides what is often called "punishment" NOT for the sake of inflicting suffering on the child, but to teach the child that his bad behavior was bad, and to point him to the good that ought to have been chosen by him. "Punishment" is to correct him, not to hurt him!

Purgatory is for purification, not "punishment": to purge the soul of all that is impure, selfish, temporal, worldly, unworthy of the eternal Beatitude of Heaven and the eternal communion in love with God the Holy Trinity, and all the Saints in Glory.

The OT speaks of this necessary purification in mystery - a truth to be revealed more clearly in the Spirit after the Church Age began. But it can be heard, for those having ears to hear:

Mal 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? "For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap;
Mal 3:3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD.
When this refining is not completed in one's lifetime, "purgatory" is enabled, by the Cross and Blood of Christ, for all whose names are written in the Book of Life.

A NT passage that is more explicit is:

1Cor 3:12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—
1Cor 3:13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
1Cor 3:14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
1Cor 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
We are saved for "good works" [Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.]. But if a man builds on the Foundation of Christ with impure works, of an impure heart, having mixed motives in his heart, NOT "gold, silver, precious stones" BUT RATHER "wood, hay, straw" (that is, perishable and "cheap" spiritual motives) then he will need purification if he keeps this impurity up to and into his death. "He himself will be saved" BUT "only as through fire" of refinement and purification. The impurity of soul will be "burned up" as "wood, hay, straw" would be - consumed - his soul left purified - by the "fires" of purgation.

Any 'purification' referred too in those verses does not have the same meaning that the Catholic church has developed and taught regarding their 'Purgatory' and all that goes with it; indulgences, special masses being performed, special prayers being said to Mary to shorten someone's stay. He is quite capable of doing this 'purification' in a blink of the eye if necessary.

fide · Jun 24, 2021

Albion said:
Choose another word if that offends you. "Phased out," perhaps. The fact remains that the church is dumping it, just as it did Limbo.

You need to first understand what and who the Church IS. Then, maybe you can discern what the actual Church actually teaches. May the Lord lead you to the truth (and He will, if you seek it.).

fide · Jun 24, 2021

Sheila Davis said:
As I said Faith in Jesus not purgatory - change my wording around any way you choose .... Nothing unclean into God's kingdom, purgatory is not necessary for cleansing that authority and power is given to Jesus .... Nowhere in scripture is it indicated that purgatory exist or is a part of God's plan for cleansing humans - the blood of Christ is the cleansing power, not of some sins but all sins for all names remain in the Lamb's Book of Life.
Fine - and you seem to believe in purgatory, fine for you - I don't. Thank you for your expressions - goodbye

And may you be with God, who will lead all searches and seekers to truth.

fide · Jun 24, 2021

Placemat said:
Any 'purification' referred too in those verses does not have the same meaning that the Catholic church has developed and taught regarding their 'Purgatory' and all that goes with it; indulgences, special masses being performed, special prayers being said to Mary to shorten someone's stay. He is quite capable of doing this 'purification' in a blink of the eye if necessary.

Feel free to let Him know this "blink of the eye" way of sanctification. He may be open to such alternate suggestions - and maybe not.

Valletta · Jun 24, 2021

Placemat said:
Any 'purification' referred too in those verses does not have the same meaning that the Catholic church has developed and taught regarding their 'Purgatory' and all that goes with it; indulgences, special masses being performed, special prayers being said to Mary to shorten someone's stay. He is quite capable of doing this 'purification' in a blink of the eye if necessary.

2 Maccabees 12:38–45 RSVCE
38 Then Judas assembled his army and went to the city of Adullam. As the seventh day was coming on, they purified themselves according to the custom, and they kept the sabbath there.
39 On the next day, as by that time it had become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kinsmen in the sepulchres of their fathers. 40 Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. 41 So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; 42 and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. 43 He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. 44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

Albion · Jun 24, 2021

fide said:
You need to first understand what and who the Church IS. Then, maybe you can discern what the actual Church actually teaches.

Unfortunately or fortunately, I do.

It is not the case, as so many seem to think, that no one can possibly know what the Roman Catholic Church believes, teaches, or does UNLESS he currently is a member of that denomination.

Placemat · Jun 24, 2021

Valletta said:
2 Maccabees 12:38–45 RSVCE
38 Then Judas assembled his army and went to the city of Adullam. As the seventh day was coming on, they purified themselves according to the custom, and they kept the sabbath there.
39 On the next day, as by that time it had become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kinsmen in the sepulchres of their fathers. 40 Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. 41 So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; 42 and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. 43 He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. 44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

How does this address my post?

Placemat · Jun 24, 2021

fide said:
Feel free to let Him know this "blink of the eye" way of sanctification. He may be open to such alternate suggestions - and maybe not.

As good as the developed idea(s) put forward by the Catholic church and their teaching on 'Purgatory'...or perhaps better, as mine is centred on God's ability to do so.
And since, as there is mention of Him actually going to be utilising this ability when He returns (in the blink of an eye), why not for our purification? So, not a 'suggestion' - but confidence of His ability to do so if He so chooses.

That my understanding of those verses you posted does not stand up to what and who you put your faith in, the Catholic church, reveals more about where you stand in Him than you are aware of.

Valletta · Jun 24, 2021

Placemat said:
As good as the developed idea(s) put forward by the Catholic church and their teaching on 'Purgatory'...or perhaps better, as mine is centred on God's ability to do so.
And since, as there is mention of Him actually going to be utilising this ability when He returns (in the blink of an eye), why not for our purification? So, not a 'suggestion' - but confidence of His ability to do so if He so chooses.

That my understanding of those verses you posted does not stand up to what and who you put your faith in, the Catholic church, reveals more about where you stand in Him than you are aware of.

Jesus remained Simon as Rock, gave Rock the keys to the kingdom, and built His Church upon Rock.
We each may either follow the teachings of Jesus or not. That God is all powerful and can do whatever He wishes in the blink of an eye is Catholic teaching.

Valletta · Jun 24, 2021

Albion said:
Unfortunately or fortunately, I do.

It is not the case, as so many seem to think, that no one can possibly know what the Roman Catholic Church believes, teaches, or does UNLESS he currently is a member of that denomination.

Catholic means "universal." Jesus founded one holy catholic and apostolic church.

Albion · Jun 24, 2021

Valletta said:
Jesus remained Simon as Rock, gave Rock the keys to the kingdom, and built His Church upon Rock.

Oh dear. You know that Peter and Rock are related words and that Jesus was making a little play on words there, right? 'Your name is Rocky and it's this rock that I'm counting on to be what I build with. Get it--build, rocks?'

None of that refers to making anyone a Pope.

Albion · Jun 24, 2021

Valletta said:
Catholic means "universal." Jesus founded one holy catholic and apostolic church.

Catholic means universal in the sense of authentic, not widespread.

That being the case, all sorts of churches have as much claim to the concept as the Church of Rome does.

fide · Jun 24, 2021

Albion said:
Unfortunately or fortunately, I do.

It is not the case, as so many seem to think, that no one can possibly know what the Roman Catholic Church believes, teaches, or does UNLESS he currently is a member of that denomination.

Actually it is the case. It is a necessary but not sufficient condition. A person outside of the Church - and even some inside - can know many things about the Church, but know nothing of substance of the Church. Just as a person can know many things about another couple's marriage, but know nothing of substance of it. The analogy is not accidental.

Albion · Jun 24, 2021

fide said:
Actually it is the case.

That, as a categorical statement, not only doesn't pass the smell test, but it's also illogical.

There are people here on CF who were Catholics and well trained in their faith for decades before converting to another church. They are often told off by people who only recently went through an inquirers' class and became members of the Catholic Church and who don't hesitate to say that they know all about their new church and the other people just cannot.

Usually, that comes after the convert's errors are brought to the surface during the discussion and is accompanied by some comment to the effect that everybody's out to "get" Catholics and misrepresent their beliefs.

Valletta · Jun 24, 2021

Albion said:
Catholic means universal in the sense of authentic, not widespread.

That being the case, all sorts of churches have as much claim to the concept as the Church of Rome does.

I don't know anything about the Church of Rome, but Jesus founded the Catholic Church.

Albion · Jun 24, 2021

Valletta said:
I don't know anything about the Church of Rome, but Jesus founded the Catholic Church.

He founded "his church," as he said. It was operating, as we know, before Peter ever got to Rome. And he also identified all the people who come to him as the ones he was counting on, referring to them as the household of his faith. That's right there in Scripture.

Placemat · Jun 24, 2021

Valletta said:
Jesus remained Simon as Rock, gave Rock the keys to the kingdom, and built His Church upon Rock.
We each may either follow the teachings of Jesus or not. That God is all powerful and can do whatever He wishes in the blink of an eye is Catholic teaching.

Except as another poster has pointed out...not when it comes to the Catholic church's teaching on 'Purgatory'...they alone offer various ways to lesson the number of days,weeks,months,years that they and their loved ones may have to spend suffering in 'Purgatory'. They admit to not knowing how long a person stays there, hence, this developed teaching that Catholics must accept, keeps them bound to the church out of nothing more than fear and uncertainty and places stumbling blocks in their way by promulgating and allowing practices (scapular wearing, indulgences, special masses...) that they claim will be of assistance in speeding up the 'process'.

fide · Jun 24, 2021

Albion said:
That, as a categorical statement, not only doesn't pass the smell test, but it's also illogical.

There are people here on CF who were Catholics and well trained in their faith for decades before converting to another church. They are often told off by people who only recently went through an inquirers' class and became members of the Catholic Church and who don't hesitate to say that they know all about their new church and the other people just cannot.

Usually, that comes after the convert's errors are brought to the surface during the discussion and is accompanied by some comment to the effect that everybody's out to "get" Catholics and misrepresent their beliefs.

Spiritual truth is supernatural, and very reasonable ("logical") when seen in the light of supernatural faith. And the fragrance of holy truth is very sweet and rich in delight.

Most non-Catholics who do misrepresent the Catholic Faith, do so not maliciously, but in sincere ignorance rooted in the absence of supernatural faith. Non-Catholics (and some in the institutional Catholic Church) are generally raised in and formed by modernism/nominalism, and try to fit Christianity into the narrow box of logic confined to the false and incomplete premise of "sola scriptura". (This is my analysis, offered at no charge, validated by my own history and experience as a former Catholic converted to evangelicalism who was led by the Lord, through Holy Scripture, to the authentic Catholic Church I had never before known.)

Goodhuman · Jun 25, 2021

Deleted.

Placemat · Jun 25, 2021

Albion said:
Choose another word if that offends you. "Phased out," perhaps. The fact remains that the church is dumping it, just as it did Limbo.

fide said:
You need to first understand what and who the Church IS. Then, maybe you can discern what the actual Church actually teaches. May the Lord lead you to the truth (and He will, if you seek it.).

Albion does have a point when it comes to the Catholic church's teaching on Limbo for unbaptised infants, as it was considered for centuries as the common teaching in schools, taught by nuns and priests and promulgated throughout that time by popes and theologians 'as if' it was His Truth...to the point of assigning their bodies to be buried in separate graveyards outside of what the church considered 'consecrated' ground, but even more disturbingly - banishing them from His 'beatific vision' for eternity. However, this teaching that Catholics for centuries believed, by placing their faith in the Catholic church, caused such distress that the church decided to 'phase it out', after alllllllll those centuries finally admitting that there was no evidence of it being a 'revealed TRUTH' and that it would now encourage Catholics to have HOPE in the mercy and love of God.

So please tell us just 'what and who' the Catholic church "IS".

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