Your God does not merit praise!

[JAL]

But your claim @JAL is, if God did not have to grow into being God, i.e. did not have to labor/suffer for anything to be or become God, if He just always was, etc, or just always had all of His Godly or God-like traits, etc, then He does not deserve praise and/or worship, or anything else we would give Him, for being God, etc...?

And I'm trying to understand all the reasoning involved behind that claim, etc...?

And the "why" of why you think that, etc...?

Now I am of the view that two members of the Trinity did have to learn, etc, but were always God, etc, but that, at least from the very, very beginning, etc, only the Father God alone never ever did not, or never had to, etc...

But I don't see what that has to do with any of them not being deserving or praise and/or worship as God, etc...?

So maybe you could explain a little, etc...?

And I guess I'll leave people with just this scripture to wrangle around and/or debate, etc, a scripture that not very many like to ever bring up, etc...

Hebrews 5:8-9- "Though He (Jesus Christ) was a (the) Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered (went through). And (after) having been perfected, He became the author (messenger) of eternal salvation (life) to all who obey Him."

God Bless!

Picture two individuals:
(1) One is lazy sloth. Does nothing is whole life but says he should be praised just because of being a human being - just because of who he is.
(2) The other labors/suffers diligently to help people.

Which of these two persons merit praise? Isn't it obvious?

 

[JAL]

In his literal, visible hand? You constrict him to only operating in the realm of the visible. God is Spirit according to scripture. He's not normally visible.

No. God is not Spirit. The term ruach/pneuma means physical wind/breath. There is no plausible exegetical evidence for immaterial Spirit - that nonsense from a homosexual pagan philosopher named Plato.

 

[JAL]

One comment/ question back to the feeding of the five thousand.

So you see this as God the Father actually taking matter and with his hands making a fish. Then as the disciples walked around to each group God would place the fish and bread, "He physically made", into the baskets.

You do not believe God just spoke these fish into the baskets, or God did not create these fish by the speaking of His word. Example God just saying let there be fish in each basket when needed.

So if you were in the presence of Jesus and a table was also present. and you asked for a fish and then on the table appeared a fish.

Do you believe this is possible, if so then do you see this as God making the fish (i guess in Heaven) and then causing the fish to appear on the table.

Again, I do not believe in anything supernatural/magical. Nothing is created ex nihilo, there is only matter, and it is eternal, neither created nor destroyed.

If God wants to give you a fish or bread, He has two options:
(1) As a material being, He can assume the form of bread. This happened at the Last Supper for example. "This is my body..."
(2) He can take some ordinary matter (any matter in the vicinity for example) and shape it into bread or fish.

What He most certainly CANNOT do, in my opinion, is magically speak a fish into existence out of nothing. How would sound waves accomplish such?

 

[JAL]

He can also do a mixture of 1 and 2. Not sure if the Last Supper was a mixture.

 

[JAL]

“Cursed is the ground for your sake;
In toil you shall eat of it
All the days of your life.

Temptation always involves the agony of temptation (suffering). The curse perhaps introduced a different area of suffering/labor, and certainly intensified labor/suffering, but even before the curse we had to labor/suffer against the agony of temptation. This is all part and parcel of the fact that God wanted us to have free will, he wanted us to face temptation and overcome it.

Why is God not praised for His labor and suffering in Revelation 4

“You are worthy, O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist and were created.”
​

This verse is praising God for being creator, why is laboring and suffering not included.

So according to the Bible God deserves praise for creating all things.
​

Again, prior to Plato probably no one believed in things like innate knowledge or innate holiness. People assumed that if you had expert knowledge - for instance the knowledge to create/shape the earth - you MUST have labored/suffered to acquire that knowledge. Labor isn't always mentioned because, back then, it was generally presumed too obvious to need mention.

 

[JAL]

_​

An invisible God can still be a material God

Strong's has invisible as aoratos: unseen, invisible.

So do you believe that God is invisible, more of "unseen" better describes what verses like 1 Timothy 1:17 would be saying, than actually invisible.

Correct. God is inherently visible because He is material. But He is usually unseen because He hides Himself. In fact He doesn't much like letting ordinary light expose Him because it reveals His features less accurately than His own facial Light.

 

[JAL]

If God is monitoring our brain waves, why would he have to listen to do it?

Effectively this is a distinction without a difference.

I don't think you understand what an infinitely powerful, all-knowing being can do.

Infinity is not a specific/discrete number. Nothing infinite exists, therefore.

God could not be everywhere at once if he's a material being.

He has His hand on every particle of matter to monitor it and, as needed, regulate it. I'd say that's everywhere.

Immaterialism has no clear definition of omnipresence. It's really quite gibberish, especially if you try to reconcile it with Scripture.

In a universe where everything is material and there's no spirit realm, how is Christ dwelling in my physical heart?

Physically. I explained regeneration/sanctification earlier. Something which immaterialists admit they cannot explain.

How can God be with millions of people at once if he's a physical being?

At minimum, He is large enough to fill the universe (more or less sparsely), 100 billion galaxies. You don't think that's enough matter for Him to fill a few human bodies?

I gave you an example of how a material being fills a body (Num 11:25).

Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke with him, and he took some of the [Cloud] that was on him and put it on the seventy elders. When the [Cloud] rested on them, they prophesied--but did not do so again."

The same general idea of filling a body or vessel is captured here:

"Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle" (Ex 40).

He's spirit, therefore he is not restricted by time or space.

No, He's not. I have a whole thread refuting that, as I've linked to a couple of times now.

Your whole spiel just doesn't make any sense biblically.

No, immaterialism is what doesn't make sense. Matter is the only thing we know for sure - the only thing we can claim to understand. Everything else is gibberish - and unsubstantiated by Scripture.

 

[JAL]

@renniks

Another example of how a material being fills a body:

"They heard the sound of a rushing wind....They saw tongues like flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy [Wind]" (Acts 2)

That Fire/Wind is the fiery breath/wind of God's nostrils (see Psalm 18) - it is the same pillar of Fire/Cloud seen in the OT.

 

[JAL]

He won't give you any [Scripture], he has never had any to support his claim.

At least you are to be commended for your consistency. You consistently lie about me.

 

[JAL]

@renniks,

Acts 2 was a fulfillment of John the Baptist's prediction:

"He will baptize you with the Holy [Wind] and Fire" (Mat 3:11).

 

[SongOnTheWind]

At least you are to be commended for your consistency. You consistently lie about me.

Oh, did you actually post some scriptual references? My mistake, I must have missed them. Surely it would be an easy thing, just to quote them again, you know, for clarity's sake?

Please don't accuse others of lying just because they disagree with you, I'm sure others could think or say the same of you. None of us would like that though, and it's not very Christian-like, is it? After all, we are all after the truth, and not just consumed with the need to be right, right?

Be blessed, take care

 

[JAL]

@renniks

The divine Word (whether Wind, Breath, Fire, Cloud, etc) can assume any material shape He wants. Here's another example of a material God filling a human body, in this case taking the shape of a Dove:

"And the Holy [Breath/Wind] descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased." (Luke 3).

Did you notice that voices are material sound waves?

 

[renniks]

On the new earth we will work but the curse of sin will removed, so work will not cause suffering or labor. Will it not, be a pleasure to work

Exactly. And really, a lot of work can be pleasure now. Should we not be rewarded for work that we enjoy? His logic kinda escapes me.

 

[JAL]

Exactly. And really, a lot of work can be pleasure now. Should we not be rewarded for work that we enjoy? His logic kinda escapes me.

Really? I don't see the problem here. How does that statement by the other poster contradict my position? Again, by "work" on this thread I'm referring to the type of labor that induces suffering. Anything else is actually REST, even if it LOOKS like work.

 

[renniks]

No. God is not Spirit. The term ruach/pneuma means physical wind/breath. There is no plausible exegetical evidence for immaterial Spirit - that nonsense from a homosexual pagan philosopher named Plato.

Really? Plato invented it?
The Church Fathers, of course, agreed, and loudly declared the fact that God is an unchangeable, immaterial spirit who has an entirely simple (“incomposite”) nature—that is, a nature containing no parts.

"Our God has no introduction in time. He alone is without beginning, and is himself the beginning of all things. God is a spirit, not attending upon matter, but the maker of material spirits and of the appearances which are in matter. He is invisible, being himself the Father of both sensible and invisible things” (Address to the Greeks 4 [A.D. 170]).
Tatian the Syrian


Irenaeus
“Far removed is the Father of all from those things which operate among men, the affections and passions. He is simple, not composed of parts, without structure, altogether like and equal to himself alone. He is all mind, all spirit, all thought, all intelligence, all reason” (Against Heresies 2:13:3 [A.D. 189]).

Oh dear, that pagan Plato seems to have been a latecomer to the party.

 

[JAL]

Really? Plato invented it?
The Church Fathers, of course, agreed, and loudly declared the fact that God is an unchangeable, immaterial spirit who has an entirely simple (“incomposite”) nature—that is, a nature containing no parts.

"Our God has no introduction in time. He alone is without beginning, and is himself the beginning of all things. God is a spirit, not attending upon matter, but the maker of material spirits and of the appearances which are in matter. He is invisible, being himself the Father of both sensible and invisible things” (Address to the Greeks 4 [A.D. 170]).
Tatian the Syrian


Irenaeus
“Far removed is the Father of all from those things which operate among men, the affections and passions. He is simple, not composed of parts, without structure, altogether like and equal to himself alone. He is all mind, all spirit, all thought, all intelligence, all reason” (Against Heresies 2:13:3 [A.D. 189]).

Oh dear, that pagan Plato seems to have been a latecomer to the party.

Oh dear, Plato lived at 500BC. Fix your timeline please.

 

[renniks]

Effectively this is a distinction without a difference.

Infinity is not a specific/discrete number. Nothing infinite exists, therefore.

He has His hand on every particle of matter to monitor it and, as needed, regulate it. I'd say that's everywhere.

Immaterialism has no clear definition of omnipresence. It's really quite gibberish, especially if you try to reconcile it with Scripture.


Physically. I explained regeneration/sanctification earlier. Something which immaterialists admit they cannot explain.


At minimum, He is large enough to fill the universe (more or less sparsely), 100 billion galaxies. You don't think that's enough matter for Him to fill a few human bodies?

I gave you an example of how a material being fills a body (Num 11:25).

Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke with him, and he took some of the [Cloud] that was on him and put it on the seventy elders. When the [Cloud] rested on them, they prophesied--but did not do so again."

The same general idea of filling a body or vessel is captured here:

"Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle" (Ex 40).




No, He's not. I have a whole thread refuting that, as I've linked to a couple of times now.
No, immaterialism is what doesn't make sense. Matter is the only thing we know for sure - the only thing we can claim to understand. Everything else is gibberish - and unsubstantiated by Scripture.

So your god has a body that fills the universe but doesn't get in the way, isn't visible, and we can walk through it? How is that not immaterialism?

 

[JAL]

So your god has a body that fills the universe but doesn't get in the way, isn't visible, and we can walk through it? How is that not immaterialism?

Wow. Do I really have to explain this again? God hides Himself by manipulating matter - probably a million times faster than the eyes could hope to see.

As I said, even man-made computers can process millions of instructions per second.

This is the third time I've mentioned all this.

 

[renniks]

@renniks

Another example of how a material being fills a body:

"They heard the sound of a rushing wind....They saw tongues like flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy [Wind]" (Acts 2)

That Fire/Wind is the fiery breath/wind of God's nostrils (see Psalm 18) - it is the same pillar of Fire/Cloud seen in the OT.

And it not a material. You can't see it, or hold it, or even feel it unless you are spiritually aware. I've experienced this Spirit many times. It's not a material. More like a feeling or a sensation. Not physical but emotionally and spiritually discerned.

 

[renniks]

Wow. Do I really have to explain this again? God hides Himself by manipulating matter - probably a million times faster than the eyes could hope to see.

As I said, even man-made computers can process millions of instructions per second.

This is the third time I've mentioned all this.

Ummm, how does that explain anything? What matter? Air is matter? If God is everywhere he's either immaterial or he is everything. Sounds kinda new age. I think you're just making this stuff up.