Police are NOT hunting down black people

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Ringo84

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OP is absolutely correct: police aren't hunting down Black men.






They're waiting for traffic stops or for racist white people to call them in before they kneel on their neck for almost nine minutes and justify it after the fact with "B-b-but they were going for a gun! I was scared!".
Ringo
 
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muichimotsu

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All the blame for what we are or become is ours, each one of us can decide how much effort we are willing to put into life, our rewards are a result of our efforts, no one will ever achieve greatness while failing to take individual responsibility. In a nation that has had a black President and a Black VP it is hard to convincingly assert that our nation is systematically racist.
No one is denying individual responsibility here, you're strawmanning hard on that

And the presence of successful black people does not mean there aren't still discriminatory practices against them, you're cherry picking majorly in that line of argumentation. By the same token of saying, "Well, here are poor white people, it's not a race thing," as if that's in any way linked to the perception of a racial group as "prone to crime", which was never claimed to be white people.
 
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muichimotsu

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Awww....here I thought we could be cordial.



I could pull data from multiple cities if you want...Atlanta, Chicago, New York, and many many others.



I'm just asking you to consider....

10 years ago we were at record lows of violence and murder....dropping decade after decade.

At the same time, a pile of ignorant banal morons decided to start a 24_7_365 whiny campaign against the police because they had video of a tiny number of unfortunate incidents.

They haven't stopped and at this point....they've directly diminished the ability of the police to do their jobs effectively.

It's now costing lives. Arguably hundreds at this point. They're literally too dumb to see the damage they've done....or it's what they want.

But please, lend them your support. When the death toll reaches an unbearable level and people are begging for the police to return....I'll remind you that you the only real systemic problem is how easily the dumb accept easy vague answers to complex problems.
Ah, because I object to aspects of policing, I must be in the little camp you've shoehorned everyone that doesn't bow down to your ideas into. I can support law enforcement in principle while saying that in practice they have become militaristic, which is where we get the incidents you want to blame everyone else for instead of considering some internal issue within law enforcement as it has been shaped by various aspects, like the war on drugs, etc.

There's not a default of cordiality with someone that will defend a broken system and pretend that it's just isolated incidents rather than poor training from the ground up, especially in contrast to other countries.
 
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muichimotsu

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1. You said "perfecting the situation". That means perfect. You can't perfect the situation because your dealing with human beings. And you will never have perfecting relationships due to the the fact that we humans will always have extremist groups.

I retract that, though I'm skeptical you didn't edit that or otherwise misinterpret that word into it, when I was speaking about an ideal, not a perfect standard. We can improve, that has always been my argument, you seem to want to pin my position onto one quote when I've clearly stated it was not perfection in 99% of my statements, the 1% where I erred not the representation of all my statements. More cherry picking, what a shock

2. Better means building relationships, not tearing them down. Your sides rhetoric tears relationships apart and divides people. It does not build positive relationships. When you consistently blame and complain about a certain race you are divisive and encourage people to see others as their enemy who is holding them back.

Bull pucky, I'm not dividing anyone that isn't digging their heels in on authoritarian militaristic practices masquerading as "law enforcement". There is not a need to be this violent with criminals, it's more often someone that wants to have that rationalization as being a "good guy with a gun" that also happens to have authority and qualified immunity because of their badge.

I'm not complaining about only white officers, black officers do this as well, a white supremacist and white privileged society doesn't mean that all white people conform to a standard, same with black people, some will rebel against the status quo and some will conform because it protects their own interests and gets them advanced in society versus having any genuine integrity or compassion for people like them that are struggling.


3. You have no evidence for your claims. You have not presented any evidence of systemic racial problems that you claim exist.

Again, do you even understand what systemic means? We have to start with that before I bring forth evidence that you keep dismissing because you want to make it all about conscious choices when that isn't all we are as a society, there are aspects that don't have conscious decisions behind them, but ignorance and complacency.

4. You have not shown any evidence that white privilege actually exists and how it's systemic in holding black people back. This has been proven to you that it's not the case. Black people from other countries are very successful. That is proof that your systemic issue is false. If it were true these people would not be able to succeed. You have a false premise.

White privilege and systemic racism don't go hand in hand as if one causes the other, I never stated that.

Black people from other countries is you introducing an outlier to try and show the premise to be false, which is more cherrypicking fallacy.

You can succeed in a broken system if you have experience in another system entirely and are willing to sacrifice any sense of solidarity to get ahead in life. Or are legitimately ignorant of those issues, this doesn't have to be some either/or, you're splitting into black and white thinking (ironic)


5. You on the left absolutely have soft expectations of the black community. Your entire premise is built on the facts that blacks cannot succeed without white peoples help or bringing white people down. You do and say nothing to encourage black people that they can succeed. Instead you consistently offer excuses why they can't. You offer the same ole mantra of accusing us as stating that blacks are lazy. If that was so, why did I mention that they can be anything they want? We encourage them to pursue their dreams. What you do is tell them they can't because of the white man. You consistently beat the leftist drum of blaming instead of encouraging. Laziness is not the problem. The problem is they are constantly told by the Democratic party and the left that they can't. It's not that they are lazy. They don't pursue because they are lazy. They don't pursue their opportunities because they are told they can't succeed by the left due to other people standing in their way.

No, they can succeed by changing favoritism towards whites, both groups will get the fair access when there isn't the biases that treat blacks like they're going to be a "problem", same with the idea of being open to hiring disabled people, but never giving them a fair shake because they're "too much hassle to deal with"

They can pursue, that doesn't mean it will guarantee success given the situation you seem to want to deny because it makes you uncomfortable to think that there could be prejudices that manifest in a way you don't associate as racist with your narrow definition.

Encouragement does not come without warnings, otherwise you're encouraging naive optimism, which is as bad as harsh pessimism. You keep showing how needlessly polarized your thinking is, when I'm not making the claims you keep falsely attributing to me, or you take them out of context.

There can be problems and still encourage people to soldier onward, they aren't mutually exclusive. Trying to fix the broken system while moving forward in some way is not a contradiction, you're still insisting that people march lockstep with your voluntaryist nonsense, as if there can't be anything that poses a barrier to people's success based, in part, on how people perceive them based on the color of their skin or other stereotypes.

What exactly IS preventing more blacks from joining the middle class?\

Systemic lingering problems from redlining (which you apparently haven't learned about AT ALL), not to mention the war on drugs disproportionately affecting the black community, same with the for profit prison system disenfranchising them so they go right back into the prison system because they cannot get gainful employment and fail their parole hearings or the like.
 
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disciple Clint

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No one is denying individual responsibility here, you're strawmanning hard on that

And the presence of successful black people does not mean there aren't still discriminatory practices against them, you're cherry picking majorly in that line of argumentation. By the same token of saying, "Well, here are poor white people, it's not a race thing," as if that's in any way linked to the perception of a racial group as "prone to crime", which was never claimed to be white people.
as if that's in any way linked to the perception of a racial group as "prone to crime"
It is not helpful to avoid and evade the truth. The statistics are not subject to individual interpretation, they are cold hard facts. The first step in solving any problem is accepting that it exists. If I find that I hook the ball when I play golf, I have three options, I can pretend that it is not happening, I can blame it on some external factor such as my club or the wind, or I can accept that I need to correct my swing. If I do anything other than correcting my swing, I will continue to have the problem, which I can continue to blame on external factors.
 
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muichimotsu

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Your just ignoring the facts. Fact, blacks make up for roughly 12% of America’s population. Fact, blacks make up for roughly 50% of convicted murderers in our prisons. So how can you possibly insinuate that blacks are not more prone to violence than other races? And yes you are correct I don’t believe in systematic racism, it doesn’t exist. Systematic racism is what people have to resort to when they can’t provide any evidence of ACTUAL racism. Racism is dead in America thank God, or I should say that it was until the George Floyd incident. Now it’s completely blown out of proportion and the sad thing is that there’s nothing to suggest that George Floyd’s death was the result of racism to begin with. We have BLM and the media to thank for that propaganda stirring up the racial tension in America all over again. Are there racists in America? Yes, absolutely, but do they make up for a large percentage of America? No, absolutely not. Just going on how many people I know personally which is probably in the range of 500-600 easy I can think of maybe 3 or 4 people that I would say are racists which is less that 1%. I’d love to see some actual real examples of “systemic racism” because I believe it’s all just propaganda perpetrated by activists and the media.

Prone to violence entails a disposition which is the racist stereotype that one is trying to avoid in being fair minded and not assuming stuff about people based on race, especially with statistics as your only basis rather than considering socioeconomic situations that push people into these criminal acts

Systemic /=/ systematic, learn the term correctly before you dismiss it out of hand.

George Floyd was not the first incident of that nature, it's just the first one that really had major coverage and was less ambiguous in nature. You really think there weren't incidents of police brutality, going as far back as Rodney King?

Ah, because Trump totally didn't stir up any racial tension with his tone deaf privileged self generalizing all Mexicans as rapists? Or likely plenty of other generalizations and stereotypes he buys into because he's white and so rich he can get away with inciting violence at the Capitol because, "They made their own choice, I didn't tell them to attack directly,"

Maybe get back to me when you understand the nuance of explicit versus implicit racism, among other factors, otherwise I can't take you seriously with this idea that just because there aren't lots of people throwing out racial slurs that there still aren't racists that generalize people based on their appearance and association of a race with some monolith of criminals.

You can believe whatever you want, it doesn't mean you're right, because you're working from a flawed definition and vast ignorance, willful at that, about sociological factors in regards to crime and how it disproportionately affects some racial groups because of lingering things in society that we're moving forward from, but they don't just disappear in influences on us (blackface, minstrel shows, stereotypes about black people from them, like the ones for males, plus the Jezebel, Mammy and Sapphire for women)
 
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disciple Clint

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OP is absolutely correct: police aren't hunting down Black men.






They're waiting for traffic stops or for racist white people to call them in before they kneel on their neck for almost nine minutes and justify it after the fact with "B-b-but they were going for a gun! I was scared!".
Ringo
There are less than 20 questionable shooting of black people by police per year of those all but a handful are found to be justified. It is irresponsible to pour gas on a fire by making inflammatory statements that are nonfactual, unfair, and unhelpful .
 
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muichimotsu

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It is not helpful to avoid and evade the truth. The statistics are not subject to individual interpretation, they are cold hard facts. The first step in solving any problem is accepting that it exists. If I find that I hook the ball when I play golf, I have three options, I can pretend that it is not happening, I can blame it on some external factor such as my club or the wind, or I can accept that I need to correct my swing. If I do anything other than correcting my swing, I will continue to have the problem, which I can continue to blame on external factors.
Au contraire, statistics are easily spun to fit a preconception, that's one of the biggest problems with utilizing statistics with the naive trust that they are without any possible flaw of interpretation

Yeah, because comparing society to your golf game isn't disingenuous at all...
 
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disciple Clint

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Au contraire, statistics are easily spun to fit a preconception, that's one of the biggest problems with utilizing statistics with the naive trust that they are without any possible flaw of interpretation

Yeah, because comparing society to your golf game isn't disingenuous at all...
This conversation with you over many posts now has been very educational for me, I now completely understand why I do not under any circumstances want Critical Race Theory as part of the curriculum of any school in this nation. It is obvious that the damage that can be done by it is extremely difficult to correct.
 
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rjs330

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I retract that, though I'm skeptical you didn't edit that or otherwise misinterpret that word into it, when I was speaking about an ideal, not a perfect standard. We can improve, that has always been my argument, you seem to want to pin my position onto one quote when I've clearly stated it was not perfection in 99% of my statements, the 1% where I erred not the representation of all my statements. More cherry picking, what a shock



Bull pucky, I'm not dividing anyone that isn't digging their heels in on authoritarian militaristic practices masquerading as "law enforcement". There is not a need to be this violent with criminals, it's more often someone that wants to have that rationalization as being a "good guy with a gun" that also happens to have authority and qualified immunity because of their badge.

I'm not complaining about only white officers, black officers do this as well, a white supremacist and white privileged society doesn't mean that all white people conform to a standard, same with black people, some will rebel against the status quo and some will conform because it protects their own interests and gets them advanced in society versus having any genuine integrity or compassion for people like them that are struggling.




Again, do you even understand what systemic means? We have to start with that before I bring forth evidence that you keep dismissing because you want to make it all about conscious choices when that isn't all we are as a society, there are aspects that don't have conscious decisions behind them, but ignorance and complacency.



White privilege and systemic racism don't go hand in hand as if one causes the other, I never stated that.

Black people from other countries is you introducing an outlier to try and show the premise to be false, which is more cherrypicking fallacy.

You can succeed in a broken system if you have experience in another system entirely and are willing to sacrifice any sense of solidarity to get ahead in life. Or are legitimately ignorant of those issues, this doesn't have to be some either/or, you're splitting into black and white thinking (ironic)




No, they can succeed by changing favoritism towards whites, both groups will get the fair access when there isn't the biases that treat blacks like they're going to be a "problem", same with the idea of being open to hiring disabled people, but never giving them a fair shake because they're "too much hassle to deal with"

They can pursue, that doesn't mean it will guarantee success given the situation you seem to want to deny because it makes you uncomfortable to think that there could be prejudices that manifest in a way you don't associate as racist with your narrow definition.

Encouragement does not come without warnings, otherwise you're encouraging naive optimism, which is as bad as harsh pessimism. You keep showing how needlessly polarized your thinking is, when I'm not making the claims you keep falsely attributing to me, or you take them out of context.

There can be problems and still encourage people to soldier onward, they aren't mutually exclusive. Trying to fix the broken system while moving forward in some way is not a contradiction, you're still insisting that people march lockstep with your voluntaryist nonsense, as if there can't be anything that poses a barrier to people's success based, in part, on how people perceive them based on the color of their skin or other stereotypes.



Systemic lingering problems from redlining (which you apparently haven't learned about AT ALL), not to mention the war on drugs disproportionately affecting the black community, same with the for profit prison system disenfranchising them so they go right back into the prison system because they cannot get gainful employment and fail their parole hearings or the like.

1. Oh you've erred in a lot of of your statements not just the one. 99% of your claims and statements are not true or factual. Your misrepresenting yourself. Most of your claims and statement are opinions and opinions are not truth.

2. You misrepresent again with your LE comments. The whole "there is not a need to be this violent with criminals" is a broad generalized statement not bound by facts. What does this mean exactly. There are many times police need to be violent with criminals because the criminals are violent and dangerous themselves. Using "this violent" is proclaiming there is LOT of unnecessary violence used by police. There have been plenty of studies that prove this false. Police violence is found to be necessary in 98+% of the cases. That is NOT the broad problem that you proclaim. You are proclaiming a false premise. You do not support the police as you claim when you make statements like cops use violence because they want to be seen as a good guy with a gun. How ridiculous!

3. This is not a white supremacist society. You continue to fail to provide evidence for that.

4. Yes I know what systemic means.
systemic racism
We do not have policies and practices in our entire society that hold unfair advantage to some and unfair treatment to others.
The fact that 50% of blacks are middle class and blacks from other countries do very well is evidence of that. If it were so systemic we wouldn't have that. If there is any policies that hold blacks back it is the policies of the Democratic Party and their politicians. This again is proven by the fact that in the vast majority of places that have all the black problems have been run by Democrats for decades. Broken policies.

5. And you being divisive. Your entire message is a broad sweeping generalization of bad cops and bad white people. It sets people apart instead of bringing them together. It pits one group against the other to see the other group as the bad guy and the other as the victim.
 
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Ringo84

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There are less than 20 questionable shooting of black people by police per year of those all but a handful are found to be justified. It is irresponsible to pour gas on a fire by making inflammatory statements that are nonfactual, unfair, and unhelpful .

Oh OK. Good to know that we've found an acceptable number of unjustified murders of Black people so that we don't have to think too deeply about policing.

Too bad about those unjustified murders, but hey - wouldn't want middle-class white suburbanites to be too uncomfortable!
Ringo
 
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rjs330

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Au contraire, statistics are easily spun to fit a preconception, that's one of the biggest problems with utilizing statistics with the naive trust that they are without any possible flaw of interpretation

Yeah, because comparing society to your golf game isn't disingenuous at all...

So statistics that prove beyond doubt that it isn't the problem you proclaim are spin? So as long as it is the truth and doesn't agree with your personal world view it must be spin. When you are so closed minded and so stuck there is nothing that could be said to change your mind. I don't what the point is about talking to you. It's like we can prove to you the sky is blue, but because you hold a personal belief that it is pink, because sometimes at sunset it is once in a while.

You even have black people showing you your view is incorrect and it doesn't matter.

You continue to have no evidence for you claims. We have provided you with evidence. You have provided none.
 
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rjs330

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Prone to violence entails a disposition which is the racist stereotype that one is trying to avoid in being fair minded and not assuming stuff about people based on race, especially with statistics as your only basis rather than considering socioeconomic situations that push people into these criminal acts

And what conditions do we really honestly have in America that push people to kill and be violent on the level that is happening? What are these Conditions that force people to violence cause there is no other choice?
 
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rjs330

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This conversation with you over many posts now has been very educational for me, I now completely understand why I do not under any circumstances want Critical Race Theory as part of the curriculum of any school in this nation. It is obvious that the damage that can be done by it is extremely difficult to correct.

Voddie Baucham is really good on this.
 
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rjs330

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Maybe get back to me when you understand the nuance of explicit versus implicit racism, among other factors, otherwise I can't take you seriously with this idea that just because there aren't lots of people throwing out racial slurs that there still aren't racists that generalize people based on their appearance and association of a race with some monolith of criminals.

Oh we understand the difference very well. We just don't care. Implicit bias is something every human being has in some form or another. I have an implicit bias against brussel sprouts.

But so? So what if we do have an implicit bias. How we behave is what matters. Also implicit racism is not automatic either. Blacks are not implicitly racist are they? Or are they.

Is everyone implicitly racist?

Implicit bias as a racial construct implies that all people are racist in their hearts. Some are worse than others. Some are actually white supremacists. But most white people aren't white supremacists, although they are still racists to a point. At least that's what we are told.

Yeah whatever.

What can we agree on?

1. Racism exists
2. In the past parts of this country were very racist
3. Black people were held as slaves which was a very bad thing.
4. Jim Crow was very very bad and blacks were heavily mistreated.
5. Redlining occurred.
6. The black community suffered from all those things
7. The police do use unlawful use of force
8. It would be really great if all police had training in Crises Intervention.
9. White Supremacy is bad and really has no place in a civilized society.

Can we agree on these things?
 
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Ana the Ist

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Ah, because I object to aspects of policing, I must be in the little camp you've shoehorned everyone that doesn't bow down to your ideas into.

Nah...more because you called me a "bootlicker".

I can support law enforcement in principle while saying that in practice they have become militaristic, which is where we get the incidents you want to blame everyone else for instead of considering some internal issue within law enforcement as it has been shaped by various aspects, like the war on drugs, etc.

I get that you can point out pictures of armored swat cars and blah blah...

But most of the incidents we're talking about involve a cop wearing a vest and carrying a pistol. That's not militaristic.

Furthermore, considering the hundreds of times they get shot at every year....if we want them to survive, we'll need to prepare them for that situation.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Oh OK. Good to know that we've found an acceptable number of unjustified murders of Black people so that we don't have to think too deeply about policing.

What's an acceptable number to you?
 
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disciple Clint

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Oh OK. Good to know that we've found an acceptable number of unjustified murders of Black people so that we don't have to think too deeply about policing.

Too bad about those unjustified murders, but hey - wouldn't want middle-class white suburbanites to be too uncomfortable!
Ringo
Are you at all concerned about the murder of black people in or major cities or is your concern limited to the 5 or less questionable events that involve the police. Looks very much like selective social conscience if 5 victims is more important than thousands.
 
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Ringo84

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Are you at all concerned about the murder of black people in or major cities or is your concern limited to the 5 or less questionable events that involve the police. Looks very much like selective social conscience if 5 victims is more important than thousands.

Says the person who was trying to say that since there were only a few police murders of Black people, it's nothing for us to worry our pretty little heads over.

When all else fails, projection.
Ringo
 
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rjs330

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Nah...more because you called me a "bootlicker".



I get that you can point out pictures of armored swat cars and blah blah...

But most of the incidents we're talking about involve a cop wearing a vest and carrying a pistol. That's not militaristic.

Furthermore, considering the hundreds of times they get shot at every year....if we want them to survive, we'll need to prepare them for that situation.

Exactly, how often do we have SWAT rolling down the street killing people. I wonder how many people are shot and killed every year by SWAT bursting into houses etc. I'm sure you're right. 99% of the people killed by police are killed by your front line patrol officer.
 
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