20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

[Guojing]

Do you need a pastor to read your Bible for you and tell you what it's saying? I'm simply telling you that you don't need a pastor to teach you because we have the Holy Spirit in us and we have God's Word available to us. Do you disagree?

You are changing the meaning of what Hebrews 8:11 actually says.

Pastors are still needed now for SOMEONE, maybe not you. Would you agree with that?

 

[Timtofly]

Of course He could if He wanted to, but scripture teaches that the bodies of all believers will be changed at the same time which will be when the last trumpet sounds at Christ's second coming. The bottom line here is that you are not accepting what Paul taught in passages like 1 Corinthians 15:22-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. Those all teach that all of the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the same time.

No, Paul said the dead, those not in their spiritual body, will be resurrected. That body is the permanent incorruptible body.

 

[Guojing]

Do you take these verses literally?

Mark 9:47 - And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,
​

I will just take this example. Jesus meant this literally but he was speaking to Israel, not us. You must learn how to rightly divide the word of truth

When Jesus was walking on Earth, he had the sign gift of healing. He could heal all who came to him (Acts 10:38) He used this sign gift to testify to doubting John the Baptist that he was indeed their promised Messiah (Luke 7:22)

When Jesus was preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom to the Jews, in order for the Jews to be saved, they had to believe in him as their promised Messiah AND keep the law (Matt 5:19-20)

So his main point to the Jews in that teaching then was this, "If having 2 eyes means you have to break some part of the law, such as the law against looking at a woman in lust as I have explained, its better for you to cut one off and just make it into the Kingdom by the skin of your teeth. Once you made it, I as your promised King can easily restore both your eyes once again."

 

[Guojing]

You have obviously no answer. I will take your avoidance as an admission they are watertight.

You are free to think whatever you want

 

[Timtofly]

I have already adequately addressed this. Even though a corpse may look asleep it is lifeless. All you have is rotting flesh. Decomposition has set in immediately. It is gradually decaying, and will ultimately vanish away. But that entity has no further earthly use. Its time is up.

A corpse does not normally vanish from sight immediately upon death until it is put into the grave and buried. But corruption, decay, degeneration has already kicked in. It is lifeless. It is powerless. It has no function. That is how the old covenant was between AD30 and AD70.

Preterists can do their best to beautify this deceased corpse, they can try their best to raise its lifeless carcass from the dead, and they can attribute life to it all they want, but it is all in vain, it is still a dead corpse.

As Clement said in his Recognitions (Chapter 64): “For we have ascertained beyond doubt that God is much rather displeased with the sacrifices which you offer, the time of sacrifices having now passed away; and because ye will not acknowledge that the time for offering victims is now past, therefore the temple shall be destroyed.”

There cannot be 2 covenants ongoing at the one time. That is absurd! One terminated the other. There cannot be 2 competing priesthoods. One replaced the other.

The book of Hebrews destroys any notion of the continuation of the old covenant priests. It is quite inconceivable that this defunct priesthood would be needed after the commencement of God's true eternal priesthood. Hebrews 7:19 tells us: “the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.” Christ owns the only priestly office that God recognises for all eternity. Hebrews 7:22 confirms, “By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.” For “he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises” (Hebrews 8:6).

Remember, Hebrews was written in-between the cross and AD70!

We have entered into a new divine arrangement that supersedes the shadow, type and figure. Man has one true heavenly high priest and requires none other. For you to argue for two competing priesthood underlines the dangers of your teaching.

You are the one claiming this dead body will have life again.

Some of us see this body as totally gone. Back to dust never to see life again.

 

[Timtofly]

You're adding something that isn't in the text. It says to be apart from the body (the mortal body like you and I have now) means to be present with the Lord. It doesn't say anything about being resurrected there. Do you not acknowledge that we also have a soul and spirit and not just a body? Where does scripture teach that we can't exist without a body, as you seem to believe? Do angels have bodies? No. They are spirit beings. That shows that you don't need a body to be alive.

Angels have physical bodies that are heavenly. An angel can also take on the form of human physical flesh. That their bodies are physical makes that possible.

 

[Timtofly]

Revelation 6:9 and Revelation 20:4 is not fantasy. John said that he saw the souls of physically dead people in heaven. I'm going to side with John.

He certainly did not see their dead bodies. So is a body a robe?

 

[Timtofly]

Um...actually God did institute the religion of Judaism when he gave them the law. That was literally their religion.

It was not a religion. It was an economy within a covenant. A religion is man made, with man made gods. Judaism came way after Babylon, and God stopped revealing Himself through the prophets.

 

[ShineyDays2]

I will just take this example. [of Mark 9:47

What does Mark 9:47 really mean?

Let me ask you this question about your beliefs about Mark 9:47 (assuming you hold to dispensational/premil views)....

"Have you ever seen someone, or know of someone, who has who has taken this verse "literally" and has actually cut their eyes out and never sinned again by doing so?"​

I don't think so! Why? Because doing so does not prevent ANYONE from ever sinning again. If you took this "symbolic" language seriously and did cut out one eye, you still have one eye left to succumb to "lusting after" sinful things like inappropriate contentography for example.

Mutilating the physical body does not keep anyone from sinning with our lives, hands, or feet anymore than taking the verse seriously about picking up venomous snakes without being bitten by them. Neither can you show us that Jesus encouraged physical maiming of the body anywhere in scripture. In fact scriptures says that "our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit" (1Co 6:19) and that we are to treat it as such.

In that verse Jesus is conveying that we should take practical—if not quite so extreme—measures to avoid sin. We will always face people with more money, more popularity, more possessions, and better looks than us. We particularly need God's help to overcome sins of the mind. In modern times, a corollary of "cutting out one eye" could be limiting internet access. Internet inappropriate contentography is a serious problem with non-Christians and Christ-followers alike.

 

[Guojing]

What does Mark 9:47 really mean?

Let me ask you this question about your beliefs about Mark 9:47 (assuming you hold to dispensational/premil views)....

"Have you ever seen someone, or know of someone, who has who has taken this verse "literally" and has actually cut their eyes out and never sinned again by doing so?"​

I don't think so! Why? Because doing so does not prevent ANYONE from ever sinning again. If you took this "symbolic" language seriously and did cut out one eye, you still have one eye left to succumb to "lusting after" sinful things like inappropriate contentography for example.

Mutilating the physical body does not keep anyone from sinning with our lives, hands, or feet anymore than taking the verse seriously about picking up venomous snakes without being bitten by them. Neither can you show us that Jesus encouraged physical maiming of the body anywhere in scripture. In fact scriptures says that "our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit" (1Co 6:19) and that we are to treat it as such.

In that verse Jesus is conveying that we should take practical—if not quite so extreme—measures to avoid sin. We will always face people with more money, more popularity, more possessions, and better looks than us. We particularly need God's help to overcome sins of the mind. In modern times, a corollary of "cutting out one eye" could be limiting internet access. Internet inappropriate contentography is a serious problem with non-Christians and Christ-followers alike.

You must understand that, under the Old Covenant of Law, God literally promised Israel that if they obey him, they will never fall sick (Deuteronomy 7:15, Exodus 15:26)

Under the promised kingdom of heaven on Earth, no one in Israel will be maim or sick too
Isaiah 33:24

Because we gentiles were not Jesus's audience in the first coming on Earth (Matthew 15:24), naturally when we read verses like that, we assume "Jesus must not have meant what he said".

You wisely quoted from Paul in 1 Cor 6:19 for us in the Body of Christ, and you are correct, under the current grace dispensation, healing is no longer guaranteed for us. Again, the key is to learn how to rightly divide the word of truth.

But believe me, the Jews who heard Jesus say all those things during his 1st coming, did not have to spiritualize what Jesus was saying. They literally saw Jesus healing all of them ((Luke 7:22, John 20:30, Acts 10:38)

 

[ShineyDays2]

Jesus meant this literally but he was speaking to Israel, not us.

The word "Israel" has several meanings:

1) One of the names God gave his son in the OT.
2) Israel was always to be God's people - not a territory on earth.
3) The title the Jews took in 1948 when they were given the opportunity to return to the land by England.​

Exodus 4:22-23- "And you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, Israel is my first-born son, and I say to you, "Let my son go that he may serve me"; if you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your first-born son.'"

Hosea 11:1 - “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.”

Matthew 2:14-15 - “When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.” "And he rose and took the child and his mother by night, and departed to Egypt, and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."

Isaiah 49:1-6 - "Listen to me, O coastlands, and hearken, you peoples from afar. The LORD called me from the womb, from the body of my mother he named my name. He made my mouth like a sharp sword, in the shadow of his hand he hid me; he made me a polished arrow, in his quiver he hid me away. And he said to me, "You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified." But I said, "I have labored in vain, I have spent my strength for nothing and vanity; yet surely my right is with the LORD, and my recompense with my God." And now the LORD says, who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him, and that Israel might be gathered to him, for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD, and my God has become my strength--he says: "It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved of Israel; I will give you as a light to the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

The false doctrine of dispensationalism, whose main promoter was a Scotsman by the name of Charles Nelson Darby in the early 1800's, is based on the death, burial and resurrection of land of Israel and not on Jesus Christ, making Israel the center of all things and not Christ Jesus our Lord. For many, dispensationalism became "fact" after 1948 when the Jews returned to the Holy Land. No amount of solid Scriptural evidence to the contrary can seem to sway these misguided people.​

You must learn how to rightly divide the word of truth

Dividing the word of truth does not mean literally dividing the church into 2 different belief systems about the second coming of Christ and separating the Church from Jewish believers in Christ. We are ONE BODY in Christ - not two as in Ephesians 2...

Eph 2:14-16..."For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby bringing the hostility to an end."

Eph 4:4 - "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,"

 

[ShineyDays2]

Because we gentiles were not Jesus's audience in the first coming on Earth (Matthew 15:24), naturally when we read verses like that, we assume "Jesus must not have meant what he said".

But though not "sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" ( Mat 15:24 ), He did not exclude the lost sheep of the vast Gentile world from coming to Him when they did come as the exchange with the Samaritan woman in John 4 was designed to show because the very first tour of the land of Israel was though Samaria which was of the mixed race of Jews and Gentiles of which the Jews of Israel hated.

Act 3:26 -"God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you in turning every one of you from your wickedness."

Rom 15:8 - For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God's truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs,​

Yes, it is true that Jesus was sent to the "lost House of Israel" FIRST, however, it does not indicate that that was to be turned into a division of those who would come to believe in his plan of salvation to the world at large nor does it indicate that Matthew is saying that he was ONLY sent to "the lost sheep of Israel."

Also, is you look at the OT, Abraham was brought out of the land of UR, a Gentile race for one thing. Another is that if you search the scriptures, Gentiles of the OT were ALWAYS permitted to join the Jewish religion because you will find such terms as; alien, sojourner, proselytized, from afar...etc.

What you do not understand is that from the time of Adam and Eve, God always included anyone of any religion to become a part of his plan of salvation beginning with that "tree of life" in the Garden of Eden to all who believed. It never stopped growing with both Jews and Gentiles being grown together. This is the most egregious misinterpretation of the dispensationalists doctrines that have divided the Christian community for several hundreds of years now and has resulted into the universal church of Christ becoming now the apostate church of Christ...IMHO of course, yet I know I am not alone in this distressing fact.

 

[Guojing]

The word "Israel" has several meanings:

1) One of the names God gave his son in the OT.
2) Israel was always to be God's people - not a territory on earth.
3) The title the Jews took in 1948 when they were given the opportunity to return to the land by England.​

Exodus 4:22-23- "And you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, Israel is my first-born son, and I say to you, "Let my son go that he may serve me"; if you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your first-born son.'"

Hosea 11:1 - “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.”

Matthew 2:14-15 - “When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.” "And he rose and took the child and his mother by night, and departed to Egypt, and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."

Isaiah 49:1-6 - "Listen to me, O coastlands, and hearken, you peoples from afar. The LORD called me from the womb, from the body of my mother he named my name. He made my mouth like a sharp sword, in the shadow of his hand he hid me; he made me a polished arrow, in his quiver he hid me away. And he said to me, "You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified." But I said, "I have labored in vain, I have spent my strength for nothing and vanity; yet surely my right is with the LORD, and my recompense with my God." And now the LORD says, who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him, and that Israel might be gathered to him, for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD, and my God has become my strength--he says: "It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved of Israel; I will give you as a light to the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

The false doctrine of dispensationalism, whose main promoter was a Scotsman by the name of Charles Nelson Darby in the early 1800's, is based on the death, burial and resurrection of land of Israel and not on Jesus Christ, making Israel the center of all things and not Christ Jesus our Lord. For many, dispensationalism became "fact" after 1948 when the Jews returned to the Holy Land. No amount of solid Scriptural evidence to the contrary can seem to sway these misguided people.​

Dividing the word of truth does not mean literally dividing the church into 2 different belief systems about the second coming of Christ and separating the Church from Jewish believers in Christ. We are ONE BODY in Christ - not two as in Ephesians 2...

Eph 2:14-16..."For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby bringing the hostility to an end."

Eph 4:4 - "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,"

You are now moving to another topic.

 

[Guojing]

But though not "sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" ( Mat 15:24 ), He did not exclude the lost sheep of the vast Gentile world from coming to Him when they did come as the exchange with the Samaritan woman in John 4 was designed to show because the very first tour of the land of Israel was though Samaria which was of the mixed race of Jews and Gentiles of which the Jews of Israel hated.

Act 3:26 -"God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you in turning every one of you from your wickedness."

Rom 15:8 - For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God's truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs,​

Yes, it is true that Jesus was sent to the "lost House of Israel" FIRST, however, it does not indicate that that was to be turned into a division of those who would come to believe in his plan of salvation to the world at large nor does it indicate that Matthew is saying that he was ONLY sent to "the lost sheep of Israel."

Also, is you look at the OT, Abraham was brought out of the land of UR, a Gentile race for one thing. Another is that if you search the scriptures, Gentiles of the OT were ALWAYS permitted to join the Jewish religion because you will find such terms as; alien, sojourner, proselytized, from afar...etc.

What you do not understand is that from the time of Adam and Eve, God always included anyone of any religion to become a part of his plan of salvation beginning with that "tree of life" in the Garden of Eden to all who believed. It never stopped growing with both Jews and Gentiles being grown together. This is the most egregious misinterpretation of the dispensationalists doctrines that have divided the Christian community for several hundreds of years now and has resulted into the universal church of Christ becoming now the apostate church of Christ...IMHO of course, yet I know I am not alone in this distressing fact.

Are you still interested in discussing whether Jesus said what he meant and meant what he said, in the 4 Gospels?

 

[ShineyDays2]

You are now moving to another topic.

Nonsense! Your post # 3430 that refers to "the Jews" means the same as "Israel". It is that word "Israel" that becomes divided up into two different peoples --- which is, nor was, God's plan - it was the "plan" promoted by John Darby in the 1800's

 

[ShineyDays2]

Are you still interested in discussing whether Jesus said what he meant and meant what he said, in the 4 Gospels?

Why should I waste my valued time if you can't spend some time reading John 4's account with the Samaritan woman and acknowledge that Jesus first went to the Samaritans (hybrid Jews and Gentiles) to indicate that BOTH were to soon to be united through the cross.

Again, yes Jesus DID go to the Jews of Jerusalem first as the "good news of salvation of mankind was to go out into the world" from Jerusalem" and it did in Acts as it shows that that occurred after the death of Stephen. It was then that Philip went to Samaria and Samaria became the first "mixed" peoples to turn to Christ.

After that, it was Paul who on all his tours, went to the synagogues first and the to the Gentiles in the open arenas and where homes were used as meeting places.

 

[Guojing]

Why should I waste my valued time if you can't spend some time reading John 4's account with the Samaritan woman and acknowledge that Jesus first went to the Samaritans (hybrid Jews and Gentiles) to indicate that BOTH were to soon to be united through the cross.

Again, yes Jesus DID go to the Jews of Jerusalem first as the "good news of salvation of mankind was to go out into the world" from Jerusalem" and it did in Acts as it shows that that occurred after the death of Stephen. It was then that Philip went to Samaria and Samaria became the first "mixed" peoples to turn to Christ.

Alright then, thanks for sharing

To think that I already praised you for using Paul correctly for us In the body of Christ

 

[ShineyDays2]

Alright then, thanks for sharing

So, I guess you don't have the courage to read John 4 or to plug in on your computer - "John Nelson Darby" or "The Origins of Dispensationalism"? If so let me ask you why you are here; to teach us AMIL's or to learn from us AMIL's?

To think that I already praised you for using Paul correctly for us In the body of Christ

Thanks for the "thumbs up".

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Not sure how context would change the meaning of the words "you will never die". It's pretty clear, don't you think?

It's pretty clear to me that you don't understand what He was saying. Look at the passage more carefully.

John 11:21 “Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.” 23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Look at what He said in verse 25. He said those who believe in Him "will live even though they die. This is what He was saying to Martha in relation to the resurrection of the dead "at the last day" (verse 24 11:24). So, in verse 25 He says that those who believe in Him will live even though they had died. How are you missing that? He clearly said in verse 25 that they will die, so you need to take that into account when interpreting verse 26. How do they die? Physically, like Lazarus did.

He didn't proceed to contradict Himself in verse 26, though. He already said they would die, so why would He follow that up by saying they will never die? We (believers) will never die because even when we physically die, our souls and spirits live on. And we also will never experience the second death as unbelievers will (Rev 20:14-15). So, that is the context in which we will never die.

When you conclude that we will literally never die in any way then that shows that you are missing what Jesus specifically said in John 11:25 which is that we continue to live even though we will die (physically). And the reason He said we will never die is because our bodies are not all there is to us, for one thing, and another thing is that when we're resurrected at the last day it will be unto eternal bodily life instead of unto the second death.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

True Israel/Israel of God (Galatians 6:16) refers to the little flock out of the nation Israel that believe Christ is their Messiah, those that are pastored by James the brother of Jesus, at the end of Acts.

They continue to stay zealous to the Law of Moses, even after they believed in Christ as their Messiah (Acts 21:18-25, James 2:24-26, 1 John 2:29, 1 John 3:7).

The rest of the nation Israel has fallen in disbelief (Acts 7:51, Romans 11:1-5)

That is the difference between the 2 Israels.

That interpretation indicates that you believe one requirement for being part of the True Israel/Israel of God is being a descendant of the nation of Israel. But, that isn't what Paul said in Romans 9:6-8. It says just the opposite of that.

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

This indicates that where you are descended or who you are descended from has nothing at all to do with being part of the true Israel of God. Instead, it has to do with being "God's children" and "children of the promise". This is where the importance of interpreting scripture with scripture comes in. If we can determine who "God's children" and "the children of the promise" made to Abraham are then we can determine who are part of the true Israel of God. Agree? So, let's use the following passage to determine the identity of "God's children" and "the children of the promise".

Galatians 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Paul, speaking to Jew and Gentile Christians, said that we are the children of God through faith in Christ. Then he said that those who belong to Christ are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. So, God's children, who are the children of the promise that Paul referred to in Romans 9:6-8, are those who have faith in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile. And they are counted as Abraham's seed and therefore counted as part of the Israel of God.

So, your understanding of Romans 9:6-8 is not accurate because it doesn't agree with other scripture like Galatians 3:26-29. When you take both of these passages into account, it shows that the true Israel of God does not just consist of a subset of Israelite Christians as you believe. It also includes Gentile Christians because, as Paul said, "there is neither Jew nor Gentile".

All who have faith in Christ are included among the children of God/children of the promise and those are the ones who Paul is referring to in Romans 9:6-8. You say that one's nationality has something to do with being part of the Israel of God. But scripture says that has nothing to do with it.