Your God does not merit praise!
- Thread starter JAL
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Excellent proof of materialism. Yes indeed, the divine Word can easily take the shape of water, bread, and wine.
As a newborn Christian, the Pentecostal theologian Howard Ervin was the first writer to move me to question my indoctrination into immaterialism. I no longer possess his book, named Conversion-Initiation and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, but I still have some of it in memory. He said (if I remember the exact words correctly).
"An experiential encounter with the charismata of the Holy Spirit presents a disturbing challenge to prior theological categories predicated upon an implicit dichotomy between Spirit and matter."
He's arguing that speaking in tongues, for example, is the physical hand of God acting upon the larynx, thereby challenging the tendency to box God into immaterial categories. Ervin then goes onto say that such a physical experience makes people more open-minded to the Real Presence as water, bread, and wine:
"The phenomenology of the Pentecostal experience precludes quantifying reality into discontinuous spheres of Spirit and matter. Thus a consistent application of the Pentecostal pneumatology places him on the side of the sacramentalist, because in the paradigm of a Spirit/matter continuum (matter/energy contiuum), water, wine, and bread may indeed become sacramental modalities of the divine Presence."
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Again, not an exegetically justifiable translation. There are 100 clear passages in the OT alone - undisputed where ruach clearly means wind/breath. The disputed passages (disputed by materialists such as Tertullian and myself), therefore, should be interpreted in light of the 100 clear passages. Turns out that physical wind/breath is the PERFECT term for material angels and human souls. Why so? Wind/breath refers to a material substance normally invisible. That's the perfect word for a mind/soul/angel! Naturally, then, the English Standard Version renders it thus:
"He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire" (Heb 1:7).
Turns out souls are normally invisible only because God chooses to hide them. Whenever he chooses to unveil them:
"Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus" (Rev 20:4).
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Yahweh is defined in Scripture as Lord of Lords and King of Kings. He holds 100 billion galaxies in the palm of His hand. If that's your definition of a tiny King, I dare you to say that to His face.
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(Sigh). No. Due to 2,000 years of immaterial nonsense, the church STILL doesn't understand what proper preaching is supposed to be. We are supposed to preach the Word. This means a regenerating/sanctifying release of the divine Word from the preacher's body (in this case Christ's nostrils and mouth) to the audience.
By doing that, we as human vessels, on earth, replicate the Son's heavenly ministry of continually speaking/releasing the divine Word from His nostrils/mouth toward the earth - traditionally called "The Procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son"
Want another example? At one point God wanted to channel the divine Word (a prophetic anointing) from Moses body to 70 elders. Do you see a problem here? I do. For Moses to do that, it would deplete his own supply! So what did God do? He first descended upon Moses' body in the Cloud, as to charge Moses' body with an extra supply, and THEN He released the prophetic anointing from Moses' body to the seventy elders (Numbers 11:25).
Even the Light radiating from Moses' face is an example of preaching the Word.
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Right back at you. Show me Scripture establishing that God uses immaterial magic to know our thoughts. But if Scripture is what you want:
"Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account" (Heb 4:13).
Are you denying what this verse says? Are you suggesting that God does NOT monitor our brain waves, or is unable to comprehend them?
Again, Occam's Razor. I just gave you a simple explanation of how Yahweh knows our thoughts, and the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.
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SongOnTheWind
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He won't give you any, he has never had any to support his claim.
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But your claim @JAL is, if God did not have to grow into being God, i.e. did not have to labor/suffer for anything to be or become God, if He just always was, etc, or just always had all of His Godly or God-like traits, etc, then He does not deserve praise and/or worship, or anything else we would give Him, for being God, etc...?
And I'm trying to understand all the reasoning involved behind that claim, etc...?
And the "why" of why you think that, etc...?
Now I am of the view that two members of the Trinity did have to learn, etc, but were always God, etc, but that, at least from the very, very beginning, etc, only the Father God alone never ever did not, or never had to, etc...
But I don't see what that has to do with any of them not being deserving or praise and/or worship as God, etc...?
So maybe you could explain a little, etc...?
And I guess I'll leave people with just this scripture to wrangle around and/or debate, etc, a scripture that not very many like to ever bring up, etc...
Hebrews 5:8-9- "Though He (Jesus Christ) was a (the) Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered (went through). And (after) having been perfected, He became the author (messenger) of eternal salvation (life) to all who obey Him."
God Bless!
And I'm trying to understand all the reasoning involved behind that claim, etc...?
And the "why" of why you think that, etc...?
Now I am of the view that two members of the Trinity did have to learn, etc, but were always God, etc, but that, at least from the very, very beginning, etc, only the Father God alone never ever did not, or never had to, etc...
But I don't see what that has to do with any of them not being deserving or praise and/or worship as God, etc...?
So maybe you could explain a little, etc...?
And I guess I'll leave people with just this scripture to wrangle around and/or debate, etc, a scripture that not very many like to ever bring up, etc...
Hebrews 5:8-9- "Though He (Jesus Christ) was a (the) Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered (went through). And (after) having been perfected, He became the author (messenger) of eternal salvation (life) to all who obey Him."
God Bless!
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renniks
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If God is monitoring our brain waves, why would he have to listen to do it? I don't think you understand what an infinitely powerful, all-knowing being can do. Of course God can see everything at once. But that's impossible in a strictly material universe because God could not be everywhere at once if he's a material being.
"I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love."
In a universe where everything is material and there's no spirit realm, how is Christ dwelling in my physical heart?
" Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."
How can God be with millions of people at once if he's a physical being? He's spirit, therefore he is not restricted by time or space.
"God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."
Your whole spiel just doesn't make any sense biblically.
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d taylor
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Ok backing up to a few previous conversations.
You stated that God should be praised for His labor and suffering in doing His work.
You say (at least this is the way i am reading your comments), you labor and suffer in your work, so a God receiving praise should like wise follow the same in His work.
That God could not create with out labor and suffering.
But are you not applying our experience of work we do now on a earth cursed by God because of sin. Where God states to Adam
“Cursed is the ground for your sake;
In toil you shall eat of it
All the days of your life.
Because work before sin was not cursed (or the environment work is done in). So God creating before sin came about, why should God have to suffer and labor in His acts of creating in a sin absent environment.
On the new earth we will work but the curse of sin will removed, so work will not cause suffering or labor. Will it not, be a pleasure to work.
Why is God not praised for His labor and suffering in Revelation 4
You stated that God should be praised for His labor and suffering in doing His work.
You say (at least this is the way i am reading your comments), you labor and suffer in your work, so a God receiving praise should like wise follow the same in His work.
That God could not create with out labor and suffering.
But are you not applying our experience of work we do now on a earth cursed by God because of sin. Where God states to Adam
“Cursed is the ground for your sake;
In toil you shall eat of it
All the days of your life.
Because work before sin was not cursed (or the environment work is done in). So God creating before sin came about, why should God have to suffer and labor in His acts of creating in a sin absent environment.
On the new earth we will work but the curse of sin will removed, so work will not cause suffering or labor. Will it not, be a pleasure to work.
Why is God not praised for His labor and suffering in Revelation 4
“You are worthy, O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist and were created.”
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist and were created.”
This verse is praising God for being creator, why is laboring and suffering not included.
So according to the Bible God deserves praise for creating all things.
So according to the Bible God deserves praise for creating all things.
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d taylor
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One comment/ question back to the feeding of the five thousand.
So you see this as God the Father actually taking matter and with his hands making a fish. Then as the disciples walked around to each group God would place the fish and bread, "He physically made", into the baskets.
You do not believe God just spoke these fish into the baskets, or God did not create these fish by the speaking of His word. Example God just saying let there be fish in each basket when needed.
So if you were in the presence of Jesus and a table was also present. and you asked for a fish and then on the table appeared a fish.
Do you believe this is possible, if so then do you see this as God making the fish (i guess in Heaven) and then causing the fish to appear on the table.
So you see this as God the Father actually taking matter and with his hands making a fish. Then as the disciples walked around to each group God would place the fish and bread, "He physically made", into the baskets.
You do not believe God just spoke these fish into the baskets, or God did not create these fish by the speaking of His word. Example God just saying let there be fish in each basket when needed.
So if you were in the presence of Jesus and a table was also present. and you asked for a fish and then on the table appeared a fish.
Do you believe this is possible, if so then do you see this as God making the fish (i guess in Heaven) and then causing the fish to appear on the table.
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d taylor
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Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
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d taylor
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An invisible God can still be a material GodStrong's has invisible as aoratos: unseen, invisible.
So do you believe that God is invisible, more of "unseen" better describes what verses like 1 Timothy 1:17 would be saying, than actually invisible.
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