CAN YOU LOSE YOUR SALVATION AND ETERNAL LIFE?

sawdust · Jun 9, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
I see than all you need to do is prove what your saying and claiming here from the scriptures.

LOL You're kidding right? I've already shown you don't understand the James passage because the crown of life cannot mean eternal life.

LoveGodsWord said:
Of course you are free to believe what ever you wish as that is between you and God and the words of God we all accept or reject will be our judge come judgement day

We at least can agree on that. You have a really nice day.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 9, 2021

sawdust said:
LOL You're kidding right? I've already shown you don't understand the James passage because the crown of life cannot mean eternal life. We at least can agree on that. You have a really nice day.

No not kidding at all. Why would you think otherwise? You have shown no such thing. If you believe you did please post the link to your post showing James 1:12 does not say Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. If you cannot why are you pretending that you have? The crown of life is eternal life which no one receive according to the scriptures if they do not remain faithful to the end believing and following what God's Word says. Eternal life according to the scriptures is conditional on believing and following what Gods Word says. Anything else is the faith of devils according to James in James 2:17-26

You have a really nice day as well

Guojing · Jun 9, 2021

genez said:
I do not know why you do it. But you always find a way to confuse the issue. Last time, you told me I was not a dispensationalist while commenting on something I said that was solidly dispensational. You're either confused, or want to confuse. I said that because you are using the same tactic with different subjects...

Are you telling me you are a dispensationalist in your bible interpretation?

In the first place, that post was not even directed to you. So if you are confused, that is not really surprising.

sawdust · Jun 9, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
No not kidding at all. Why would you think otherwise? You have shown no such thing. If you believe you did please post the link to your post showing James 1:12 does not say Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. If you cannot why are you pretending that you have? The crown of life is eternal life which no one receive according to the scriptures if they do not remain faithful to the end believing and following what God's Word says. Eternal life according to the scriptures is conditional on believing and following what Gods Word says. Anything else is the faith of devils according to James in James 2:17-26

You have a really nice day as well

I can't make you understand what you can't understand. Others reading my posts realise why the crown of life cannot be referring to eternal life or that no-one had to endure temptation in order to believe in the Gospel. James is talking about sanctification and the promise of reward for overcoming this present evil, not salvation from spiritual death.

sawdust · Jun 9, 2021

Guojing said:
Are you telling me you are a dispensationalist in your bible interpretation?

In the first place, that post was not even directed to you. So if you are confused, that is not really surprising.

The post was in part at least to me and I was confused which is why I ignored it. As far as i was concerned, you had no idea what was being said.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 9, 2021

sawdust said:
I can't make you understand what you can't understand. Others reading my posts realise why the crown of life cannot be referring to eternal life or that no-one had to endure temptation in order to believe in the Gospel. James is talking about sanctification and the promise of reward for overcoming this present evil, not salvation from spiritual death.

You seem to have it mixed up. We do not need to endure temptation to believe the gospel. That comes after. Do you know the difference between justification and sanctification?

Guojing · Jun 9, 2021

sawdust said:
The post was in part at least to me and I was confused which is why I ignored it. As far as i was concerned, you had no idea what was being said.

Your opponent is using James to conclude that one only receive eternal life at the end of his life on earth.

While you are using John 17:3 here, CAN YOU LOSE YOUR SALVATION AND ETERNAL LIFE?, in #671 to conclude that eternal life is a present possession.

Sometimes, it takes a third party to see clearly.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 9, 2021

Guojing said:
Your opponent is using James to conclude that one only receive eternal life at the end of his life on earth.

While you are using John 17:3 here, CAN YOU LOSE YOUR SALVATION AND ETERNAL LIFE?, in #671 to conclude that eternal life is a present possession.

Sometimes, it takes a third party to see clearly.

His opponent uses scripture which is God's Word not his words to show that God's Word says we have the hope of eternal life today when we believe Gods' Word (Titus 1:2; Titus 3:7). No one receives eternal life however until they have been tried through temptation and been found remaining faithful to the end according to the scriptures (James 1:12; Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-39). What is it in the scriptures shared here that you do not believe? No one knows God while not doing what God's Word says. God's promises are conditional on believing and following what God's Word says anything else is the faith of devils according to James in James 2:17-26. Eternal life is only a present possession if we are in the present tense believing and following what Gods' Word says (see Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-39).

Hope this is helpful.

Guojing · Jun 9, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
His opponent uses scripture which is God's Word not his words to show that God's Word says we have the hope of eternal life today when we believe Gods' Word (Titus 1:2; Titus 3:7). No one receives eternal life however until they have been tried through temptation and been found remaining faithful to the end according to the scriptures (James 1:12; Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-39). What is it in the scriptures shared here that you do not believe? No one knows God while not doing what God's Word says. God's promises are conditional on believing and following what God's Word says anything else is the faith of devils according to James in James 2:17-26. Eternal life is only a present possession if we are in the present tense believing and following what Gods' Word says (see Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-39).

Hope this is helpful.

There are scripture that indicates that salvation is a future event (1 Peter 1:9, and those verses you are holding on to, in Hebrews and James), and there are also scripture that indicates salvation is a present possession (Ephesians 1:7).

Without rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15), as I have already stated to you, its easy for both sides to just stand fast on whatever scripture that happens to support their respective doctrine regarding present or future salvation.

That is why such debate almost never converged.

GenemZ · Jun 9, 2021

Guojing said:
Are you telling me you are a dispensationalist in your bible interpretation?

In the first place, that post was not even directed to you. So if you are confused, that is not really surprising.

There you go again. With what looks like baiting me with another contradictory remark. You're wrong. ... Your remark was directed to me.

You said to me....

"There are not many people who are not dispensationalists, but also believe in pre-trib rapture of the body of Christ.

You are like the second I have encountered so far."
CAN YOU LOSE YOUR SALVATION AND ETERNAL LIFE?

What was that about?

First of all.. To be pre-Trib? One must be a dispensationalist! For the Tribulation is a dispensation! Again.. sorry.. you introduce confusion too often. :angel:

Guojing · Jun 9, 2021

genez said:
There you go again. Baiting me with another contradictory remark. Yes... It was directed to me.

You said to me....

"There are not many people who are not dispensationalists, but also believe in pre-trib rapture of the body of Christ.

You are like the second I have encountered so far."
CAN YOU LOSE YOUR SALVATION AND ETERNAL LIFE?

What was that about?

First of all.. To be pre-Trib? One must be a dispensationalist! For the Tribulation is a dispensation! Again.. sorry.. you introduce confusion too often.

Yes, I said that to you, but that was a separate topic that is not related to the current topic that we are discussing now.

I didn't say you must be a dispensationalist to believe in pre-trib.

I am just saying "There are not many people who are not dispensationalists, but also believe in pre-trib rapture of the body of Christ."

These 2 sentences have different meaning.

GenemZ · Jun 9, 2021

Guojing said:
Yes, I said that but that was a separate topic that is not related to the current topic that we are discussing now.

I didn't say you must be a dispensationalist to believe in pre-trib. I am just saying "There are not many people who are not dispensationalists, but also believe in pre-trib rapture of the body of Christ."

They just have a very limited list of dispensations.

The Tribulation will be a new dispensation...

Please.. You need to find a better way to express what you said here:

"There are not many people who are not dispensationalists, but also believe in pre-trib rapture of the body of Christ."

That is saying that many are dispensationalists.. Alright. Many are then. . But, then you add that these dispensationalists also believe in the Tribulation and the rapture. Well? The Tribulation and rapture are dispensational to begin with.

Sorry.. You have something very confused, and that is why I find you confusing. Maybe you were taught something not correctly and are assuming words mean something different.

Guojing · Jun 9, 2021

genez said:
They just have a very limited list of dispensations.

The Tribulation will be a new dispensation...

Please.. You need to find a better way to express what you said here:

"There are not many people who are not dispensationalists, but also believe in pre-trib rapture of the body of Christ."

That is saying that many are dispensationalists.. Alright. Many are then. . But, then you add that these dispensationalists also believe in the Tribulation and the rapture. Well? The Tribulation and rapture are dispensational to begin with.

Sorry.. You have something very confused, and that is why I find you confusing. Maybe you were taught something not correctly and are assuming words mean something different.

If you are confused with what I am saying but prefer not to clarify with me, that is beyond my control.

But I am not confused. Of course, if you continually claim that I am, that is also beyond my control.

You cannot control what others choose to think about you.

GenemZ · Jun 10, 2021

Guojing said:
If you are confused with what I am saying but prefer not to clarify with me, that is beyond my control.

But I am not confused. Of course, if you continually claim that I am, that is also beyond my control.

You cannot control what others choose to think about you.

OK... game playing. Oye...

LoveGodsWord · Jun 10, 2021

Guojing said:
There are scripture that indicates that salvation is a future event (1 Peter 1:9, and those verses you are holding on to, in Hebrews and James), and there are also scripture that indicates salvation is a present possession (Ephesians 1:7).

Without rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15), as I have already stated to you, its easy for both sides to just stand fast on whatever scripture that happens to support their respective doctrine regarding present or future salvation.

That is why such debate almost never converged.

The reason for this is because God's salvation is for those who believe and follow His Word not for those who believed and followed yesterday and only to fall away and depart the faith no longer believe and follow today as Hebrews teaches. We have to be found believing and following God's Word to the end to receive God's promise of eternal life. We have the hope of eternal life today as long we are believing and following what God's Word says according to the scriptures (present tense active) so all scriptures are in harmony if we right divide the Word of truth according to Timothy. If we are only believing but not following there is no promise of eternal life as this is the faith of devils according to James. So eternal life is conditional on believing and following what God's Word says according to the scriptures. No one is rightly dividing the Word of truth if they think they can have eternal life without believing and following what Gods' Word says according to the scriptures.

Guojing · Jun 10, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
The reason for this is because God's salvation is for those who believe and follow His Word not for those who believed and followed yesterday and only to fall away and depart the faith no longer believe and follow today as Hebrews teaches. We have to be found believing and following God's Word to the end to receive God's promise of eternal life. We have the hope of eternal life today as long we are believing and following what God's Word says according to the scriptures (present tense active) so all scriptures are in harmony if we right divide the Word of truth according to Timothy. If we are only believing but not following there is no promise of eternal life as this is the faith of devils according to James. So eternal life is conditional on believing and following what God's Word says according to the scriptures. No one is rightly dividing the Word of truth if they think they can have eternal life without believing and following what Gods' Word says according to the scriptures.

There is truth written to Israel in time past and the age to come

There is truth written to the Body of Christ in the but now.

By sticking to the teachings of Hebrews and James, you are following the truth written to the nation Israel, which will indeed be valid during the age to come, which is the Tribulation.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 10, 2021

Guojing said:
There is truth written to Israel in time past and the age to come

There is truth written to the Body of Christ in the but now.

By sticking to the teachings of Hebrews and James, you are following the truth written to the nation Israel, which will indeed be valid during the age to come, which is the Tribulation.

Not really Guojing but allow me to explain why from the scriptures. According to the scripture, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." - 2 Timothy 3:16 and "all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." 1 Corinthians 10:11. Jesus even saying himself that we are to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God in Matthew 4:4. If your argument is true (which it is not) then according to you we should not believe the gospels that were also the words of Jesus given to the Jews (they were all Jews). Fortunately, though your teachings are not biblical as all scripture is for God's people in the new covenant. According to the scriptures Israel is no longer those born of the flesh but all those who through faith in God's Word are now born of the Spirit according to the promise (see Romans 9:6-8; John 3:3-7; Jeremiah 31:31-36 and Ezekiel 36:24-27 - Hebrews 8:10-12) and a Jew is not one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God *Romans 2:28-29. According to the scriptures there is no more Jewish and Gentile believers as we are now all one in Christ *Galatians 3:28-29; Colossians 3:11; Romans 10:11-13 and God's ISRAEL are all those who through faith believe and follow what God's Word says *John 10:26-27. If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL born of the Spirit according to the scriptures you have no part in God's new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27 because unbelieving Jews have been cut out and believing gentiles have been grafted in according to Romans 11:13-27.

Hope this is helpful.

Guojing · Jun 10, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Not really Guojing but allow me to explain why from the scriptures. According to the scripture, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." - 2 Timothy 3:16 and "all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." 1 Corinthians 10:11. Jesus even saying himself that we are to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God in Matthew 4:4. If your argument is true (which it is not) then according to you we should not believe the gospels that were also the words of Jesus given to the Jews (they were all Jews). Fortunately, though your teachings are not biblical as all scripture is for God's people in the new covenant. According to the scriptures Israel is no longer those born of the flesh but all those who through faith in God's Word are now born of the Spirit according to the promise (see Romans 9:6-8; John 3:3-7; Jeremiah 31:31-36 and Ezekiel 36:24-27 - Hebrews 8:10-12) and a Jew is not one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God *Romans 2:28-29. According to the scriptures there is no more Jewish and Gentile believers as we are now all one in Christ *Galatians 3:28-29; Colossians 3:11; Romans 10:11-13 and God's ISRAEL are all those who through faith believe and follow what God's Word says *John 10:26-27. If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL born of the Spirit according to the scriptures you have no part in God's new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27 because unbelieving Jews have been cut out and believing gentiles have been grafted in according to Romans 11:13-27.

Hope this is helpful.

Actually Jesus made it clear his first coming was only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:24 , Matthew 10:5-6).

Paul reinforced that in Romans 15:8.

All of us who are saved under the gospel given to Paul are in the Body of Christ, which you are correct, there is neither Jew nor gentile.

But Israel remains the circumcised, we are not God's Israel, we are the Body of Christ, with a different future destiny from Israel.

We have already debated this elsewhere, so no point going thru everything again.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 10, 2021

Guojing said:
But Israel remains the circumcised, we are not God's Israel, we are the Body of Christ, with a different future destiny from Israel.

GOD'S ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT - WHO IS IT?

Actually the scriptures say no such thing as circumcision was only a "shadow law" from the old covenant pointing to a new heart by faith from Gods' promise in the new covenant. Let's look at what the scriptures says.

for example...

ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

God's ISRAEL in the new covenant is not longer those born of the flesh but all those who through faith are born of the Spirit through the promises of Gods' Word...

ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

According to the scriptures there is no more Jewish and Gentile believers as we are now all one in Christ...

GALATIANS 3:28-29 [28], THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS [29], and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.

COLOSSIANS 3:11 [11], WHERE THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: BUT CHRIST IS ALL IN ALL.

ROMANS 10:11-13 [11], For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12], FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW OR GREEK: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.

If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL born of the Spirit according to the scriptures you have no part in God's new covenant promise...

JEREMIAH 31:33-34 [33], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS,AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Paul proclaims it here...

HEBREWS 8:10-12 [10], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

The NEW COVENANT is for GOD'S ISRAEL which represent those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God’s WORD. If you are not part of GOD'S ISRAEL then you are not a part of the NEW COVENANT (Hebrews 8:10-12).

............

CONCLUSION: God's ISRAEL is the name given by God to all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. GENTILES are now grafted in. If you are not a part of the God's ISRAEL then you have no part in the NEW COVENANT.

Guojing · Jun 10, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Actually the scriptures say no such thing as circumcision was only a "shadow law" from the old covenant pointing to a new heart by faith from Gods' promise in the new covenant. Let's look at what the scriptures says.

for example...

ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

God's ISRAEL in the new covenant is not longer those born of the flesh but all those who through faith are born of the Spirit through the promises of Gods' Word...

ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

According to the scriptures there is no more Jewish and Gentile believers as we are now all one in Christ...

GALATIANS 3:28-29 [28], THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS [29], and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.

COLOSSIANS 3:11 [11], WHERE THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: BUT CHRIST IS ALL IN ALL.

ROMANS 10:11-13 [11], For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12], FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW OR GREEK: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.

If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL born of the Spirit according to the scriptures you have no part in God's new covenant promise...

JEREMIAH 31:33-34 [33], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS,AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Paul proclaims it here...

HEBREWS 8:10-12 [10], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

The NEW COVENANT is for GOD'S ISRAEL which represent those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God’s WORD. If you are not part of GOD'S ISRAEL then you are not a part of the NEW COVENANT (Hebrews 8:10-12).

............

CONCLUSION: God's ISRAEL is the name given by God to all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. GENTILES are now grafted in. If you are not a part of the God's ISRAEL then you have no part in the NEW COVENANT.

A few questions I have from this post of yours

How do you conclude Paul wrote Hebrews?

Are you aware that Israel is currently fallen in the eyes of God? (Romans 11:11)

Why do you keep lumping the Body of Christ together with Israel? Must these 2 terms be equivalent?

CAN YOU LOSE YOUR SALVATION AND ETERNAL LIFE?

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