Your God does not merit praise!

[JAL]

The only possible definition of merit is this:

Merit is a status achieved by freely choosing to labor/suffer for a righteous cause over an extended period of time.

Innate traits do not merit praise! (Sorry to have to point this out). Holiness is the sum total of Yahweh's perfections, hence God alone is holy (Rev 15:4). Since you fully orthodox Christians define Him as innately holy, your God merits no praise for the following perfections:
(1) Perfect character (kindness, patience, integrity, purity)
(2) Perfect knowledge
(3) Perfect dexterity/skills (e.g. surgically healing sick people, shaping the earth, forming the species, managing the earth, protecting individuals, etc.)

You can click here for MY definition of God.

You MIGHT could argue that your God merits praise for 1 day on the cross, but that claim is dubious for a couple of reasons:
(A) If His innate holiness moved Him to atone, does He really merit praise for it?
(B) Does 1 day of labor/suffering really merit ineffably superlative praise? After all, the rest of us already labor/suffer for 50 years (approximately 12,000 days).

In any case, I probably won't focus on the cross. The main issue for this thread is that your God merits no praise for items 1, 2, and 3 above.

 

[JAL]

By the way, please don't misunderstand me - I AM a Trinitarian.

 

[SamanthaAnastasia]

I don’t think everyone here is orthodox Christians.

One could argue that Christ actually suffered longer than one day on the cross. This is because he is part of the trinity.
Hypothetically, This would mean that his dimension is not bound by some fixed constant.
Our perception of time is linear.
The point is he could have suffered longer than that on the cross or when he died. We don’t know.

Also, your red pill/blue pill terms is concerning because the only people that really use that is certain types of people I’d rather not mention here.

 

[Neogaia777]

The only possible definition of merit is this:

Merit is a status achieved by freely choosing to labor/suffer for a righteous cause over an extended period of time.

Innate traits do not merit praise! (Sorry to have to point this out). Holiness is the sum total of Yahweh's perfections, hence God alone is holy (Rev 15:4). Since you fully orthodox Christians define Him as innately holy, your God merits no praise for the following perfections:
(1) Character (kindness, patience, integrity, purity)
(2) Knowledge
(3) Dexterity/skills (e.g. surgically healing sick people, shaping the earth, forming the species, managing the earth, protecting individuals, etc.)

You can click here for MY definition of God.

You MIGHT could argue that your God merits praise for 1 day on the cross, but that claim is dubious for a couple of reasons:
(A) If His innate holiness moved Him to atone, does He really merit praise for it?
(B) Does 1 day of labor/suffering really merit ineffably superlative praise? After all, the rest of us already labor/suffer for 50 years (approximately 12,000 days).

In any case, I probably won't focus on the cross. The main issue for this thread is that your God merits no praise for items 1, 2, and 3 above.

God, all three of them, have suffered for a just/holy/righteous cause all of their lives, etc, waiting for a future day when they would be no more, just like the rest of us, etc...

If we are truly sharers in His/Their sufferings truly, etc...

And if we truly are/were, then we know we will be also sharers in His/Their future glory when it truly comes finally also, etc...

It wasn't just His sufferings on the cross, etc...

And if you are not acutely aware of that, then I don't think you truly understand His or Their sufferings enough to be a true sharer in it/them, etc...

They have bore, very, very, very long, suffered very, very, very long, etc...

From the foundations of this world, etc...

God Bless!

 

[JAL]

I don’t think everyone here is orthodox Christians.

Let the chips fall where they may. If my argument doesn't apply to your definition of God, please ignore it.

One could argue that Christ actually suffered longer than one day on the cross. This is because he is part of the trinity.
Hypothetically, This would mean that his dimension is not bound by some fixed constant.
Our perception of time is linear.
The point is he could have suffered longer than that on the cross or when he died. We don’t know.

Fair point but, as stated, I'd prefer not to focus on the cross. I'd rather focus on the points numbered 1, 2, and 3 in the OP - the question as to whether God's holiness merited any praise BEFORE the cross. I mean, atonement was optional on His part, right? Had he opted not to atone, would His holiness merit any praise? Not if it is innate!

 

[JAL]

God, all three of them, have suffered for a just/holy/righteous cause all of their lives, etc, waiting for a future day when they would be no more, just like the rest of us, etc...

If we are truly sharers in His/Their sufferings truly, etc...

And if we truly are/were, then we know we will be also sharers in His/Their future glory when it truly comes finally also, etc...

It wasn't just His sufferings on the cross, etc...

And if you are not acutely aware of that, then I don't think you truly understand His or Their sufferings enough to be a true sharer in it/them, etc...

They have bore, very, very, very long, suffered very, very, very long, etc...

From the foundations of this world, etc...

God Bless!

See post #5.

In your view, is God's holiness innate, i.e. something He always had? If so, it merits no praise!

Or do you agree with MY view? In my view, He was not originally holy and thus had to freely choose to labor/suffer an ineffably long period of time to BECOME holy.

 

[Neogaia777]

See post #5.

In your view, is God's holiness innate, i.e. something He always had? If so, it merits no praise!

Or do you agree with MY view? In my view, He was not originally holy and thus had to freely choose to labor/suffer an ineffably long period of time to BECOME holy.

God has always been holy, but that's not all of what merits Him/Them praise...

What do you think is deserving of praise about Him/Them, etc...?

And I don't believe in truly true free will except for maybe only one from the very beginning, the Father God maybe only, etc...

They are God, and that's what makes Them deserving of our praise/merit/adoration/glorification, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

See post #5.

In your view, is God's holiness innate, i.e. something He always had? If so, it merits no praise!

Or do you agree with MY view? In my view, He was not originally holy and thus had to freely choose to labor/suffer an ineffably long period of time to BECOME holy.

If He was not always originally holy, then you must be saying He/They were "sinful" in some way, etc...

Are you saying that, etc...?

God Bless!

 

[JAL]

They are God, and that's what makes Them deserving of our praise/merit/adoration/glorification, etc...

He merits praise just because He is God? Evidently you disagree with my definition of merit?

Merit is a status achieved by freely choosing to labor/suffer for a righteous cause over an extended period of time.

What is your definition of merit?

Are you saying that God is a hypocrite and a copout holding to a double standard of merit? What I mean is, on judgement day, I'm pretty sure He will evaluate each of our merit according to the definition above (not for purposes of salvation, but for purposes of measuring our overall faithfulness in this life). I think you'll agree. And THAT is a tough standard, albeit fair. Are you saying He is the sort of hypocrite who measures His OWN merit by an entirely different standard, namely does He see Himself as meriting praise just because He is God?

In my view, anyone who claims to merit praise just because of innate traits or innate identity is a jerk! Take for example a prince who claims, "Just because I am a prince, born of a different lineage than you, I merit honor. You don't merit any honor." Do you agree with this prince? Is his argument valid, in your view?

 

[JAL]

If He was not always originally holy, then you must be saying He/They were "sinful" in some way, etc...

False dichotomy. Holiness as defined in the OP refers to three areas of perfection numbered 1, 2, and 3. I'll edit the OP by adding the word "perfect" to each of those three.

There are degrees of perfection. For example you might be a loving person but haven't had time to reach your full potential for love/zeal. That doesn't necessarily classify you a sinner.

 

[Neogaia777]

He merits praise just because He is God? Evidently you disagree with my definition of merit?

Merit is a status achieved by freely choosing to labor/suffer for a righteous cause over an extended period of time.

What is your definition of merit?

Anything anyone has come to earn or merit and/or deserve, etc...

And there are a lot of things that can do that, etc...

And I say that "because He is God" for "all that entails or means", which is "a lot", etc...

Too much to put into all the words it would take on here, etc...

Suffering for our sakes is only just one part of it, etc...

The "labor" part is very important as well, etc...

And that's still "not all of it", etc...

Are you saying that God is a hypocrite and a copout holding to a double standard of merit? What I mean is, on judgement day, I'm pretty sure He will evaluate each of our merit according to the definition above (not for purposes of salvation, but for purposes of measuring our overall faithfulness in this life). I think you'll agree. And THAT is a tough standard, albeit fair. Are you saying He is the sort of hypocrite who measures His OWN merit by an entirely different standard, namely does He see Himself as meriting praise just because He is God?

I think your getting way too emotional, and am not fully understanding what I am meaning, etc...

In my view, anyone who claims to merit praise just because of innate traits or innate identity is a jerk!

So, you think God is a "jerk"...?

So just what exactly do you think merits Him praise "for you", etc...?

Cause I'd strongly suggest you answer that, etc, if maybe only to just yourself and yourself only maybe, etc...

Take for example a prince who claims, "Just because I am a prince, born of a different lineage than you, I merit honor. You don't merit any honor." Do you agree with this prince? Is his argument valid, in your view?

Sometimes being born into a certain position does merit honor, or at the very least a certain amount of respect, etc, but if that King or Prince wants that loyalty to last, then He will also show His or Her subjects a certain kind of respect also, etc...

You don't think God does that, etc...?

You must have a very twisted view of God right now, etc...

I'll say a little prayer for you, etc, to clear up your confusion, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

False dichotomy. Holiness as defined in the OP refers to three areas of perfection numbered 1, 2, and 3. I'll edit the OP by adding the word "perfect" to each of those three.

There are degrees of perfection. For example you might be a loving person but haven't had time to reach your full potential for love/zeal. That doesn't necessarily classify you a sinner.

You are very confused, etc...

Your definitions are not the sole or only ones there is, etc...

I'll say a little prayer for you, etc...

God always is/was/has always been "perfect in love" from the very very beginning, etc...

Love does equate to zeal either, etc, like I said "very confused", etc...

I'll say a little prayer for you...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

False dichotomy. Holiness as defined in the OP refers to three areas of perfection numbered 1, 2, and 3. I'll edit the OP by adding the word "perfect" to each of those three.

There are degrees of perfection. For example you might be a loving person but haven't had time to reach your full potential for love/zeal. That doesn't necessarily classify you a sinner.

Are you saying God was somehow, maybe for a time, etc, ignorant, etc, and that sometimes covers a multitude of sins, etc...?

God Bless!

 

[JAL]

Your definition of merit is:

Anything anyone has come to earn or merit and/or deserve, etc...

Earned? Yes, sounds like my definition. But earlier you said:

"They are God, and that's what makes Them deserving of our praise/merit/adoration/glorification, etc..."

God merits praise just because of who He is? Without earning it? Aren't you contradicting yourself? Similarly you said:

"God always is/was/has always been "perfect in love" from the very very beginning, etc..."

He has always been holy? He didn't have to earn the state of holiness? But didn't you just admit that merit must be earned? Does God's holiness merit praise in your view and, if so, on what basis? Please don't tell me the basis is the cross - I'm referring to His holiness before the cross, and in fact the cross was an optional decision on His part. I'm referring to His holiness ASIDE from the cross.

I think your getting way too emotional, and am not fully understanding what I am meaning, etc...

I've offered an argument questioning the logical consistency of traditional views on merit. What do my emotions have to do with anything here? Oh that's right - nothing.

So, you think God is a "jerk"...?

No, I insinuated that YOUR definition of God would be a jerk, if He expects praise for His innate identity.

So just what exactly do you think merits Him praise "for you", etc...?

I was perfectly clear on this. 13 billion years MINIMUM of laboring/suffering to become holy. (Could easily have been 100 times that amount, we don't know, but science only apprises us of the last 13 billion years - that's all the history that we know of for sure).

Sometimes being born into a certain position does merit honor, or at the very least a certain amount of respect, etc, but if that King or Prince wants that loyalty to last, then He will also show His or Her subjects a certain kind of respect also, etc...

Yes there are laws that dictate a certain amount of respect for a ruler, but does his lineage/identity really MERIT more honor than the rest of us? I think the only way to put that question to proper perspective is to reflect on God's judgment seat. On that day, will God say to a ruler, "You deserve more honor in my sight than your brothers based on your lineage" ????

I'll say a little prayer for you, etc, to clear up your confusion, etc...

Seems clear that I ought to be praying about YOUR confusion.

 

[JAL]

Are you saying God was somehow, maybe for a time, etc, ignorant, etc, and that sometimes covers a multitude of sins, etc...?

God Bless!

Huh? Where did I say God was a sinner? And what has ignorance got to do with sinning?

 

[mmksparbud]

To be worthy or deserving.

Pupils are rewarded or corrected, as they merit.

verb
5
2
To earn; deserve.


verb
3
1
In various religions, spiritual credit granted for good works.


noun
3
3
To deserve; be worthy of.


verb
2
0
Demonstrated ability or achievement.

Promotions based on merit alone.


You definition does not merit consideration. Maybe your God does not merit praise----mine most certainly does for the very reasons you've stated. He is a good and gracious God and as man, was the only good man. I find your statement offensive and will not add anything more to this conversation.

2Sa_22:4 I will call on the LORD, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies.
Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Psa 96:4 For the LORD is great, and greatly to be praised: he is to be feared above all gods.
1Ch 16:25 For great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised: he also is to be feared above all gods.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Dear OP - The very breath and energy to ask such an inane question has come by His Grace and Love alone.
How can we not praise for being...
You might like to read the end of Job - It sounds like somehow you have not connected with just how beautiful and Holy He is.

 

[JAL]

You definition does not merit consideration.

Very easy way to win a debate, right? Just refuse to consider what the other person said? Basically cover up your eyes and ears?

Maybe your God does not merit praise----mine most certainly does for the very reasons you've stated. He is a good and gracious God and as man, was the only good man.

Innately good? Let's consider two individuals born with innate hormonal constitutions due to genetic deformities (or simply due to a deliberate act of God).
(1) The first one is always kind because, due to the imbalance, he is incapable of anger, impatience, hostility, selfishness, etc. He is innately kind.
(2) The second one is the opposite. He is always unkind - innately so, not to any fault of his own - due to the imbalance.

Thus for purely innate reasons, one is more kind than the other. Are you saying that, on judgement day, God should classify the innately kind one as meriting more respect?

What is your definition of merit? In your view, do innate traits such as innate holiness merit praise?

 

[JAL]

Dear OP - The very breath and energy to ask such an inane question has come by His Grace and Love alone.
How can we not praise for being...
You might like to read the end of Job - It sounds like somehow you have not connected with just how beautiful and Holy He is.

Let's go back to the cross. Suppose the Father numbed Christ's nervous system, unbeknownst to us, in ways divesting the cross of all labor/suffering. Would the cross merit any praise?

I mean, you seem to be challenging my definition of merit. What is your definition, and how does it align with the cross?

 

[Neogaia777]

Your definition of merit is:
Earned? Yes, sounds like my definition. But earlier you said:

"They are God, and that's what makes Them deserving of our praise/merit/adoration/glorification, etc..."

God merits praise just because of who He is? Without earning it? Aren't you contradicting yourself? Similarly you said:

"God always is/was/has always been "perfect in love" from the very very beginning, etc..."

He has always been holy? He didn't have to earn the state of holiness? But didn't you just admit that merit must be earned? Does God's holiness merit praise in your view and, if so, on what basis? Please don't tell me the basis is the cross - I'm referring to His holiness before the cross, and in fact the cross was an optional decision on His part. I'm referring to His holiness ASIDE from the cross.

I've offered an argument questioning the logical consistency of traditional views on merit. What do my emotions have to do with anything here? Oh that's right - nothing.

No, I insinuated that YOUR definition of God would be a jerk, if He expects praise for His innate identity.

I was perfectly clear on this. 13 billion years MINIMUM of laboring/suffering to become holy. (Could easily have been 100 times that amount, we don't know, but science only apprises us of the last 13 billion years - that's all the history that we know of for sure).

Yes there are laws that dictate a certain amount of respect for a ruler, but does his lineage/identity really MERIT more honor than the rest of us? I think the only way to put that question to proper perspective is to reflect on God's judgment seat. On that day, will God say to a ruler, "You deserve more honor in my sight than your brothers based on your lineage" ????

Seems clear that I ought to be praying about YOUR confusion.

God doesn't have to earn anything, but the beauty of it is that He did, in so very, very many ways that I can't even begin to count or calculate, etc...

And if you don't see not even any of those, then you are lost, etc...

The audacity of just such a statement and question by you makes me want to pray for you, and pray for you "a lot", etc...

You still don't seem to be able to answer it even for your own self, etc...

Because you seem to be actually arguing that God is not deserving of anything from any of us, etc, and I sincerely hope to God that that is not what you think or are asking or are believing, etc, because if you do or are, then you are 100% totally and completely lost right now, etc...

And if you are not thinking or saying that, then I think you need to say so, right now, and tell us all "why" also, etc, cause that's what you seem to be saying right now, etc...

Anyway, Good day/night,

God Bless!