Believing in the gospel saves. (1 Corinthians 15: 1-4)

Guojing · Jun 10, 2021

Titus Dorn said:
The Bible interprets itself. Private interpretation is condemned by the Bible itself, 2 Peter 1:20.

Hebrews 10:8-10 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldst not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said He, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. HE TAKETH AWAY THE FIRST, THAT HE MAY ESTABLISH THE SECOND, By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL.
The Mosical law has been taken away by Jesus Christ. Now why do you still think jews today are under the old law of Moses? The sacred scriptures teach the opposite of your doctrine.

The churches at Ephesus,Corinth, Galatia had both jew and gentile christians. Did they preach two different gospels on the first day of the week, Acts 20:7 ?

They are no longer under the Law of Moses, we understand that now because AD 70 has passed and the temple has burnt down.

But James and the little flock would not have realized that. When Acts 21:18-25 was happening, the temple was still up and running.

But there is a specific reason why the books Hebrews to Revelation were placed after Romans to Philemon. In the age to come, the Tribulation, some of us believed that the temple will be rebuilt in Israel. So the truths written in those books will apply once again during that time period.

Titus Dorn · Jun 10, 2021

But James and the little flock would not have realized that. When Acts 21:18-25 was happening, the temple was still up and running.

The Apostles would not have known that Jesus Christ the very one guiding them by His Holy Spirit that gave them miraculous knowledge would not understand what Jesus died on the cross for? You really believe this?

Don't you know that the apostles had ALL truth revealed to them through the Holy Spirit?
John 16:13 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
You still want to use this argument that the apostles were ignorant of Jesus bringing in a new covenant and taking away the old?

Guojing · Jun 10, 2021

Titus Dorn said:
But James and the little flock would not have realized that. When Acts 21:18-25 was happening, the temple was still up and running.

The Apostles would not have known that Jesus Christ the very one guiding them by His Holy Spirit that gave them miraculous knowledge would not understand what Jesus died on the cross for? You really believe this?

Don't you know that the apostles had ALL truth revealed to them through the Holy Spirit?
John 16:13 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
You still want to use this argument that the apostles were ignorant of Jesus bringing in a new covenant and taking away the old?

Christ saved Paul to reveal to him the mystery program for the but now time period, for us in the Body of Christ.

Christ has a different plan for the rest of the 12. They didn't need to know about the mystery program because the prophetic program will resume, for Israel in the age to come

As I already stated

But there is a specific reason why the books Hebrews to Revelation were placed after Romans to Philemon. In the age to come, the Tribulation, some of us believed that the temple will be rebuilt in Israel. So the truths written in those books will apply once again during that time period.

Titus Dorn · Jun 10, 2021

Guojing said:
Christ saved Paul to reveal to him the mystery program for the but now time period, for us in the Body of Christ.

Christ has a different plan for the rest of the 12. They didn't need to know about the mystery program because the prophetic program will resume, for Israel in the age to come

As I already stated

Ok, now show me your beliefs with scriptures.

You really think only some of the apostles were given ALL MIRACULOUS KNOWLEDGE BY THE HOLY SPIRIT? Where does the Holy scriptures teach your ideas?

Guojing · Jun 10, 2021

Titus Dorn said:
Ok, now show me your beliefs with scriptures.

You really think only some of the apostles were given ALL MIRACULOUS KNOWLEDGE BY THE HOLY SPIRIT? Where does the Holy scriptures teach your ideas?

First, do you recognize and understand how Paul distinguished between 3 particular time periods in his epistles?

Time past
But now
Age to come

The clearest example of this distinction can be found in Ephesians 2

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Titus Dorn · Jun 10, 2021

Guojing said:
for us in the Body of Christ.

I already have proven that ALL Christians are In the body of Christ which is His church, Colossians 1:8

Ephesians 2:15-16 Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, EVEN THE LAW OF COMMANDMENTS CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES; for to make in Himself of twain ONE new man, so making peace; And that He might reconcile BOTH unto God IN ONE BODY by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby.
That body of Christ includes both jew and gentile.

Titus Dorn · Jun 10, 2021

Guojing said:
First, do you recognize and understand how Paul distinguished between 3 particular time periods in his epistles?

Time past
But now
Age to come

The clearest example of this distinction can be found in Ephesians 2

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Sir, these verses do not prove your doctrine of two gospels. These verses in Epheasians 2 Paul is speaking to gentiles. Nowhere in these verses is he speaking to Jews who have converted to Christ. These verses don't prove or give evidence of your supposed two gospels.

Now answer my question. Do only some of the apostles have all miraculous knowledge given by the Holy Spirit they ALL received in Acts 2 and Acts 9? You still have not given any evidence for James and the rest of the apostles being ignorant of the end of the old covenant.

Guojing · Jun 10, 2021

Titus Dorn said:
I already have proven that ALL Christians are In the body of Christ which is His church, Colossians 1:8

Ephesians 2:15-16 Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, EVEN THE LAW OF COMMANDMENTS CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES; for to make in Himself of twain ONE new man, so making peace; And that He might reconcile BOTH unto God IN ONE BODY by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby.
That body of Christ includes both jew and gentile.

I already said many times I agree with you.

Our different starting points is that I believe Israel is NOT the Body of Christ.

While for you, you start with this, Israel and the Body of Christ are equivalent terms.

Guojing · Jun 10, 2021

Titus Dorn said:
Sir, these verses do not prove your doctrine of two gospels. These verses in Epheasians 2 Paul is speaking to gentiles. Nowhere in these verses is he speaking to Jews who have converted to Christ. These verses don't prove or give evidence of your supposed two gospels.

Now answer my question. Do only some of the apostles have all miraculous knowledge given by the Holy Spirit they ALL received in Acts 2 and Acts 9? You still have not given any evidence for James and the rest of the apostles being ignorant of the end of the old covenant.

I already said that they don't.

Let me suggest a test for you, if you are keen.

Read Hebrews, James, 1 and 2 Peter, 1-3 John.

Tell me whether you can find the following revelations that only Paul revealed

The Body of Christ, where Jews and gentiles are equal
Salvation by faith in the death burial and resurrection of Christ alone, without works.
The pre-tribulation rapture of the Body of Christ.

Titus Dorn · Jun 10, 2021

Guojing said:
I already said that they don't.

Let me suggest a test for you, if you are keen.

Read Hebrews, James, 1 and 2 Peter, 1-3 John.

Tell me whether you can find the following revelations that only Paul revealed

The Body of Christ, where Jews and gentiles are equal

Salvation by faith in the death burial and resurrection of Christ alone, without works.

The pre-tribulation rapture of the Body of Christ.

I can show you before those books that your doctrines of Sola fide, and the body of Christ were both false.

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the jew or the greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him. Paul explained we are all equal in Romans.

Faith alone. Paul never revealed this false doctrine. James condems it. James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only.

I'm not going to get into the kingdom being set up on earth in Jerusalem and the rapture. I am not going off topic until you answer my questions.

Show me with book, chapter and verse where some of the apostles did not have ALL miraculous knowledge given by the Holy Spirit.

Explain to me the churches that were mixed with both Jewish christians and gentile Christians how they heard two different gospels on the first day of the week in their local churches?

Why are you silent, about the body of Christ being both jew and gentile?, Epheasians 2:15-16. You keep claiming that some christians are excluded from the body of Christ.

Guojing · Jun 10, 2021

Titus Dorn said:
I can show you before those books that your doctrines of Sola fide, and the body of Christ were both false.

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the jew or the greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him. Paul explained we are all equal in Romans.

Faith alone. Paul never revealed this false doctrine. James condems it. James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only.

I'm not going to get into the kingdom being set up on earth in Jerusalem and the rapture. I am not going off topic until you answer my questions.

Show me with book, chapter and verse where some of the apostles did not have ALL miraculous knowledge given by the Holy Spirit.

Explain to me the churches that were mixed with both Jewish christians and gentile Christians how they heard two different gospels on the first day of the week in their local churches?

Why are you silent, about the body of Christ being both jew and gentile?, Epheasians 2:15-16. You keep claiming that some christians are excluded from the body of Christ.

I already said so many times I agree with you that the Body of Christ has neither Jew nor gentile.

How many times do you want me to repeat that agreement?

And I already told you that James did not teach salvation by faith alone. For good reason, in the age to come, during the Tribulation, for Israel, salvation is not by faith alone apart from works.

So James is preaching correct doctrine, but it is correct in the age to come, not in the but now. You have to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15)

klutedavid · Jun 10, 2021

Titus Dorn said:
Sir, these verses do not prove your doctrine of two gospels. These verses in Epheasians 2 Paul is speaking to gentiles. Nowhere in these verses is he speaking to Jews who have converted to Christ. These verses don't prove or give evidence of your supposed two gospels.

Now answer my question. Do only some of the apostles have all miraculous knowledge given by the Holy Spirit they ALL received in Acts 2 and Acts 9? You still have not given any evidence for James and the rest of the apostles being ignorant of the end of the old covenant.

This is some of the conflict between the Jewish apostles and Paul.

Galatians 2:11-14
But when Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

Titus Dorn · Jun 10, 2021

klutedavid said:
This is some of the conflict between the Jewish apostles and Paul.

Galatians 2:11-14
But when Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

Was Peter going against God and the Holy Spirit's revelation of the gospel when Peter committed this sin?

Guojing · Jun 10, 2021

klutedavid said:
This is some of the conflict between the Jewish apostles and Paul.

Galatians 2:11-14
But when Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

One of the questions I always wondered in my head is this, "Did James and the elders actually accept the money that Paul was raising for the Jerusalem church, that Paul talked so much about in Romans and 1-2 Corinthians, in Acts 21"?

Too bad Luke was silent about that. We will only know in heaven. =)

Titus Dorn · Jun 10, 2021

klutedavid said:
This is some of the conflict between the Jewish apostles and Paul.

Galatians 2:11-14
But when Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

Was Peter going against God and the Holy Spirit's revelation of the gospel when Peter committed this sin?

Titus Dorn · Jun 10, 2021

[QUOTE="Guojing, post: 76012087, member:

I never said Isreal is the body of Christ. Jewish converts to Christ and gentile converts to Christ make up the body of Christ.

What do you mean James taught that Jews were saved by a gospel of works? And that gentiles are saved by a gospel of no works. Have you never read of the Ethiopian Eunuch?

Acts 8:35;37-38 Then Philip opened his mouth and began at the same scripture and preached to unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the Eunuch said, See here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, if thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Phillip and the Eunuch; and he baptized him.
Here is a gentile of birth obeying the one gospel by being saved by grace faith and works of obedience not merit. Does not fit with your interpretation of the book of James. You need to rightly divide the word, 2 Timothy 2:15. Are prosilytes also included in your gospel of works for the circumcision?

Titus Dorn · Jun 11, 2021

Guojing said:
One of the questions I always wondered in my head is this, "Did James and the elders actually accept the money that Paul was raising for the Jerusalem church, that Paul talked so much about in Romans and 1-2 Corinthians, in Acts 21"?

Too bad Luke was silent about that. We will only know in heaven. =)

Also, If James is only referring to Jews in Acts 2. Then why was the gentile Cornelius saved by Grace faith and obedient works? This also does not fit with your explanation of the book of James.

Guojing · Jun 11, 2021

Titus Dorn said:
Also, If James is only referring to Jews in Acts 2. Then why was the gentile Cornelius saved by Grace faith and obedient works? This also does not fit with your explanation of the book of James.

Cornelius was not saved under Paul's gospel, he was saved under the gospel of the kingdom.

Clues are given in the Acts 10 account

2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.

4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

...

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Prior to the mystery, Gentiles could be included in the Old covenant, but only by joining the nation Israel. That was how Rahab and Ruth were included

Titus Dorn · Jun 11, 2021

Guojing said:
I already said so many times I agree with you that the Body of Christ has neither Jew nor gentile.

How many times do you want me to repeat that agreement?

And I already told you that James did not teach salvation by faith alone. For good reason, in the age to come, during the Tribulation, for Israel, salvation is not by faith alone apart from works.

So James is preaching correct doctrine, but it is correct in the age to come, not in the but now. You have to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15)

You believe there is another gospel in the future. This also contradicts the new testament. Jude 3 Beloved when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you that ye should earnestly contend for THE FAITH which WAS ONCE FOR ALL DELIVERED UNTO THE SAINTS.
The one gospel has already come and is in practise. Not one passage in the new testament ever mentioning the gospel's. Only THE GOSPEL once for all time DELIVERED.

Guojing · Jun 11, 2021

Titus Dorn said:
You believe there is another gospel in the future. This also contradicts the new testament. Jude 3 Beloved when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you that ye should earnestly contend for THE FAITH which WAS ONCE FOR ALL DELIVERED UNTO THE SAINTS.
The one gospel has already come and is in practise. Not one passage in the new testament ever mentioning the gospel's. Only THE GOSPEL once for all time DELIVERED.

That is your interpretation of Jude, which I don't share. Jude was not writing to the Body of Christ, but Israel, anyway.

The gospel of the kingdom will resume again for Israel during the Tribulation, Jesus made that clear, to me at least, in Matthew 24:14

Believing in the gospel saves. (1 Corinthians 15: 1-4)

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