Purgatory

[fide]

Then perhaps what 'she was given',as you put it, regarding Baptism, was misunderstood by her in the first place. If she was being led by the Holy Spirit when 'given the necessity of Baptism ' she would have understood it and defined it properly and would not have had to rely on the hypothetical theory of 'Limbo for infants who die without baptism' that was developed by men to uphold her incomplete 'defined' doctrine.

"Perhaps" - to use your word - the two of us can meet many such imperfect men in purgatory, where God will purge our souls of all imperfections.

 

[fide]

Yes, fumbled around for centuries - ranging from 'all the torments of Hell' to 'suffering, but not too much' to a kind of 'blissful ignorance'...then back to 'all the torments of Hell'.....then back to a kind of 'blissful ignorance'.....depending on different ideas of different men and on what 'heresy' they were attempting to combat at a particular time...but in all cases...depriving the infants of being with God. It was talked about in the odd Council....but then still allowed to be taught as their common teaching/doctrine 'as if' it were His Truth.....until they finally decided not teach it anymore. So no - no sympathy for those involved in the developing and approval of teaching this theory that was not HIS TRUTH.
That there is still no certain resolution is something that the church is stuck with due to their own formulation and defining of what 'Baptism' meant.
HOPE in a loving and merciful God should have been the church's first and only choice to offer His sheep....but apparently that never occurred to anyone for centuries....until now.....




But that is exactly what the Catholic church DID do and proceeded to shuffle unbaptised infants off to 'limbo' denying them God's beatific vision for eternity.



Yes, it is official, you can NOW hope in God because the Catholic church has given you permission.....there were many over the centuries and centuries who were not given that 'teaching' or 'opportunity'....the little graves in unconsecrated grounds attest to that fact.


Seriously!? If that were the case it would never have allowed a theory, based on the musings of men to be taught for all those years, a theory that dealt with the very salvation of souls....until....it wasn't taught anymore......

Do you pray the prayer given His Church by the Lord, that includes this: ?
"... And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us...."

God does not trespass. Not against the unbaptized infants - ever. Men can and do trespass. You can be sure that erroneous judgments of men do not supplant the perfect justice of God. In your harsh judgment of the Catholic Church, it seems you have "thrown out the baby with the bathwater" (figuratively speaking, with no baptismal pun intended).

BTW - I agree with you that much unnecessary anxiety was generated through many years by allowing a theological speculation to creep into catechesis. Many humble and simple faithful took the teaching as trustworthy, and became in some cases terrified that their child might die before he/she could be baptized. Many in the teaching office of the Church allowed this, and they should have been more careful for the hearts and souls of mothers especially, in this regard. All this is easy to say in retrospect, of course. I hope it will be a lesson for the future, for teachers and catechists and formators, to distinguish clearly what is true doctrine and what is speculation.

The justice - and thus goodness - of God's judgments is a certainty.

 

[Placemat]

"Perhaps" - to use your word - the two of us can meet many such imperfect men in purgatory, where God will purge our souls of all imperfections.

I have no idea how He will deal with those who fed His sheep nothing but the theories of men, based on their own speculations and neglected to feed them HOPE as they did so. Perhaps they will pass "GO" (supposed 'Purgatory') - not collect $200.00 (any rewards) - and end up in Jail (Hell) (figuratively speaking, with all 'Monopoly' pun intended)

 

[fide]

Hmmmm. "those who fed His sheep nothing but the theories of men..."

Thank you for sharing with me your judgments, based so heavily on your own opinions.

Comparison suggested.

 

[Placemat]

Do you pray the prayer given His Church by the Lord, that includes this: ?
"... And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us...."

Yes, I have.

God does not trespass. Not against the unbaptized infants - ever. Men can and do trespass. You can be sure that erroneous judgments of men do not supplant the perfect justice of God.

I’ve been assured of that for a very long time - and also of Him being a loving, merciful God; having placed my HOPE always in Him and Who He is.

In your harsh judgment of the Catholic Church, it seems you have "thrown out the baby with the bathwater" (figuratively speaking, with no baptismal pun intended).

Yes, an inappropriate choice of phrase to use - as it comes so close to what the church actually did with unbaptized infants - it may come across as a mawkish gibe to some.

BTW - I agree with you that much unnecessary anxiety was generated through many years by allowing a theological speculation to creep into catechesis. Many humble and simple faithful took the teaching as trustworthy, and became in some cases terrified that their child might die before he/she could be baptized. Many in the teaching office of the Church allowed this, and they should have been more careful for the hearts and souls of mothers especially, in this regard. All this is easy to say in retrospect, of course. I hope it will be a lesson for the future, for teachers and catechists and formators, to distinguish clearly what is true doctrine and what is speculation.

Well that would be nice.

In the meantime, it would be well advised for Catholics to test ALL the teachings that were developed and defined as being revealed ‘Truth’ from the beginning - just in case there are more teaching/common doctrines/practices - that have been based on nothing more than the theories of men and allowed to be taught by the Catholic church over the centuries.

The justice - and thus goodness - of God's judgments is a certainty.

As is the certainty of being able to have HOPE in the goodness of God Himself when we find ourselves without revealed answers.

 

[fide]

Yes, I have.


I’ve been assured of that for a very long time - and also of Him being a loving, merciful God; having placed my HOPE always in Him and Who He is.



Yes, an inappropriate choice of phrase to use - as it comes so close to what the church actually did with unbaptized infants - it may come across as a mawkish gibe to some.



Well that would be nice.

In the meantime, it would be well advised for Catholics to test ALL the teachings that were developed and defined as being revealed ‘Truth’ from the beginning - just in case there are more teaching/common doctrines/practices - that have been based on nothing more than the theories of men and allowed to be taught by the Catholic church over the centuries.



As is the certainty of being able to have HOPE in the goodness of God Himself when we find ourselves without revealed answers.

Now that you have the Church recovering from the Limbo error, I hope you will turn to protestantism's major embarrassment - rejection of whole volumes of crucial revealed truths of God. May you be as sensitive a critic on that defect, as on the other.

 

[Placemat]

Hmmmm. "those who fed His sheep nothing but the theories of men..."

Thank you for sharing with me your judgments, based so heavily on your own opinions.

Comparison suggested.

My opinions about 'nothing but the theories of men' can be compared to the statements throughout that document from the ITC on the Vatican website...idea(s), speculations, hypothetical possibility....all used in reference to the development of this theory.

Jesus told Peter to 'Feed His sheep' (para) - they were fed a theory - not of His making but of theirs- they did not feed them His Truth.

Peter on the other hand pointed them to HOPE, which is His Truth, and the first sentence in the 'Introduction' of that document quotes 1Peter 3: 15-16 and attests to it................finally....apparently it's just been 'developed' in recent decades....(now that's sad)

1. St Peter encourages Christians to be always ready to give an account of the hope that is in them (cf. 1 Pet 3:15-16).[1] This document deals with the hope that Christians can have for the salvation of unbaptised infants who die. It indicates how such a hope has developed in recent decades and what its grounds are, so as to enable an account of that hope to be given.

 

[Placemat]

Now that you have the Church recovering from the Limbo error, I hope you will turn to protestantism's major embarrassment - rejection of whole volumes of crucial revealed truths of God. May you be as sensitive a critic on that defect, as on the other.

Why would I do that in a thread about 'Purgatory' and the extended discussion about 'Limbo' ????

All churches make errors, however I don't believe there are any non-Catholic, Christian church's who self proclaim to be His 'one true church' that is supposedly confined to teaching only revealed truth, to have the sole authority and power as the original Apostles had over the churches they were establishing - to forgiving sins, binding and loosing, to being the only ones who are able to interpret scripture.....so when those kinds of claims are made, you expect the ones making those claims, especially when it comes to the salvation of souls, to be able to deliver.

 

[fide]

Why would I do that in a thread about 'Purgatory' and the extended discussion about 'Limbo' ????

All churches make errors, however I don't believe there are any non-Catholic, Christian church's who self proclaim to be His 'one true church' that is supposedly confined to teaching only revealed truth, to have the sole authority and power as the original Apostles had over the churches they were establishing - to forgiving sins, binding and loosing, to being the only ones who are able to interpret scripture.....so when those kinds of claims are made, you expect the ones making those claims, especially when it comes to the salvation of souls, to be able to deliver.

There's something you need to discover, about the one true church. It's not for me to explain it to you; it is for you to seek, so that He can show you.

 

[Placemat]

There's something you need to discover, about the one true church. It's not for me to explain it to you; it is for you to seek, so that He can show you.

I believe, by His mercy and grace He has already shown me and I am truly, humbled and forever grateful for that.

 

[fide]

I believe, by His mercy and grace He has already shown me and I am truly, humbled and forever grateful for that.

Rightful humility and gratitude are beautiful and virtuous gifts from God! But - a lesson we all must learn and never forget or presume upon is that we are disciples - learners - and the Teacher is a store of wisdom of infinite depth. Our journey to Truth, and to Holiness, is lifelong. We must never sit back - even in gratitude - with a premature sense of finality that we know all there is to know, or all that God want us to know, of Him and of ourselves. My point is simply, none of us knows what we do not know. Tomorrow may be very different from today.

 

[Placemat]

Rightful humility and gratitude are beautiful and virtuous gifts from God! But - a lesson we all must learn and never forget or presume upon is that we are disciples - learners - and the Teacher is a store of wisdom of infinite depth. Our journey to Truth, and to Holiness, is lifelong. We must never sit back - even in gratitude - with a premature sense of finality that we know all there is to know, or all that God want us to know, of Him and of ourselves.

Yes, we may be able to fool people some of the time and even ourselves, but we cannot fool God, as He knows our deepest thoughts and motives for everything we say and do. Any confidence or assurance of where we are on our walk with Him, is out of the surety of Who He is and should not ever be confused with a complacency that we know it all, but with the realisation of how little we know and a hunger and desire to continue on and keep learning.

My point is simply, none of us knows what we do not know. Tomorrow may be very different from today.

The difficult part at times, is admitting that 'we simply don't know' and to leave it with Him and to put our trust and faith in Him and truly believe that He and His promises never change and are forever.

1 Cor 1:
30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”

 

[concretecamper]

Rightful humility and gratitude are beautiful and virtuous gifts from God! But - a lesson we all must learn and never forget or presume upon is that we are disciples - learners - and the Teacher is a store of wisdom of infinite depth. Our journey to Truth, and to Holiness, is lifelong. We must never sit back - even in gratitude - with a premature sense of finality that we know all there is to know, or all that God want us to know, of Him and of ourselves. My point is simply, none of us knows what we do not know. Tomorrow may be very different from today.

First, I agree that we all must continue continue to grow in holiness. But I dont think we ourselve can define what holiness is. We also are not able to say we are on the right path.

Christ established the Church to offer the gift of Salvation to the most unlearned of men. One doesnt need to be a scripture scholar or be learned to know what God wants.

Following the Church's teachings, engaging in her devotions, working on the corporal and spiritual works of mercy, listening to the gospel of Christ and letting it take root in our live all lead us to know Him. All this happens within His Church and the level of our intelligence is irrelevant.

Think about it. For the first 1800 years of the Church 95% of people were illiterate. God saved many souls who couldnt read His Word or couldn't contemplate philosophy. But they were faithful members of His Church.

 

[fide]

First, I agree that we all must continue continue to grow in holiness. But I dont think we ourselve can define what holiness is. We also are not able to say we are on the right path.

Christ established the Church to offer the gift of Salvation to the most unlearned of men. One doesnt need to be a scripture scholar or be learned to know what God wants.

Following the Church's teachings, engaging in her devotions, working on the corporal and spiritual works of mercy, listening to the gospel of Christ and letting it take root in our live all lead us to know Him. All this happens within His Church and the level of our intelligence is irrelevant.

Think about it. For the first 1800 years of the Church 95% of people were illiterate. God saved many souls who couldnt read His Word or couldn't contemplate philosophy. But they were faithful members of His Church.

Hello, concrete camper. Thanks for you comments. I'm sorry if my post led you to think I was claiming that we all need to become Scripture scholars! That was not my intention, at all. Rather, I urge all who will listen, that we need to find our home in His Word - not that we need to become academics concerned about the Word, but disciples striving to remain, to dwell, to live in the Word.

Jn 8:31 Jesus then said to those Jews who believed in him, “If you remain in my word, you will truly be my disciples,
32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”​

And again:

Jn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
...
Jn 15:6 If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.
Jn 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you.​

We come to know Him - Who IS the Word, in His words. Faith comes through hearing (as in words) (Rom 10).

We come to know holiness through the Spirit, who teaches those who lave learned to listen rightly. Jesus defines holiness - He IS holiness - and we come into holiness to the degree that we participate in Him, in His holiness. We learn this - the path to holiness - through the great teachers of sanctification we have been blessed to have in the Church: John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Bernard of Clairvaux to name a few. We have many many saints of the Church who have shared holy wisdom with us, who will seek it. This does not require "scholarship" in an academic sense, but earnest discipleship: living as a learner, seeking the things of God.

 

[fide]

I believe, by His mercy and grace He has already shown me and I am truly, humbled and forever grateful for that.

He may have shown you much more than you have allowed yourself to see, dear sister. You seem so intensely holding tight to the issue of "limbo" - a teaching not of the Church universal but a theological speculation that overreached its proper bounds - that nothing else can find a place in your hands, or your heart. Beware of the lesson of some in the time of Jesus, who were obsessed with straining out gnats, but meanwhile were swallowing camels.
"You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!" (Mt 23:24)

Leave "limbo" in the past! Forgive those teachers in the Church who spoke beyond proper limits! Look to the saints in His Church who can point us in true wisdom in Jesus, in His holiness, His life.

 

[concretecamper]

Hello, concrete camper. Thanks for you comments. I'm sorry if my post led you to think I was claiming that we all need to become Scripture scholars! That was not my intention, at all. Rather, I urge all who will listen, that we need to find our home in His Word - not that we need to become academics concerned about the Word, but disciples striving to remain, to dwell, to live in the Word.
Jn 8:31 Jesus then said to those Jews who believed in him, “If you remain in my word, you will truly be my disciples,
32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”And again:
Jn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
...
Jn 15:6 If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.
Jn 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you.We come to know Him - Who IS the Word, in His words. Faith comes through hearing (as in words) (Rom 10).

Unless you define what living in His Word is, there will be many interpretations of what that means. The Word IS Christ. And as we learn in Acts, Christ and His Church are One. To be One with Christ is to be One with His Church.

We come to know holiness through the Spirit, who teaches those who lave learned to listen rightly. Jesus defines holiness - He IS holiness - and we come into holiness to the degree that we participate in Him, in His holiness

I see this as too general an explanation. Yes, we come to know holiness through the spirit. However, you must also explain that sanctifying grace is necessary. The sanctifying grace recieved from the Holy Spirit through the sacraments leads us to the holiness you describe.

learn this - the path to holiness - through the great teachers of sanctification we have been blessed to have in the Church: John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Bernard of Clairvaux to name a few.

These great teachers are a blessing and great examples. But I would argue not required for one to achieve holiness.

We have many many saints of the Church who have shared holy wisdom with us, who will seek it. This does not require "scholarship" in an academic sense, but earnest discipleship: living as a learner, seeking the things of God

yes they are a blessing indeed.

 

[fide]

I see this as too general an explanation. Yes, we come to know holiness through the spirit. However, you must also explain that sanctifying grace is necessary. The sanctifying grace recieved from the Holy Spirit through the sacraments leads us to the holiness you describe.

A man who has come to know holiness through the Spirit could (in principle) write books of words attempting to be more specific about what is meant by holiness - and his explanation would still be incomplete, "too general", raise more questions, and lead to disagreements. Holiness is a supernatural reality that is not ever adequately described in words or ideas or images, all of which operate in the natural sphere, all of which are confined to the natural sphere. The supernatural can never be condensed into the natural, the natural can only and at best point to the horizon - beyond which is the supernatural.

Even the sacraments are not in themselves enough, as you probably know. The sacraments must be received in right disposition, to bear their intended fruit in the recipient.

Catechism 1098 - The assembly should prepare itself to encounter its Lord and to become “a people well disposed.” The preparation of hearts is the joint work of the Holy Spirit and the assembly, especially of its ministers. The grace of the Holy Spirit seeks to awaken faith, conversion of heart, and adherence to the Father’s will. These dispositions are the precondition both for the reception of other graces conferred in the celebration itself and the fruits of new life which the celebration is intended to produce afterward.

1133 The Holy Spirit prepares the faithful for the sacraments by the Word of God and the faith which welcomes that word in well-disposed hearts. Thus the sacraments strengthen faith and express it.

An interesting essay on this matter is here, in Homiletic & Pastoral Review online:
Lest They Receive it in Vain.

 

[concretecamper]

A man who has come to know holiness through the Spirit could (in principle) write books of words attempting to be more specific about what is meant by holiness - and his explanation would still be incomplete, "too general", raise more questions, and lead to disagreements.

Maybe we are looking at holiness differently. Holiness is nothing other than living in the Divine Will (easy to say I know). Holiness is not lofty contemplations of God, it is not the crafting of thoughtful prayers. These may be the fruits of holiness and one may be inspired to accomplish such works. Holiness is not a self defined state where I can say that I am doing what I think one needs to do.

My point about sanctifying grace is that for any of our acts to be beneficial to our soul, we must be in a state of grace. Take for example this Dogma: For every salutary act, internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary. The Sacraments are conduits for this Sanctifying Grace. When talking about holiness, one cannot forget Sanctifying Grace.

 

[Placemat]

He may have shown you much more than you have allowed yourself to see, dear sister. You seem so intensely holding tight to the issue of "limbo" - a teaching not of the Church universal but a theological speculation that overreached its proper bounds - that nothing else can find a place in your hands, or your heart.

It is you that has brought up "limbo" once again - not me - but I am glad that it is apparently still on your mind as that indicates you are thinking about it. As to your opinion with regards to what is in my hands and my heart, please be rest assured that His Truth is there.

Beware of the lesson of some in the time of Jesus, who were obsessed with straining out gnats, but meanwhile were swallowing camels.
"You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!" (Mt 23:24)

It seems that His Truth;the Apostle's teachings about the very salvation of souls vs the Catholic church's dubious teaching about the very salvation of souls means little to you.

Jesus was very specific when rebuking the teachers of the Law and the Pharisees (your comparison is noted) throughout that whole chapter of Matthew and makes quite a list of what He was referring too, including a verse that closely resembles the Catholic church's teaching regarding the limbo of infants who were unbaptised :

Mt 23:13
13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees ,hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

Leave "limbo" in the past!

I repeat, you are the one that brought it up again.

Forgive those teachers in the Church who spoke beyond proper limits!

What a presumptuous statement.

Look to the saints in His Church who can point us in true wisdom in Jesus, in His holiness, His life.

I have and I continue to do that-the Apostles, in this case Paul:

1 Cor 1:
30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”

 

[fide]

It is you that has brought up "limbo" once again - not me - but I am glad that it is apparently still on your mind as that indicates you are thinking about it. As to your opinion with regards to what is in my hands and my heart, please be rest assured that His Truth is there.



It seems that His Truth;the Apostle's teachings about the very salvation of souls vs the Catholic church's dubious teaching about the very salvation of souls means little to you.

Jesus was very specific when rebuking the teachers of the Law and the Pharisees (your comparison is noted) throughout that whole chapter of Matthew and makes quite a list of what He was referring too, including a verse that closely resembles the Catholic church's teaching regarding the limbo of infants who were unbaptised :

Mt 23:13
13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees ,hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.




I repeat, you are the one that brought it up again.

What a presumptuous statement.


I have and I continue to do that-the Apostles, in this case Paul:

1 Cor 1:
30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”

I leave you to your own thoughts.