Background to Adventist Investigative Judgment thread

tall73 · May 4, 2021

Here is the thread for discussion.

Adventist Investigative Judgment

I am leaving this as a record of the discussion about the discussion.

----------------OP before editing:

While Seventh-day Adventists hold a number of distinctive doctrines only one of the fundamental beliefs of Seventh-day Advenstists is unique to that denomination. This is the the teaching of the investigative judgment beginning in 1844. Here is the fundamental belief statement:

https://szu.adventist.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/28_Beliefs.pdf

Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary

There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle that the Lord set up and not humans. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. At His ascension, He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and, began His intercessory ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the holy place of the earthly sanctuary. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the most holy place of the earthly sanctuary. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Lev. 16; Num. 14:34; Ezek. 4:6; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Heb. 1:3; 2:16, 17; 4:14-16; 8:1-5; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; Rev. 8:3-5; 11:19; 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:11, 12.)

This is an invitation to examine this doctrine, and see why Adventists believe it.

I would invite Adventists to explain, step-by-step, from the Bible how they reach the conclusions above, and especially how they get the date 1844 for Jesus entering the Most Holy Place.

The rest of us can then examine this and see if this unique Adventist teaching is biblical.

tall73 · May 4, 2021

To give an understanding of the importance of this doctrine to Seventh-day Adventists, Ellen White, who's writings Adventists consider inspired, stated:

The correct understanding of the ministration in the heavenly sanctuary is the foundation of our faith. 21LtMs, Lt 208, 1906, par. 4

And:

The subject of the sanctuary and the investigative Judgment should be clearly understood by the people of God. All need a knowledge for themselves of the position and work of their great High Priest. Otherwise, it will be impossible for them to exercise the faith which is essential at this time, or to occupy the position which God designs them to fill. Every individual has a soul to save or to lose. Each has a case pending at the bar of God. Each must meet the great Judge face to face. How important, then, that every mind contemplate often the solemn scene when the Judgment shall sit and the books shall be opened, when, with Daniel, every individual must stand in his lot, at the end of the days. All who have received the light upon these subjects are to bear testimony of the great truths which God has committed to them. The sanctuary in Heaven is the very center of Christ's work in behalf of men.
Great Controversy, p. 488

tall73 · May 4, 2021

While we wait for some to explain the doctrine, I will note some aspects I agree with so far from the fundamental belief statement:

There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle that the Lord set up and not humans. In it Christ ministers on our behalf,

Agreed:

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.

Hebrews 9:24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Hebrews 7:23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. 26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.

making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross.

Agreed:

Hebrews 10:11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Hebrews 7:27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Hebrews 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus.

Agreed:

Leviticus 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat. 16 So he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, for all their sins; and so he shall do for the tabernacle of meeting which remains among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 There shall be no man in the tabernacle of meeting when he goes in to make atonement in the Holy Place, until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself, for his household, and for all the assembly of Israel. 18 And he shall go out to the altar that is before the Lord, and make atonement for it, and shall take some of the blood of the bull and some of the blood of the goat, and put it on the horns of the altar all around. 19 Then he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times, cleanse it, and consecrate it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.

Hebrews 9:22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

The Liturgist · May 4, 2021

tall73 said:
While Seventh-day Adventists hold a number of distinctive doctrines only one of the fundamental beliefs of Seventh-day Advenstists is unique to that denomination. This is the the teaching of the investigative judgment beginning in 1844. Here is the fundamental belief statement:

https://szu.adventist.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/28_Beliefs.pdf

Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary

There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle that the Lord set up and not humans. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. At His ascension, He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and, began His intercessory ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the holy place of the earthly sanctuary. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the most holy place of the earthly sanctuary. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Lev. 16; Num. 14:34; Ezek. 4:6; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Heb. 1:3; 2:16, 17; 4:14-16; 8:1-5; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; Rev. 8:3-5; 11:19; 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:11, 12.)

This is an invitation to examine this doctrine, and see why Adventists believe it.

I would invite Adventists to explain, step-by-step, from the Bible how they reach the conclusions above, and especially how they get the date 1844 for Jesus entering the Most Holy Place.

The rest of us can then examine this and see if this unique Adventist teaching is biblical.

I was under the impression that the 1844 date was arrived at in the same way as the early Millerites; that basically, it amounted to a reinterpretation of the date arrived at by Miller and an alternative exegesis of the prophetic books from which that date was derived, due to the Great Disappointment. I am not sure if it is a doctrine that originated with Ellen White or not.

I am also not sure if that is the only uniquely Adventist doctrine. Specifically, the Adventist doctrinal position that the works of EGW are inspired prophecy would I think be specifically Adventist. Also, I am unaware of any other churches that teach that our Savior Jesus Christ, and the Archangel Michael, are the same person.

That doctrine is probably the one I disagree with the most, Christologically, because the Bible makes it clear that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man, without change, confusion or separation. To use Chalcedonian terminology, He is the Incarnate Word of God, the second person of the Trinity, and has a human nature and a divine nature united in one hypostasis. Neither the Nicene Creed, nor the Apostles Creed and the psuedo-Athanasian Creed, nor the Councils of Ephesus or Chalcedon, nor the Christological texts in the New Testament from which these were derived, say that our Lord also has an Angelic nature, that is to say, that He is also fully an angel. Indeed this seems contradicted by the full humanity of our Lord, since our Lord, being fully human and of the male gender, would in theory have been able to reproduce, and our Lord teaches that the angels presently (at the time he said it, before His resurrection) are like how we will be in the resurrection, which is to say non-reproductive.

Conversely, the Investigative Judgement doctrine does not bother me to the same extent; whereas Miller was obviously in error, and also disobeying the teaching of our Lord that no one shall know the time of His return, the Investigative Judgement assigns an alternate meaning to the dates arrived at by Miller.

I still disagree with it, however, because Jesus Christ, being God, is in His divinity unchanging; scripture affirms God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, which is to say, immutable, and also He is all-knowing and everywhere present. I don’t see why our Lord would need an “investigative judgement” before the Day of Judgement, because He already knows.

tall73 · May 4, 2021

The Liturgist said:
I was under the impression that the 1844 date was arrived at in the same way as the early Millerites; that basically, it amounted to a reinterpretation of the date arrived at by Miller and an alternative exegesis of the prophetic books from which that date was derived, due to the Great Disappointment. I am not sure if it is a doctrine that originated with Ellen White or not.

We will let Adventists discuss the doctrinal aspects so they don't accuse me of misrepresenting them.

As to the history, the notion of 1844 as a date did start with Miller's preaching, originally regarding Jesus' return around the year 1843. Miller had a number of proofs in this regard. One of those dealt with the 2,300 days of Daniel. Eventually they realized there was an error in calculation that led them to then look to 1844 (there is no zero year when passing from 1 BC to 1 AD, so date calculations were off a bit).

It was not Miller, but other figures who eventually settled on the date of Oct. 22, 1844 as the date for the second coming, as they thought it was the Day of Atonement that year. This "7-month movement" is usually attributed to two men, Snow and Storrs. Miller was reluctant at first, but eventually got on board.

Also, Miller thought the sanctuary would be cleansed in 1843/44, but thought that the earth was the sanctuary. This we know from Hebrews is not true, but he apparently missed that. He thought it would be cleansed with fire at Jesus' second coming. This then set the stage for those who became the Seventh-day Adventist Church to see a different meaning to the cleansing of the sanctuary in 1844.

You can read Miller's account of it all after the fact here:

http://centrowhite.org.br/files/ebooks/apl/all/Miller/William Miller's Apology and Defence, August 1.pdf

The notion of Jesus entering the Most Holy Place phase of ministry is usually accredited to Hiram Edson, who was crossing a cornfield the day after the great disappointment when he had this insight/vision. You can read about it here:

Adventist Review: October Morn

Later Crozier, etc. spelled out some aspects of this in a paper of the time. Ellen White endorsed that view of the paper.

Here is a quote where Ellen White refers to a vision which verified the position of Crosier. She notes the Day Star extra article.

A Word to the Little Flock

I believe the Sanctuary, to be cleansed at the end of the 2300 days, is the New Jerusalem Temple, of which Christ is a minister. The Lord shew me in vision, more than one year ago, that Brother Crosier had the true light, on the cleansing of the Sanctuary, &c; and that it was his will, that Brother C. should write out the view which he gave us in the Day-Star, Extra, February 7, 1846. I feel fully authorized by the Lord, to recommend that Extra, to every saint.

SDA defend hosts a copy of the Day Star Extra if you wish to read it.

http://www.sdadefend.com/Our Firm Foundation/Crosier-sanctuary.pdf

The aspect of the investigative judgment was not immediately held. They initially thought Jesus' stay in the MHP would be brief. Some began to propose that there would be an investigation of all cases prior to the resurrection of the righteous. But this took a while to be accepted. In fact, here is a statement in which James White was rejecting this notion some time after the disappointment.

James White's and Joseph Bates' writings in book: 'A Word to the Little Flock'

It is not necessary that the final sentence should be given before the first resurrection, as some have taught; for the names of the saints are written in heaven, and Jesus, and the angels will certainly know who to raise, and gather to the New Jerusalem.

I am also not sure if that is the only uniquely Adventist doctrine. Specifically, the Adventist doctrinal position that the works of EGW are inspired prophecy would I think be specifically Adventist.

Given that technically the belief is about prophecy other denominations hold that view, but the element regarding Ellen White in particular is unique, correct.

Also, I am unaware of any other churches that teach that our Savior Jesus Christ, and the Archangel Michael, are the same person.

Some others hold to this, though I think a difference is that most of those hold that Jesus WAS an angel, and Adventists hold that He is still the Son of God, but Michael is a name used for Him. Let's not get into that topic much, I want this to stay on topic. So if you want to discuss, create a new thread.

The Liturgist · May 4, 2021

tall73 said:
To give an understanding of the importance of this doctrine to Seventh-day Adventists, Ellen White, who's writings Adventists consider inspired, stated:

The correct understanding of the ministration in the heavenly sanctuary is the foundation of our faith. 21LtMs, Lt 208, 1906, par. 4

And:

The subject of the sanctuary and the investigative Judgment should be clearly understood by the people of God. All need a knowledge for themselves of the position and work of their great High Priest. Otherwise, it will be impossible for them to exercise the faith which is essential at this time, or to occupy the position which God designs them to fill. Every individual has a soul to save or to lose. Each has a case pending at the bar of God. Each must meet the great Judge face to face. How important, then, that every mind contemplate often the solemn scene when the Judgment shall sit and the books shall be opened, when, with Daniel, every individual must stand in his lot, at the end of the days. All who have received the light upon these subjects are to bear testimony of the great truths which God has committed to them. The sanctuary in Heaven is the very center of Christ's work in behalf of men.
Great Controversy, p. 488

The other issue is with the source of this doctrine, if it is from The Great Controversy, because that book contains historical errors concerning the history of the Roman Catholic Church and Western Christianity more generally, and Sabbatarianism, and seems to be a work written without an appropriate level of contextual reference to the Eastern churches. For example, although some missionaries were aware of them, EGW never wrote about the Molokans.

tall73 · May 4, 2021

The Liturgist said:
I still disagree with it, however, because Jesus Christ, being God, is in His divinity unchanging; scripture affirms God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, which is to say, immutable, and also He is all-knowing and everywhere present. I don’t see why our Lord would need an “investigative judgement” before the Day of Judgement, because He already knows.

Without trying to speak for Adventists, the statement makes plain that the purpose is not for God to know, but for "heavenly intelligences", ie. angels, etc.

The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus.

tall73 · May 4, 2021

The Liturgist said:
The other issue is with the source of this doctrine, if it is from The Great Controversy, because that book contains historical errors concerning the history of the Roman Catholic Church and Western Christianity more generally, and Sabbatarianism, and seems to be a work written without an appropriate level of contextual reference to the Eastern churches. For example, although some missionaries were aware of them, EGW never wrote about the Molokans.

Again, I want to be careful not too get off-topic. You started a thread where this fits nicely, and they are already discussing this topic. And I think you may want to examine this post where I link to an article from the White Estate that explains how the 1911 revision of the Great Controversy made changes to the text, citations, footnotes, and historical sources used. It is fascinating, but not on topic here.

Question for Seventh Day Adventist members

LoveGodsWord · May 4, 2021

tall73 said:
While Seventh-day Adventists hold a number of distinctive doctrines only one of the fundamental beliefs of Seventh-day Advenstists is unique to that denomination. This is the the teaching of the investigative judgment beginning in 1844. Here is the fundamental belief statement:

https://szu.adventist.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/28_Beliefs.pdf

Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary

There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle that the Lord set up and not humans. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. At His ascension, He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and, began His intercessory ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the holy place of the earthly sanctuary. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the most holy place of the earthly sanctuary. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Lev. 16; Num. 14:34; Ezek. 4:6; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Heb. 1:3; 2:16, 17; 4:14-16; 8:1-5; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; Rev. 8:3-5; 11:19; 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:11, 12.)

This is an invitation to examine this doctrine, and see why Adventists believe it.

I would invite Adventists to explain, step-by-step, from the Bible how they reach the conclusions above, and especially how they get the date 1844 for Jesus entering the Most Holy Place.

The rest of us can then examine this and see if this unique Adventist teaching is biblical.

Did we not already have this discussion some time ago where we looked at a lot of the scriptures and your objections in another thread somewhere else? The result of that discussion from memory was that you did not want to discuss the scriptures with me after some time and then wanted to discuss the EGW statements to which we then did, but after looking at the contexts you left out of these statements none of them were found to support the interpretations you applied to them. If you remember rightly you left that discussion seeking to make other threads about EGW statements when once investigated also did not say what you were claiming they were saying.

Anyhow due to time constraints my end due to work I will not be able to enter this discussion as much as I would have liked to but I would imagine this will be just another re-hash of the same materials and scriptures already addressed in a an earlier thread somewhere else so not worth my time to go through the same topic and subject matter already discussed with you.

GOD'S LAW AND JUDGEMENT TIME - ARE YOU READY?

This is only more repetition of claims of misinformation already discussed in some detail some time ago.

tall73 · May 4, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Did we not already have this discussion some time ago where we looked at a lot of the scriptures and your objections in another thread somewhere else? The result of that discussion from memory was that you did not want to discuss the scriptures with me after some time and then wanted to discuss the EGW statements to which we then did, but after looking at the contexts you left out of these statements none of them were found to support the interpretations you applied to them. If you remember rightly you left that discussion seeking to make other threads about EGW statements when once investigated also did not say what you were claiming they were saying.

We did have a discussion. And we did discuss the various Scriptures. And we did look at Ellen White's statements. And we did discuss the context of those statements. And if people go to that thread they will see your characterization is incorrect. I addressed all the Scriptures at length. And I addressed the context of Ellen White's comments. In fact, I posted 402 posts in that thread addressing your various points.

Eventually we were saying the same things again and again, as often happens when a thread runs its course.

However, this thread is for those who do not know the doctrine. So we need an Adventist to explain it from the first step to the last.

After all, it is not a straight-forward doctrine.

Anyhow due to time constraints my end due to work I will not be able to enter this discussion as much as I would have liked to but I would imagine this will be just another re-hash of the same materials and scriptures already addressed in a an earlier thread somewhere else so not worth my time to go through the same topic and subject matter already discussed with you.

You may participate--or not--as you wish of course.

I am sure some Adventist will want to explain such an important doctrine to the group that is here interested in the topic.

The Liturgist · May 4, 2021

tall73 said:
Without trying to speak for Adventists, the statement makes plain that the purpose is not for God to know, but for "heavenly intelligences", ie. angels, etc.

The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus.

That is interesting, but I have two questions:

Firstly, on a practical manner, why would God need to spend time actually communicating information to the Angelic Host? God is omnipotent and in scripture reveals, even to men with our limited mental resources, large amounts of information, instantaneously. And why should we assume that time in Heaven passes as it does on Earth, or that God and the angels experience time in such a manner as we do? Angels, being spiritual and bodiless powers, surely would not require that.

Secondly, why would God need to communicate this information to the angels? In the eschaton, we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ Pantocrator, and our Lord and God, in the person of the same Jesus Christ who is our savior and the only begotten Son and Word of God, will judge the living and the dead, and Himself separate the wheat from the tares. To the extent the angels are involved in the process, we again encounter divine omnipotence: why would God need to brief them in advance? It is not like the angels are a sports team that has to be briefed by the coach on its intended plays and strategies.

Furthermore, since the souls of the Elect comprise the Church Triumphant and are already with God in Heaven (recall the words of Christ to the Good Thief), it would seem that except for people who were still alive in, or born since 1843, their soteriological status would be at least somewhat obviously established to the angels).

tall73 · May 4, 2021

The Liturgist said:
That is interesting, but I have two questions:

Firstly, on a practical manner, why would God need to spend time actually communicating information to the Angelic Host? God is omnipotent and in scripture reveals, even to men with our limited mental resources, large amounts of information, instantaneously. And why should we assume that time in Heaven passes as it does on Earth, or that God and the angels experience time in such a manner as we do? Angels, being spiritual and bodiless powers, surely would not require that.

A good question! Adventists will have to let you know. But the truth is a lot of Adventists don't actually study the investigative judgment as much as the Sabbath. But your more dedicated ones, and usually the more conservative ones will. So hopefully one comes along that is willing to invest the time, as I know you have looked into the teachings of many churches and have an interest.

For my part I rather agree with James White's view prior to his accepting the investigative judgment. God already knows His own sheep. The names are in the book of life, so the angels would know as well. And I could tell you what most Adventists say, but again, I don't want to be accused of misrepresenting their view.

Secondly, why would God need to communicate this information to the angels? In the eschaton, we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ Pantocrator, and our Lord and God, in the person of the same Jesus Christ who is our savior and the only begotten Son and Word of God, will judge the living and the dead, and Himself separate the wheat from the tares.

An Adventist will let you know perhaps.

However, for my part, yes, we all stand before the judgment seat of Christ and give an account! In other words, we are present there and confess before the Lord. So I agree with an investigation, but it will be in person, before the Lord. For those not familiar, here are some of the texts:

1Co 4:4 For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.
1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

1Pe 4:5 but they will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
Mat 25:38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
Mat 25:39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Mat 25:19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
Mat 25:20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’
Mat 25:21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’
Mat 25:23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’
Mat 25:26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed?
Mat 25:27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
Mat 25:28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Php 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Php 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

tall73 · May 4, 2021

The Liturgist said:
Furthermore, since the souls of the Elect comprise the Church Triumphant and are already with God in Heaven (recall the words of Christ to the Good Thief), it would seem that except for people who were still alive in, or born since 1843, their soteriological status would be at least somewhat obviously established to the angels).

Adventists do not hold to that view. From their fundamental belief:

Death and Resurrection

The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later. ( Job 19:25-27; Ps. 146:3, 4; Eccl. 9:5, 6, 10; Dan. 12:2, 13; Isa. 25:8; John 5:28, 29; 11:11-14; Rom. 6:23; 16; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; Col. 3:4; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; 1 Tim. 6:15; Rev. 20:1-10.)

LoveGodsWord · May 4, 2021

tall73 said:
We did have a discussion. And we did discuss the various Scriptures. And we did look at Ellen White's statements. And we did discuss the context of those statements. And if people go to that thread they will see your characterization is incorrect. I addressed all the Scriptures at length. And I addressed the context of Ellen White's comments. In fact, I posted 402 posts in that thread addressing your various points.

Eventually we were saying the same things again and again, as often happens when a thread runs its course.

However, this thread is for those who do not know the doctrine. So we need an Adventist to explain it from the first step to the last.

After all, it is not a straight-forward doctrine.

You may participate--or not--as you wish of course.

I am sure some Adventist will want to explain such an important doctrine to the group that is here interested in the topic.

Sorry but we will agree to disagree and will let others decide if you claims here are true or not true. This is just another thread of misinformation in my view and more repetition of past discussion so do not have anything new to add that has not already been discussed elsewhere.

GOD'S LAW AND JUDGEMENT TIME - ARE YOU READY?

The above link is there for all to see.

tall73 · May 4, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Sorry but we will agree to disagree and will let others decide if you claims here are true or not true. This is just another thread of misinformation in my view and more repetition of past discussion so do not have anything new to add that has not already been discussed elsewhere.

GOD'S LAW AND JUDGEMENT TIME - ARE YOU READY?

This is there for all to see.

Indeed, it is there for all to see. And so is this thread. We will just have to carry on without you.

tall73 · May 4, 2021

While we are waiting for an Adventist to describe the teaching, we can relate a bit of history. Here is a chart used by the Millerite movement to illustrate Miller's proofs.

You can click on it for the full view to examine the various proofs.

This is from wikimedia commons and is in the public domain in the United States. File:Millerite 1843 chart.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

tall73 · May 4, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Sorry but we will agree to disagree and will let others decide if you claims here are true or not true. This is just another thread of misinformation in my view and more repetition of past discussion so do not have anything new to add that has not already been discussed elsewhere.

GOD'S LAW AND JUDGEMENT TIME - ARE YOU READY?

The above link is there for all to see.

It has been a while, however, I am not sure you actually went through the steps to spell out how you arrive at 1844 in that thread:

LoveGodsWord said:
Ok lets' take a step back my dear friend. Firstly this OP is not a detailed study on the 2300 day year prophecy and was never intended for that purpose. It is only an introduction to judgement with the intention to move into the 2300 day/year prophecy at a latter date.

In any case, you, or others, have the opportunity to do so now.

tall73 · May 5, 2021

We may have to wait a while for an Adventist to reply.

tall73 · May 5, 2021

While we wait we can look at an historic source that led to the development of the SDA doctrine. This is one of William Miller's proofs which indicated Jesus would come around the time of 1843. You can actually read a summary of all of them in the link below. This one looked at the prophecy of the 2,300 days, which is referenced in the Seventh-day Adventist Fundamental belief:

In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days

This version is taken from an 1844 book called An Original History of the Religious Denominations at Present Existing in the United States, compiled by I. Daniel Rupp Miller's 15 proofs (which had originally been published in tract form) appear on pages 681-691, in the section entitled "Second Advent Believers," by N. Southard, editor of the Millerite publication The Midnight Cry.

VII. I can prove it by the length of the vision which Daniel had, (viii. 1-14,) of the ram, he-goat, and little horn, which Daniel was informed was 2300 days long. Dan. viii. 13,14; "Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." And from which the 70 weeks were cut off, and fulfilled, the year of Christ's death. Dan. ix. 20-27. Then 70 weeks of years being cut off from 2300 days cut off from 2300 days, makes these days years; and 490 years being fulfilled in A. D. 33, leaves 1810 years to the fulfillment of the vision, which added to 33 makes 1843, when the sanctuary will be cleansed, and the people of God justified.

AdamjEdgar · May 5, 2021

I am a Seventh Day Adventist. I am not sure exactly what it is that this topic is attempting to understand? You quote our church fundamentals, clearly have access to E.G .Whites writings along with many other SDA church writings, as another individual has already stated, this has been thrashed out at great length in another thread and after one of you posting over 400 comments, you still got nowhere, why are you waiting for an Adventist to further explain it all to you?

This appears to me to simply be an attempt to find an Adventist who may not be able to answer the difficult questions or get "tongue tied" and that then becomes the basis for calling SDA beliefs a false religion!

The facts that matter are these:
we follow all of the 10 commandments (and are in the minority in this). The Old Testament Sacrificial system was not done away with at the cross in a manner where the rest of the moral law was also thrown out...fulfillment does not mean throw away! In logical sense, why would a teacher dedicate his life to teaching and correcting error, only to them throw out those same teachings? Its nonsense and destroys any credibility to do such a thing!

We recognise that since all mankind is still procreating on this planet right now, the plan of salvation via the various prophecies clearly isnt yet completed...so arguing stupidly about these things wallowing around throwing mud at logical Adventist doctrine that attempts to understand and explain why this is the case (ie that we are clearly still here) ignores that reality!

Jesus is fully God and Fully human.

The Holy Spirit is also fully an individual (for want of a better word) within Godhead, the same as the Father and the Son. Lying to the Holy Spirit (God) is punishable by death (ex carefully read about Annanias and Saphira)
Acts 5 vs 3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit
v4...You have not lied to men, but to God!”

I noticed a comment about disagreeing with the Adventist view of Michael the Archangel.

Revelation 12
7Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels. 9And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.10And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying:

“Now have come the salvation and the power

and the kingdom of our God,

and the authority of His Christ.

For the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down—

he who accuses them day and night before our God.11They have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb

and by the word of their testimony.

so my answer to you on this is to ask 2 questions,

If the Michal spoken of in Revelation 12 isnt Jesus, who is he?

Explain to me why God cannot also be an angel? He is all powerful and omnipotent, without restriction, what biblical evidence is there to support the theory that God cannot take on other forms? There appear to me to be a number of occasions where God himself visited men in a form that was very much like an angel and indeed even a man (Abraham encountered just one of those occasions prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorah, Jesus visited two men on the road to Emmaus after his resurrection, Mary thought both of the 2 angels were men and after turning around and seeing Jesus, thought he was a gardener John 20)

Clearly even angels take on human form regularly throughout the bible...why is there a restriction on what God can or cannot also do? (ie he cannot also be an angel). Lets also not forget the texts that specifically use the phrase "the Angel of the Lord..."
Who is the angel of the Lord? Are there not obvious biblical examples where that phrase is referring to God Himself?

My personal opinion is that Adventist doctrine is rather logical and not difficult to understand. It also does not require the use of E.G. Whites writings in order to make sense of either. Whilst i did study her writings at university on a low level, I do not use her writings at all for my beliefs. I have tended to shy away from them because it is true that many conservative Adventists in the past preached her in a manner that was very much interpreted as being the source of all truth in preference to the Bible itself. Even Ellen White disputed such a habit...she openly went against such thoughts. Her writings are simply used to further illustrate existing Biblical knowledge and understanding...not the other way around!

EDIT one other thought (may or may not be relevant but i cant help but add it in anyway as it has relevance to the comment God cannot also be an angel). The Spirit of God came upon the Virgin Mary and she fell pregnant. We say God is spirit...Jesus was born in the flesh 9 months later...a child. That means he had/has DNA...has anyone actually thought about the significance of that medical fact? Surely this is impossible based on some of the other restrictive comments about what God is capable of!

Background to Adventist Investigative Judgment thread

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