Was the 70th Week of Daniel Fulfilled during the First Century?

DavidPT said:

Even though Timtofly is hard to follow at times, I still doubt the point he was trying to make was meaning how you interpreted it.

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The point is when it started. In one of these threads I gave the Scriptures in Ezra and Nehemiah. Yes the 483 finished when God claimed in the fulness of time, the Messiah arrived. Galatians 4:4

"But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,"

Spiritual Jew said:

What is your basis for saying that it was poorly translated? The same Hebrew word translated as "covenant" in Daniel 9:27 is the word translated as covenant in passages like this:

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'b'riyth' H1285, means a compact, a covenant, a confederacy or a league. [league means a treaty or agreement]

It isn't normal for two people to make a covenant and in the case of Daniel 9:27, it is a peace agreement between the prince, referred to in the previous verse, as the invading prince and the many.
Also it will be a fixed term treaty, which God does not do. His New Covenant will be everlasting.

I believe the 'many' to be those who have violated the New Covenant and agreed to this 7 year treaty with the leader of the One World Govt.
As described in Daniel 11:32a

FaithWillDo said:

The meaning of those End-time verses should be applied inwardly and not outwardly as is commonly believed.

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Sorry, Joe, but your spiritual beliefs of prophecy, are of no earthly use.

Most of the prophesies can and will be literally fulfilled, just as the ones about Jesus first Advent were. We should knw what the Lord has planned to do and be prepared, at least mentally, for dramatic events.
Remember; the Lord did reset civilization by the Flood, and many plainly stated prophesies say: this time it will be by fire.

Christian Gedge said:

The last half of verse 27 is not part of the actual 70th week; it is the aftermath. IOW the prophet gives a broad picture of what was going to happen from the emperor Artaxerxes announcement down to Messiah and onward to the destruction of the temple 40 years later.


The midst of the 70th week was Passover, AD 30, and the actual end of the week was AD34. The event that marks off the endpoint was the gospel going to the Gentiles as promised. (Acts 10)

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It is not necessary to know a calendar year:

When the messiah was born
The age of the messiah was when he was cutoff
What was the calendar year the messiah was cutoff
When the messiah's ministry began
When was the calendar year the commandment to rebuild and restore was given

All that is necessary is:
1. the passage in the NT of the messiah's arrival in Jerusalem
2. the vision and prophecy of the little person, in v21-24 is time of the end.

DavidPT said:

but that we are never told what happens at the end of the final week, but are only told what happens up until the middle of it?

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We ARE told what happened all throughout the 70th week - however.....modern futurism ideas have confused people.

If a person goes by the Nicene Church timeline (70th week = 26/27 AD -------> 34 AD) then we can follow the New Testament to find out what happened those 7 years.

Peter gave a general summary of the 70th week recorded in Acts 10:37 (which, by the way, this was THE pivotal time).There are many clues to how things were changing at that time. Pay close attention to this one chapter.

People need to just read the New Testament (especially Luke and Acts) if they want to know "what happened the final week" of Daniel's 70 week prophecy. It honestly astounds me there isn't unity of belief on this important issue within the Christian churches.

Douggg said:

The issue is when will the Jews and Jerusalem embrace Jesus and the gospel of salvation, that the 490 years become complete.

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Peter, Andrew, Mary (the mother of Jesus), John the baptizer, John, James, etc.....are of the pertinent Jewish era of Scripture. Because of false expectations imposed on Scripture.....the actual point is completely lost. The 490 years were a definite time frame that's past......and Jesus fulfilled the prophecies that were promised in their time.

mkgal1 said:

Peter, Andrew, Mary (the mother of Jesus), John the baptizer, John, James, etc.....are of the pertinent Jewish era of Scripture. Because of false expectations imposed on Scripture.....the actual point is completely lost. The 490 years were a definite time frame that's past......and Jesus fulfilled the prophecies that were promised in their time.

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The 70 weeks are determined for the Jews and Jerusalem to embrace Jesus and the gospel of salvation. Has not been completed yet, because they have not. I don't know why that is so complicated.

Douggg said:

The 70 weeks are determined for the Jews and Jerusalem to embrace Jesus and the gospel of salvation. Has not been completed yet, because they have not

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You have the wrong group of people.

When Gabriel visited Daniel.....he was referring to the ancient biblical Israelites that were in the Mosaic covenant with God.

We wouldn't have Christianity if faithful ancient Israelites didn't "embrace Jesus" (I realize I've said that to you repeatedly....but it's actually the whole plot of the New Testament.)

Should we begin in Luke 1?

Look at Zechariah and Elizabeth.

Look at Mary and Joseph.

Here's an excerpt of Luke 1:

Spiritual Jew said:

Do you want to try to be more specific? How does any of that explain a gap in Daniel's prophecy?

Also, I asked you about your claim that there will be a second coming earthly ministry that ends with the 7th trumpet and how you came up with that? Do you have any explanation?

What is your understanding of how that verse (Daniel 9:24) will be fulfilled?

I believe Jesus accomplished all of those things listed in that verse long ago.

For example, when it talks about making an end of sins, it's talking about this:

1 John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

When it talks about making reconciliation for iniquity, it's talking about this:

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Jesus is the most Holy, so anointing the most Holy is talking about this:

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

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The church is not accomplished. There is still an ongoing harvest by the church.

Stephen does not mark the end to the church. The last half of Jesus earthly ministry is the Second Coming. It was not finished in the time after the Resurrection.

It is an earthly ministry because 144k disciples are chosen on earth to have a ministry with Christ just like the original 12 disciples. God does not chose them and then take them off the earth. They are chosen to work in the harvest along with the Angels. The point about Jesus Christ coming to earth in the Olivet Discourse is to finish up the 7th week. Jesus did not leave earth after, waiting for Stephen to be martyred.

That would mean the church finished at that point, and was out of here. Paul said, no way, the church still has more work to do before the Second Coming. 1991 years later and the church still has work to do. After that work is stopped, the last half of the 7th week will finish with Christ back on the earth. The 7th week is defined by the whole Revelation of Christ, both the first and second comings.

mkgal1 said:

You have the wrong group of people.

When Gabriel visited Daniel.....he was referring to the ancient biblical Israelites that were in the Mosaic covenant with God.

We wouldn't have Christianity if faithful ancient Israelites didn't "embrace Jesus" (I realize I've said that to you repeatedly....but it's actually the whole plot of the New Testament.

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A small percentage of the Jews became Christians. Most did not.

And the 70 weeks are determined on both the Jews and Jerusalem to embrace Jesus and the gospel of salvation.

That would mean the Jews in Jerusalem and the Jews everywhere else.

mkgal1 said:

We know the 70th week was finished when 490 had passed. The clock began in 457 BC (with the edict to rebuild Jerusalem) + 490 years (no year "zero") = 34 AD.

Futurism has obfuscated the Truth with this "gap" fiction and deflection away from Jesus, the Prince, and an obsession with some unknown antichrist.

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No, history gave us the gap. No one in the first century claimed there was a future point 2000 years from now. That fact is only true looking back on the last 1991 years. So futurist did not come up with the gap.

Any one claiming there is no gap, have not lived in the last 1991 years. They are still literally in the first century.

I agree, there is no future AC. There has never been an AC like people claim. There have been dictators and Christ haters. Satan will bring a beast to life who is anti Christ. Satan's frankenstein will claim to be some sort of Messiah.

Timtofly said:

I agree, there is no future AC. There has never been an AC like people claim. There have been dictators and Christ haters. Satan will bring a beast to life who is anti Christ. Satan's frankenstein will claim to be some sort of Messiah.

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Are the Jews looking for their messiah, someone other than Jesus?

Douggg said:

Are the Jews looking for their messiah, someone other than Jesus?

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By the time Christ is done with the final harvest, those left will be set in their ways. That any choose to be beheaded will not come because of soteriology.

keras said:

'b'riyth' H1285, means a compact, a covenant, a confederacy or a league. [league means a treaty or agreement]

It isn't normal for two people to make a covenant and in the case of Daniel 9:27, it is a peace agreement between the prince, referred to in the previous verse, as the invading prince and the many.
Also it will be a fixed term treaty, which God does not do. His New Covenant will be everlasting.

I believe the 'many' to be those who have violated the New Covenant and agreed to this 7 year treaty with the leader of the One World Govt.
As described in Daniel 11:32a

Sorry, Joe, but your spiritual beliefs of prophecy, are of no earthly use.

Most of the prophesies can and will be literally fulfilled, just as the ones about Jesus first Advent were. We should knw what the Lord has planned to do and be prepared, at least mentally, for dramatic events.
Remember; the Lord did reset civilization by the Flood, and many plainly stated prophesies say: this time it will be by fire.

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Keras,
The New Covenant that Christ brought is a spiritual covenant. The Old Covenant is an "earthly" covenant and it cannot save you. We must be changed from the "inside" and not from the "outside" as the old covenant tries to do. Our hope is in heavenly things (they occur within mankind) and not on earthly things. My understanding of prophecy is the only way of salvation. Your understanding of these prophecies are "outward" when you should be applying them "inward". There is no tribulation period, coming antichrist, rapture or visible second coming of Christ to this world. Christ has already been coming "within" those He is saving and it started before the generation He spoke to in Mat 24 passed away. Unless Christ comes spiritually to you again, you cannot be saved. It is His work. We cannot change ourselves from the inside.

Also, "fire" is a spiritual term for Christ's judgment. It is not literal. Why do you not believe Paul?

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Man's wisdom says fire is a hot flame that burns the flesh. Christ says fire is His judgment that teaches us righteousness from "within" us. Without Christ's judgment, no one would be saved.

Christ's words are spirit. They are not literal, otherwise the Jews would have understood and not crucified Him.

Joe

Timtofly said:

Any one claiming there is no gap, have not lived in the last 1991 years. They are still literally in the first century.

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No.....it's actually that we (those who claim there's no gap in the 490 years)are putting Jesus of Nazareth's literal and historical time on earth in context with both the OT prophecies and NT information given to us.

Historians of all different religious backgrounds acknowledge Jesus of Nazareth lived and agree with the timing. There's unity in the historical community. Why isn't there unity within the western Christian churches?

In my opinion.....one of the most thorough books written about Jesus of Nazareth and the religious and political world He lived in is Zealot by Reza Aslan (a Muslim born in Iran - converted to Christianity - and converted back to Islam.....married for years, BTW, to a Christian).

This video is less than 3 minutes - but describes the book, Zealot, and its significant importance especially for Christians:


BTW - "literally still in the first century"? I'm not sure how we're using 21st century technology to communicate with you, if we were "still literally in the first century".

Christian Gedge said:

The last half of verse 27 is not part of the actual 70th week; it is the aftermath. IOW the prophet gives a broad picture of what was going to happen from the emperor Artaxerxes announcement down to Messiah and onward to the destruction of the temple 40 years later.


The midst of the 70th week was Passover, AD 30, and the actual end of the week was AD34. The event that marks off the endpoint was the gospel going to the Gentiles as promised. (Acts 10)

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The idea is to stick to what is written in the text, and that there is zero written in the text in verses 25-27 that could possibly be meaning any of this that you said----"and the actual end of the week was AD34. The event that marks off the endpoint was the gospel going to the Gentiles as promised. (Acts 10)". But if I am wrong, then point out in verses 25-27 where anything written in them covers that period of time specifically? To show what I'm meaning, let's look at those texts.


Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.


Can the 3.5 year period of time you are referring to, that ends in 34 AD, be found within this block of text?

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself

Can the 3.5 year period of time you are referring to, that ends in 34 AD, be found within this block of text?

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Can the 3.5 year period of time you are referring to, that ends in 34 AD, be found within this block of text?

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

Can the 3.5 year period of time you are referring to, that ends in 34 AD, be found within this block of text?

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Can the 3.5 year period of time you are referring to, that ends in 34 AD, be found within this block of text?

Since that period of time obviously can't be found in those blocks of text, I am then assuming you are assuming it is found in this block of text instead---And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week. That covers an entire week, though. So, where in the blocks of text I just submitted do you see any of that involving an entire week, the fact you deny that all of verse 27 involves the entire week? Per your interpretation you can only produce half of that week, rather than all of it. Per your interpretation Daniel 9:25-27 is silent on what occurs in the last half of the 70th week, so you then need to add to the text things not present in the text.

FaithWillDo said:

The New Covenant that Christ brought is a spiritual covenant. The Old Covenant is an "earthly" covenant and it cannot save you. We must be changed from the "inside" and not from the "outside" as the old covenant tries to do.

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The new covenant in Christ is about the redemption of the soul and the body. The redemption of the body will be in the resurrection for them who have died in Christ. And the rapture for them in Christ alive at the time.

The law of Moses covenant did neither.

Timtofly said:

By the time Christ is done with the final harvest, those left will be set in their ways. That any choose to be beheaded will not come because of soteriology.

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The point I am making, Tim, is that the Jews are looking for their messiah, someone other than Jesus. That when he is anointed the King of Israel will be the Antichrist.

DavidPT said:

The idea is to stick to what is written in the text, and that there is zero written in the text in verses 25-27 that could possibly be meaning any of this that you said----"and the actual end of the week was AD34.

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The end of 490 years was 34 AD.

That's what I love about math - it's concrete......definitive.....not changed by opinion. Just focus on the math....and historical facts that are agreed on by historians. It's historical fact that's agreed on that Jesus was born in 4 BC.....was 30 years old in 26/27 AD......had a 3.5 year ministry.....and was crucified by the Romans for sedition against the Roman empire (that is who they reserved the executions by cross for - seditionists) in 30 AD (the middle point between 26/27 AD and 34 AD).

Luke's writing gives a lot of clues to timing based on the historical details he includes. Look at Luke 1:

Pay close attention to Acts 10. This is a "hinge point" (34 AD) where you can tell - if you pay close attention - things are changing.

Luke wrote that Peter said:

Douggg said:

The new covenant in Christ is about the redemption of the soul and the body. The redemption of the body will be in the resurrection for them who have died in Christ. And the rapture for them in Christ alive at the time.

The law of Moses covenant did neither.

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Douggg,
Our redemption is about restoring our relationship with God the Father. To do that, we must be changed spiritually. Our carnal nature must be destroyed (penalty of sin) and replaced with God's nature (the Holy Spirit). Only Christ can do this work. We contribute nothing.

As for our body, it will be like Christ's resurrection body.

The rapture is a totally ex-biblical doctrine as are most doctrines in the mainstream churches. The verse that speaks of being changed in the twinkling of an eye is referring to what happens at the moment of conversion. It is a spiritual event that cannot be seen with human eyes. I have already experienced this change and spiritually speaking, I am already dwelling in heaven. As for other spiritual states of being, the unbelievers are symbolized to be dwelling in the sea and the "called out ones" who have only received the Early Rain of the Spirit are symbolized to be dwelling on the earth.

Joe

FaithWillDo said:

The rapture is a totally ex-biblical doctrine as are most doctrines in the mainstream churches. The verse that speaks of being changed in the twinkling of an eye is referring to what happens at the moment of conversion.

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There is distinction made in 1Thessalonian4:15-18 between them dead in Christ (to rise first) and then them alive in Christ (to be caught up) together with them (in the resurrected dead in Christ).

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.