20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

Status
Not open for further replies.

Freedm

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2020
740
172
42
Austin TX
✟40,387.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
What God thinks is what matters. Just because some people didn't recognize that the old covenant law was made obsolete by Christ doesn't mean the old covenant law was still in effect. God decides if it's in effect or not, not man.
Fine, but why are you not addressing Hebrews 8:13?

By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

What did Paul mean by "soon disappear"?
 
Upvote 0

Freedm

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2020
740
172
42
Austin TX
✟40,387.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Please look back on the biblical evidence we have presented rather than defaulting to what you have been taught. The old died when Christ died. The new replaced it. The Scriptures testify (before AD70) that the old covenant sacrificial system is “that which is done away” (2 Corinthians 3:11) and “that which is abolished” (2 Corinthians 3:13). It makes clear: “the old testament … vail is done away in Christ" (2 Corinthians 3:14). Hebrews 10:9 confirms: “He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” Hebrews 10:2 confirms they “ceased to be offered.”
I understand all of that but there are other passages, such as Hebrews 8:13 which tell us the old covenant was not yet done away with. Why don't you reconcile that statement by Paul with all the other verses you cite?

By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
 
Upvote 0

Freedm

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2020
740
172
42
Austin TX
✟40,387.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Maybe not in that passage but he certainly implied it here:

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
Not at all. This verse you quote also totally supports my position. As soon as you are away from the body, you're at home with the Lord. This is the instant resurrection.
 
Upvote 0

Freedm

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2020
740
172
42
Austin TX
✟40,387.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Obviously, unless Christ returns first, we will die physically, so He's not talking about never seeing death in any sense. He's talking about never experiencing the second death there since only unbelievers will experience the second death when they are cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14-15).
No, he's talking about never experiencing the state of death. Yes, this body dies but we will go immediately from this life to the next, meaning we never experience the state of death, as in sleeping in the earth like the OT saints. Those people actually experienced death. We never will.
 
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
9,042
3,450
USA
Visit site
✟202,684.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I understand all of that but there are other passages, such as Hebrews 8:13 which tell us the old covenant was not yet done away with. Why don't you reconcile that statement by Paul with all the other verses you cite?

By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

I have already adequately addressed this. Even though a corpse may look asleep it is lifeless. All you have is rotting flesh. Decomposition has set in immediately. It is gradually decaying, and will ultimately vanish away. But that entity has no further earthly use. Its time is up.

A corpse does not normally vanish from sight immediately upon death until it is put into the grave and buried. But corruption, decay, degeneration has already kicked in. It is lifeless. It is powerless. It has no function. That is how the old covenant was between AD30 and AD70.

Preterists can do their best to beautify this deceased corpse, they can try their best to raise its lifeless carcass from the dead, and they can attribute life to it all they want, but it is all in vain, it is still a dead corpse.

As Clement said in his Recognitions (Chapter 64): “For we have ascertained beyond doubt that God is much rather displeased with the sacrifices which you offer, the time of sacrifices having now passed away; and because ye will not acknowledge that the time for offering victims is now past, therefore the temple shall be destroyed.”

There cannot be 2 covenants ongoing at the one time. That is absurd! One terminated the other. There cannot be 2 competing priesthoods. One replaced the other.

The book of Hebrews destroys any notion of the continuation of the old covenant priests. It is quite inconceivable that this defunct priesthood would be needed after the commencement of God's true eternal priesthood. Hebrews 7:19 tells us: “the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.” Christ owns the only priestly office that God recognises for all eternity. Hebrews 7:22 confirms, “By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.” For he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises (Hebrews 8:6).

Remember, Hebrews was written in-between the cross and AD70!

We have entered into a new divine arrangement that supersedes the shadow, type and figure. Man has one true heavenly high priest and requires none other. For you to argue for two competing priesthood underlines the dangers of your teaching.
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: Spiritual Jew
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Not at all. This verse you quote also totally supports my position. As soon as you are away from the body, you're at home with the Lord. This is the instant resurrection.
You're adding something that isn't in the text. It says to be apart from the body (the mortal body like you and I have now) means to be present with the Lord. It doesn't say anything about being resurrected there. Do you not acknowledge that we also have a soul and spirit and not just a body? Where does scripture teach that we can't exist without a body, as you seem to believe? Do angels have bodies? No. They are spirit beings. That shows that you don't need a body to be alive.
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,728
2,493
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟294,035.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Of course He could if He wanted to, but scripture teaches that the bodies of all believers will be changed at the same time which will be when the last trumpet sounds at Christ's second coming. The bottom line here is that you are not accepting what Paul taught in passages like 1 Corinthians 15:22-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. Those all teach that all of the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the same time.
ALL the dead Christians won't be raised when Jesus Returns. Paul does not say that.
Revelation 20:4-5 plainly states that only the martyrs killed during the 42 month of world control by Satan, will have their souls brought back with Him. The rest of the dead await the GWT Judgment, AFTER the Millennium.
The Last trumpet is sounded then.
there is absolutely no indication that John saw ghostly entities without bodies. It tells us only that he saw individuals, but because they were in heaven, logic tell us they would have had to have had their heavenly / spiritual bodies.
No, their souls will be kept under the Altar in heaven, along with all the other martyrs since Stephen.
No one receives a spiritual body, that is; immortality until their name is found in the Book of Life, opened at the GWT Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Fine, but why are you not addressing Hebrews 8:13?

By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

What did Paul mean by "soon disappear"?
I have addressed that, but you apparently missed it. I said before that to be obsolete means it was made to be useless and no longer in effect. And I said that it was only the traces of it (the temple was still standing) that were to soon disappear. Just because the temple was still standing doesn't mean the old covenant was still in effect. The fact that it was already obsolete means the old covenant was no longer in effect. That's what you're not getting.
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
ALL the dead Christians won't be raised when Jesus Returns. Paul does not say that.

Revelation 20:4-5 plainly states that only the martyrs killed during the 42 month of world control by Satan, will have their souls brought back with Him. The rest of the dead await the GWT Judgment, AFTER the Millennium.
The Last trumpet is sounded then.
Yes, you have given me your interpretation on this several times now. And I still disagree. Paul said we will ALL be changed at the last trumpet and that includes those who are dead and those who are still alive at the time.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Paul made it clear that all Christians, dead and alive, will be changed at the same time. That can only happen if all of the dead in Christ are raised at the same time, but your doctrine contradicts that. Your lack of understanding that Christ will return at the last trumpet is what prevents you from seeing the truth of this matter.
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No, he's talking about never experiencing the state of death. Yes, this body dies but we will go immediately from this life to the next, meaning we never experience the state of death, as in sleeping in the earth like the OT saints. Those people actually experienced death. We never will.
You are contradicting this verse:

Hebrews 9:27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment...

You acknowledge that our body will die, but then try to say we never experience the state of death? That makes no sense. Of course we experience physical death in that case, but our souls and spirits never die. Instead, they go to be with the Lord (if you're a believer) because, as Paul said in 2 Cor 5:6-8, to be absent from the body (because of the body being dead) is to be present with the Lord (our souls and spirits).

You're just taking the statement that we will never die too literally here. That doesn't apply to our mortal bodies. The sense in which we will never die is in the fact that we (believers) won't experience the second death by being cast into the lake of fire.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
11,844
1,311
sg
✟217,841.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
We don't need pastors to teach us that. The Holy Spirit can teach us that directly and we can learn that through reading God's Word for ourselves. I don't know the Lord because of anything a pastor taught me.

You may not need, but would you say for the majority of the Christians, they actually read their Bibles?
 
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
9,042
3,450
USA
Visit site
✟202,684.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So someone forgot to inform James of that in Acts 21:18-25?

The Jewish leader leaders forced Paul to go to the temple to prove his Jewish credentials. This was not voluntary. He did it under duress. It clearly was a sop to the Christ-rejecting Jews.

There was a religious / political aspect to the sacrifices that all Israelis were bound to as Jews in order to maintain their Jewish privileges. I believe Paul yielded to the political requirements - in honouring the God-ordained authorities - but he made no spiritual submission to these abolished rites. I don't believe he recognised the expiatory significance of the sacrifices, as he finally released himself from the religious Judaic baggage he was bound with. He would not have recognised the intercession of the high priest with God for the people because he had a real, perfect and eternal great High Priest (Hebrews 5:6, 9, Hebrews 4:14).

Jennings' Jewish Antiguities, p. 17 says of Acts 21:26: "there was a political as well as a typical use of sacrifices; and that, though the typical ceased upon the sacrifice of Christ, yet the political continued until God in his providence broke up the Jewish state and polity about forty years after our Savior's death. Till that time it was not merely lawful, but matter of duty, for good subjects to pay the dues which were appointed by law for the support of the government and magistracy. Now, of this kind was the sacrifice which Paul offered; and in this view they were paid by Christians dwelling in Judea, as well as by those who still adhered to the Jewish religion. So that, upon the whole, this action, for which Paul has been so much censured, probably amounts to nothing more than paying the tribute due to the magistrate by law, which the apostle enjoins upon all other Christians in all other nations, Romans 13:6."

We do not know the motive for Paul going into the temple at this time, or if he in fact actually made a blood offering. It could have been legally required to maintain his citizenship. It could thus have been a sop to the religious authorities, albeit not in any way he believed that there was any spiritual purpose or efficacy in the rite. Of course there is the possibility that it was an imprudent compromise on Paul’s part. He may have meant well, participating in this solely to get an opportunity to preach in the temple. We just don’t know. However, we definitely cannot build a doctrine upon silence, especially when the New Testament is very clear that Christ’s sacrifice was the final sacrifice for sin forever.

The one thing we do know that not long after this incident Christ eradicated the whole Judaic sacrifice system through the destruction of the temple, proving that this system was over forever. It was impossible for this system to survive the destruction of its ceremonial centre of operations. This reinforces the belief that this arrangement was now considered rebellious, pointless and redundant with the arrival of the new covenant and Christ’s final sacrifice for sin.

Please list where Paul (or any other disciples) partook in animal sacrifices after conversion? Every time they went to the temple it was for the sole purpose of presenting Christ and exposing the error of the then Christless Crossless Jewish religion. There is nowhere in Acts 21 that suggests Paul engaged in animal sacrifices or the abolished rites. Many Dispy theories are based upon pure speculation. In fact, it doesn't even mention the feast that he attended in the chapter. Even if Paul attended a festival, it was for the sole purpose of preaching the Cross.
 
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
11,844
1,311
sg
✟217,841.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Jewish leader leaders forced Paul to go to the temple to prove his Jewish credentials. This was not voluntary. He did it under duress. It clearly was a sop to the Christ-rejecting Jews.

There was a religious / political aspect to the sacrifices that all Israelis were bound to as Jews in order to maintain their Jewish privileges. I believe Paul yielded to the political requirements - in honouring the God-ordained authorities - but he made no spiritual submission to these abolished rites. I don't believe he recognised the expiatory significance of the sacrifices, as he finally released himself from the religious Judaic baggage he was bound with. He would not have recognised the intercession of the high priest with God for the people because he had a real, perfect and eternal great High Priest (Hebrews 5:6, 9, Hebrews 4:14).

Jennings' Jewish Antiguities, p. 17 says of Acts 21:26: "there was a political as well as a typical use of sacrifices; and that, though the typical ceased upon the sacrifice of Christ, yet the political continued until God in his providence broke up the Jewish state and polity about forty years after our Savior's death. Till that time it was not merely lawful, but matter of duty, for good subjects to pay the dues which were appointed by law for the support of the government and magistracy. Now, of this kind was the sacrifice which Paul offered; and in this view they were paid by Christians dwelling in Judea, as well as by those who still adhered to the Jewish religion. So that, upon the whole, this action, for which Paul has been so much censured, probably amounts to nothing more than paying the tribute due to the magistrate by law, which the apostle enjoins upon all other Christians in all other nations, Romans 13:6."

We do not know the motive for Paul going into the temple at this time, or if he in fact actually made a blood offering. It could have been legally required to maintain his citizenship. It could thus have been a sop to the religious authorities, albeit not in any way he believed that there was any spiritual purpose or efficacy in the rite. Of course there is the possibility that it was an imprudent compromise on Paul’s part. He may have meant well, participating in this solely to get an opportunity to preach in the temple. We just don’t know. However, we definitely cannot build a doctrine upon silence, especially when the New Testament is very clear that Christ’s sacrifice was the final sacrifice for sin forever.

The one thing we do know that not long after this incident Christ eradicated the whole Judaic sacrifice system through the destruction of the temple, proving that this system was over forever. It was impossible for this system to survive the destruction of its ceremonial centre of operations. This reinforces the belief that this arrangement was now considered rebellious, pointless and redundant with the arrival of the new covenant and Christ’s final sacrifice for sin.

Please list where Paul (or any other disciples) partook in animal sacrifices after conversion? Every time they went to the temple it was for the sole purpose of presenting Christ and exposing the error of the then Christless Crossless Jewish religion. There is nowhere in Acts 21 that suggests Paul engaged in animal sacrifices or the abolished rites. Many Dispy theories are based upon pure speculation. In fact, it doesn't even mention the feast that he attended in the chapter. Even if Paul attended a festival, it was for the sole purpose of preaching the Cross.

Why do people keep mentioning Paul when I am talking about James?
 
Upvote 0

Freedm

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2020
740
172
42
Austin TX
✟40,387.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
You're adding something that isn't in the text. It says to be apart from the body (the mortal body like you and I have now) means to be present with the Lord. It doesn't say anything about being resurrected there. Do you not acknowledge that we also have a soul and spirit and not just a body?
Your understanding of soul and spirit is fantasy. The Bible does not teach that we have a self conscious ghostly entity that lives inside our bodies and leaves our bodies when our bodies die. That is not scriptural. That's the stuff of Hollywood.

Where does scripture teach that we can't exist without a body, as you seem to believe? Do angels have bodies? No. They are spirit beings. That shows that you don't need a body to be alive.
Of course angels have bodies. They have spiritual bodies.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Freedm

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2020
740
172
42
Austin TX
✟40,387.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
I have addressed that, but you apparently missed it. I said before that to be obsolete means it was made to be useless and no longer in effect. And I said that it was only the traces of it (the temple was still standing) that were to soon disappear. Just because the temple was still standing doesn't mean the old covenant was still in effect. The fact that it was already obsolete means the old covenant was no longer in effect. That's what you're not getting.
The way you explain it, it makes me question why then Paul would mention it at all. If it was completely irrelevant, why would he bother to tell us that it would soon disappear?
 
Upvote 0

Freedm

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2020
740
172
42
Austin TX
✟40,387.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
You are contradicting this verse:

Hebrews 9:27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment...

You acknowledge that our body will die, but then try to say we never experience the state of death? That makes no sense.
Take it up with Jesus. He said we will never die.
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,728
2,493
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟294,035.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
I have addressed that, but you apparently missed it. I said before that to be obsolete means it was made to be useless and no longer in effect. And I said that it was only the traces of it (the temple was still standing) that were to soon disappear. Just because the temple was still standing doesn't mean the old covenant was still in effect. The fact that it was already obsolete means the old covenant was no longer in effect. That's what you're not getting.
I did not 'miss' your reply.
My point is that the old Covenant has gone, but the new Covenant is yet to be made between His faithful Christian people, after they have gone to live in the holy Land. Ezekiel 34:25, Isaiah 61:8, Isaiah 59:20-21, Ezekiel 37:26
Paul said we will ALL be changed at the last trumpet and that includes those who are dead and those who are still alive at the time.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Paul was prophesying about the final Judgment, the GWT; after the Millennium. NOT about the Return of Jesus.
Proved by the fact that only then will Death be no more. Rev 21:4

The idea of a general resurrection at the Return, is not stated in other verses about the Return and is simply not possible before any Judgment.
 
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
11,844
1,311
sg
✟217,841.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The way you explain it, it makes me question why then Paul would mention it at all. If it was completely irrelevant, why would he bother to tell us that it would soon disappear?

The Old Covenant of Law only started for Israel at Exodus 24. Israel the nation needed to acknowledge that they would obey the conditions stipulated in that covenant.

7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient.

8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words.

So for the New Covenant, as stated clearly in Hebrews 8, the entire nation of Israel will similarly have to acknowledge the conditions stipulated in the New Covenant, that is to believe Jesus is the Christ, the promised Son of God (John 20:31), before that New Covenant could begin for them.

As far as Acts tells us, the nation's leaders, the Sanhedrin, prefer to stone Stephen, so they have rejected Christ. So currently, the New Covenant has not begun for the House of Israel.

And no, we in the Body of Christ do not get the opportunity to insert ourselves into Hebrews 8:8, and call ourselves Israel, in order to accept the New Covenant on their behalf.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,728
2,493
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟294,035.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
And no, we in the Body of Christ do not get the opportunity to insert ourselves into Hebrews 8:8, and call ourselves Israel, in order to accept the New Covenant on their behalf.
You have a lot right, Guojing, but in sticking to an ethnic Israel, is where you are wrong.
The New Testament teaching about this is perfectly clear; ethnicity has no bearing on who are the Israelites of God. Faith and trust in Jesus is the ONLY criteria. Ephesians 2:11-18, John 10:1-27
It will be the Lord's faithful 'sheep', who will occupy all of the holy Land in the end times. Ezekiel 34:11-16
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Freedm
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.