God Is a Physical Being
- Thread starter JAL
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In the meantime, do you have any first-graders nearby to help you with your reading skills? Because if I showed this passage to a first-grader:
"By the blast of your nostrils the waters piled up. The surging waters stood up like a wall; the deep waters congealed in the heart of the sea...You blew with your breath [ruach], and the sea covered them" (Ex 15).
I PROMISE you he would understand it correctly as "material breath/wind" instead of some nonsense about 'magical immaterial spirit'.
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When you find a first-grader, get him to help you with this passage as well:
"He breathed on them and, said, 'Receive the Holy Breath'" (Jn 20:22).
Here too, I PROMISE you that he will correctly read it as "material breath/wind" instead of some nonsense about 'magical immaterial spirit'.
Once you learn how to read the first-grade passages, maybe I'll show you some second-grade ones.
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Ask a first-grader to help you with Psalm 18, maybe starting here:
"In my distress I called upon the LORD; I cried to my God for help. From His temple He heard my voice, and my cry for His help reached His ears" (verse 6).
Without material ears, God would not be able to hear material sound waves (prayers). If you don't understand this, just have a first-grader explain it to you. He will help you understand that a person needs ears to hear.
Moving on:
"Smoke rose from His nostrils, and consuming fire came from His mouth;glowing coals blazed forth...at the blast of the breath [ruach] of Your nostrils" (verse 8,15).
God cannot smell material smells without some kind of nostrils. Our breath is quite warm, but in His case it's even hot enough to produce fire and smoke. I'm pretty sure a first-grader could explain these concepts to you.
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"So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them;male and female he created them" (Gen 1:27)
All first-graders who read this verse would instantly realize that God looks just like us. If this logic is too complicated for you to understand, I'm sure the first-graders can explain it to you. Once you've comprehended that logic, hopefully this next verse will be more clear to you (but if not, they can probably help you with this one too).
"As I looked, thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze. 10A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him" (Dan 7).
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Michael Garrett Andrews
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JAL, Could you explain to me how some of the ideas of Panentheism differ from your philosophy of materialism. I think it is a Hindu belief that states "Anytime you try to define 'God', it is something greater than your definition." In other words our natural , finite minds cannot comprehend the infinite supernatural. The bible kind of left me with the impression, that if not for Jesus, there would be no link between the natural and supernatural( for us now). I guess the Holy pneuma/ruach is now ( and i am in agreement with your definition of the holy ruach, that makes sense and clears a lot of things up, but i still have some questions about that i am currently exploring) the link. Which leads me to think the default position is we know God through this pneuma which sustains our very existence. (which would indicate the unforgivable sin would be to deny this very fact.)
Panentheism ("all in God”), from the Greek πᾶν pân, "all", ἐν en, "in" and Θεός Theós, "God")[1] is the belief that the divine pervades and interpenetrates every part of the universe and also extends beyond space and time. The term was coined by the German philosopher Karl Krause in 1828 to distinguish the ideas of Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel (1770–1831) and Friedrich Wilhelm Joseph Schelling (1775–1854) about the relation of God and the universe from the supposed pantheism of Baruch Spinoza.[1] Unlike pantheism, which holds that the divine and the universe are identical,[2] panentheism maintains an ontological distinction between the divine and the non-divine and the significance of both.
Panentheism ("all in God”), from the Greek πᾶν pân, "all", ἐν en, "in" and Θεός Theós, "God")[1] is the belief that the divine pervades and interpenetrates every part of the universe and also extends beyond space and time. The term was coined by the German philosopher Karl Krause in 1828 to distinguish the ideas of Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel (1770–1831) and Friedrich Wilhelm Joseph Schelling (1775–1854) about the relation of God and the universe from the supposed pantheism of Baruch Spinoza.[1] Unlike pantheism, which holds that the divine and the universe are identical,[2] panentheism maintains an ontological distinction between the divine and the non-divine and the significance of both.
- In panentheism, the universal spirit is present everywhere, which at the same time "transcends" all things created.
- While pantheism asserts that "all is God", panentheism claims that God is greater than the universe.
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Honestly I haven't studied panentheism. This post has the basics of of my cosmogony - you can read it and let me know of any questions or concerns. Meanwhile I'll do a quick lookup on panentheism to see if I can find any obvious differences.
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@Michael Garrett Andrews:
I started with this video on Weak Panentheism:
Christianity and Panentheism - YouTube
But it had ambiguities leaving me confused, for example vagueness on cosmogony - in what sense does the universe "emerge from divine energies"? And in what sense is "the universe in God"? Turns out that all panentheists are ambiguous on such issues, as stated in this article, "It is incredibly difficult to pin down exactly what panentheism is and how it differs from rival models of God." Therefore, "to commit oneself to panentheism is [quite possibly] to commit oneself to nothing" (ibid). That article is extremely comprehensive in attempting to explore the distinctives of panentheism but ultimately it ends with uncertainty.
Honestly I have neither the time nor the energy to try to unravel these ambiguities. My own cosmogony is incredibly simple and straightforward. If you have any questions about it, feel free to ask.
I started with this video on Weak Panentheism:
Christianity and Panentheism - YouTube
But it had ambiguities leaving me confused, for example vagueness on cosmogony - in what sense does the universe "emerge from divine energies"? And in what sense is "the universe in God"? Turns out that all panentheists are ambiguous on such issues, as stated in this article, "It is incredibly difficult to pin down exactly what panentheism is and how it differs from rival models of God." Therefore, "to commit oneself to panentheism is [quite possibly] to commit oneself to nothing" (ibid). That article is extremely comprehensive in attempting to explore the distinctives of panentheism but ultimately it ends with uncertainty.
Honestly I have neither the time nor the energy to try to unravel these ambiguities. My own cosmogony is incredibly simple and straightforward. If you have any questions about it, feel free to ask.
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Daniel Marsh
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You are funny friend, You have not proved that "As I showed on the other thread, immaterialism has an incoherent theory of omnipresence contradicting Scripture."
God is Spirit is plain. God is Omnipresent in Scripture is plain too.
God holding all things together is a work of God, not his nature attribute.
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You are very consistent about denying my conclusions without addressing the specific arguments.
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Michael Garrett Andrews
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Oh, ok. The only thing i know about Panentheism is that definition from wikipedia !! But i like the way you answered my questions !! Nice Angle. Anyway. After reading your post on your cosmology. I think i have been missing the point of the spirit being an actual physical breath only. Perhaps my confusion on this matter comes from the many bible verses and interpretations that paint it in a different light. In all honesty JAL, i'm the king of misinterpreting the bible. I was considering making a thread addressing that issue. It throws me for a loop how the bible can be absolute truth, but no absolute way to interpret it properly. Which in turn makes the Absolute truth blurry and subjective to individual interpretation. Perhaps you can shed some light on this for me !! Back on topic, Are you saying the spirit is matter? So we would receive a full bodilly resurrection after death, and not be cosmic spirits?! I think if i can wrap my head around your cosmology it will definitely clear up some common misconceptions arising from scripture. Thank you for being patient with me, I'm just a student trying to take in this view. I do like how you offer solutions to common problems that have plauged the church for years. And you stand your ground to help us work through these problems together. As we are in desperate need of a better understanding of the current state of affairs.
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God is material (i.e. tangible) and formed the universe from leftover matter in the Totality. This leftover matter was essentially dead in the sense of non-sentience like a plant or a rock (negligibly conscious).
- The universe (and our bodies) consists of such dead matter, arranged by God into atoms and molecules. God's own substance isn't so arranged.
- But He awakened unto full sentience SOME of the matter in order to function as souls, for both angels and men.
Thus I am a sentient soul placed within a dead, non-sentient body. As a physical substance, your soul will be visible whenever God stops hiding it. Example:
"I saw under the altar the [physical] souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God" (Rev 6).
The soul goes to heaven immediately - but resurrection of the dead body will occur at the Rapture, I presume.
One of my main arguments of this thread is that the English term 'spirit' (taken to mean immaterial substance) is a mistranslation of pneuma/ruach meaning material wind/breath.
The ancient Hebrew vocabulary, being limited, wielded wind/breath as a perfect term for the soul. Here's why. The term wind/breath describes a physical substance normally invisible - that's an excellent description for the soul! Thus all souls can be CLASSIFIED under the general category "wind/breath" (see Gen 2:7).
This is similar to classifying oxygen, helium, and smoke as different types of air/gas. The soul is classified in Scripture as one type of air/wind/breath.
Is this still unclear?
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Bible Scripture exists to prove that our Heavenly Father is not made up of material matter, but instead proves that He exists in a non-material dimension independent of the universe He created.
Heb 11:3
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
KJV
That idea that things which are seen, i.e. our known material universe, was not made of things that appear (i.e., material matter), meaning material matter did not create itself.
That is a natural law in physics. It basically says that material matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but only change its state (liquid, solid, gas, vapor).
That verse points to the fact that something outside... material matter, created it. That also means that something is unseen. That something we call The Invisible God.
That verse is pointing directly to a totally different dimension of existence other than this material universe we live in.
And there is a huge... amount of Biblical evidence for this fact.
Early on, in Ecclesiastes 12:5-7, we are shown two parts of our created makeup. We are shown that when we die, our flesh body goes back to the earthly elements where it came from, but our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. And putting this together with Matthew 10:28, our soul continues on after death of our flesh. Apostle Paul confirms this also in 2 Corinthians 5, and Jesus again in Luke 23:43, and in Luke 16 about Lazarus and the rich man. Even 2 Corinthians 12 where Paul related an experience of being "caught up" to the third heaven is further Biblical proof of the existence of a different dimension than this material one we live in.
So can God be immaterial yet physical? Yes, of course, as long as we do not try to attach material matter with that word 'physical'. Physical can mean simply an outward image of likeness, like the image of man, which our Heavenly Father has, even in that other dimension. It does not necessarily have to point to material matter.
Heb 11:3
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
KJV
That idea that things which are seen, i.e. our known material universe, was not made of things that appear (i.e., material matter), meaning material matter did not create itself.
That is a natural law in physics. It basically says that material matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but only change its state (liquid, solid, gas, vapor).
That verse points to the fact that something outside... material matter, created it. That also means that something is unseen. That something we call The Invisible God.
That verse is pointing directly to a totally different dimension of existence other than this material universe we live in.
And there is a huge... amount of Biblical evidence for this fact.
Early on, in Ecclesiastes 12:5-7, we are shown two parts of our created makeup. We are shown that when we die, our flesh body goes back to the earthly elements where it came from, but our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. And putting this together with Matthew 10:28, our soul continues on after death of our flesh. Apostle Paul confirms this also in 2 Corinthians 5, and Jesus again in Luke 23:43, and in Luke 16 about Lazarus and the rich man. Even 2 Corinthians 12 where Paul related an experience of being "caught up" to the third heaven is further Biblical proof of the existence of a different dimension than this material one we live in.
So can God be immaterial yet physical? Yes, of course, as long as we do not try to attach material matter with that word 'physical'. Physical can mean simply an outward image of likeness, like the image of man, which our Heavenly Father has, even in that other dimension. It does not necessarily have to point to material matter.
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